Remedial Pilot School: The NPC Awakening

[Monk]

Ok, there has been a lot going back and forth...NPCs are just right, NPCs are too hard...ZOMG I quit

After having tried out a few ships doing missions runs (mid-level assassination, deliveries, rescue and commodity supply) in a few different ships (FDL, Clipper and Python) I've come to the conclusion that I need to get back to basics and figure out what I'm doing wrong.

I survived okay in my A rated FDL and Clipper. The speed of those ships helped me out of couple tight spots. That Python, though, while putting up a great fight against a Dangerous Clipper (got it down to 10% hull before its shields came back and turned the fight) just couldn't take it and failed to run away.

I've been having my rear end handed to me on several occasions now (my rank is Dangerous but only through fighting brain dead AI) and am just feeling that I am doing something wrong. I try to use thrusters a lot, and sometimes use FAoff to get a faster turn but all my old tricks seem to fail now. When in my FDL, I got frustrated trying to get a Python in front of me...its turrets constantly draining my shields.

I do fine when I have the element of surprise, but when I'm carrying cargo of any kind or quantity and get attacked, it is often a losing battle from moment one.

I've not got the time to gather enough resources for engineer upgrades so I'm looking to my fellow commanders, to take a break from chastising folks who are complaining about AI and to provide some tips for engaging the now toothsome AI.

A few points I'd like to hit upon:

- How do I avoid fire? I'm dropping chaff spinning and thrusting all which ways but NPC turrets and gimbals still seem to paint my ship.
- What is your turning point for ditching a fight?
- Best ways to get your target in your sights without also setting yourself up for a direct attack

And anything else you all might know.

I love the difficulty of the new AI but I am having a bit of trouble figuring out how to best fight with them...any and all suggestions welcome and lets try to avoid any arguments specifically regarding their altered difficulty.

 

[shadragon]

On my Python I keep a couple of medium pulse turrets that can fire more or less continually on the target. That keeps their shields down and nails the more maneuverable targets as well. The Python has a bad turn rate and the turrets compensate. The other hardpoints I have gimballed pulses when they are directly in front.

 

[Wasp0]

May i recommend you try Seeker Missiles. They have had a moderate boost in 2.1 and are now very effective at keeping the target busy, and taking shields down or keeping shileds down, whilst your beam/MC's do the rest. I don't go looking for Combat with Missiles, but when trading or just doing loadsa missions i have a couple of hardpoints fitted with Seeker Missiles.

Works for me!

 

[Belthize]

I started to give an answer but in the process decided I actually have a similar question. The AI seems to mimic behavior at some level. Last night I had a fight where we started in a climbing circle race, each of us apparently slowing down and tightening the loop, then that devolved into an FA-OFf heading race where we both had very low velocity and were just rotating around for position. A quick boost and flip and we went back to a higher speed turn contest.

In retrospect during the heading race I should have rolled and tried to pitch around his longitudinal axis to see if he'd yaw (which is a loser), roll and pitch to match or fly off. His only good strategy is to try and roll and pitch as well in which case we're back into a FA-off heading war with just a few extra dimensions tossed in.

I eventually took him out but it was clear to me I had no strategy, I was just making it up as I went. So I'm partially replying to re-find this thread (in case there are useful replies) and partially replying to add a me too.

 

[mbar]

The adjustment I've made was to quit trading before 2.1 even dropped. Yeah, I know, there are people that have made some pretty interesting adjustments with Type-9 load outs. Though those load outs cost as much as an A-spec Python. I pretty much stick to flying fast combat ships now.

-If you are in a fast ship, you can quickly fly out of range once shields have dropped.
-I use my lateral thrusters and quick reverse thrusts to turn my ship to fire while avoiding their nose.
-pop chaff when getting hit.

 

[Cliffson]

Few things i've learned in the last few months from working my way up ti the python from a new start purely from combat.

1. Pip management.
Can't see your targer? 4 to eng rest as needed to charge caps.
Got a sight of your target and not ib their field of fire 0,2,4
Facetanking? 4,0,2
Running 4,2,0/2,4,0 as needed.

2.Avoiding fire,
easiest way is to never stay in front of your opponent. Here 0,2,4 pips come in handy as whenever your target is about to shoot boost with some lateral component and use fa off to turn as you zoom off. If done right you get sone time on target before dodging again. The hardest part is gettibg the amount of lateral/fwd right.

Another thibg to try is to constantly use lateral thrust, and spin to keep yourself as an erratic moving target.

3.Fa-off. Zero throttle is your friend, often this will drop your speed quickly as you turn, as soon as it hits the blue fa off to keep the good turn rate.

4.boost. Be careful not to over use it when trying to stay close, last thing you want us to boost away and give that annaconda room to turn round. Boosting also can lead to you getting stuck turning slowly if your ship has too much momentum.

5. Staying clise to big ships Later al thrusters and faiff (increases lateral max speed) are your friend. 4,2,0 till you get clise then 0,2,4 0,4,2 as needed. Bear in mind though chaff is less useful up close.

6. Turning wars. Remeber you can use lateral thrusters and boost while turning to widen or tighten the arc as appropriate depending on your ship vs opponents ship.

It also helps to visualise your relative positions, you want to move so that your opponent has more degs to turn than you.

Also preempt the pass if jousting and dodge/start turning early to get back on sight first.

7. Running away. Always have a highvwake plotted, do it as soon as you land from interdiction if not before.

 

[Monk]

Thanks for the tips!

Rep all around!

I think what it is coming down to here is proper pip management.

I'm quite accustomed to dropping everything in engines when I need to make a sharper turn but I tend to lose my focus as the fight drags on. Think I'm dedicating too much power to whatever system I'm using most at the moment. Figuring out how to split power in different situations appears to be a key factor.

Also, the boost while using lateral thrusters...I hadn't used that since the early days and had forgotten about it after the AI were lobotomized. I'm going to try that tonight on my Clipper and see what works and doesn't work for me.

Another thing I've noticed is that weight is oh so very important now. Before I had no problem taking a fully loaded clipper into a haz res and just rake in some bonus bounties before dropping off my cargo. Not anymore, a full laden ship, which has always been slower to turn, is definitely going to get you in trouble when you need your maneuverability the most.

 

[Barbs]

I've been having some recent success (also in a Python) with basically what Cliffson has said except I have been ignoring the engine pips and alternating between 4,0,2 and 2,0,4 depending on whether I am in an attacking position (pointing at the target) or a defensive position (not pointing at the target).

My loadout is 2 x 3C Gimballed Beams and 3 x 2F Gimballed Multicannons. I fire everything at once taking notice of what the power situation on the beams is and what the ammo situation on the multis is. I try to always have a weapon available. That is while multis are reloading I'm firing beams, while beams are recharging I'm firing multi cannons. When all is charged and loaded, I'm firing all I've got!

My usual attack pattern is shoot, pass, FA off, turn, FA on, shoot..... repeat.

I also find a good strategy for getting out of range is to turn towards the target and as I pass, hit the boost, max engines and boost away in the opposite direction to my targets flight path, while the other guy is forced to do a 180. Then as required, use Hyperspace to get away assuming you're not mass locked (only just learned that mass disruption from big ships only applies to a supercruise jump).

Question for those who know more about it than me... Does ignoring the engine pips affect my thruster performance and therefore my turn rates?

 

[Leper Messiah]

It also helps to visualise your relative positions, you want to move so that your opponent has more degs to turn than you.

This I think is the critical difference, some people are naturally good at this, some are good with the HUD display, some have VR to help (we REALLY need a head lock function like flight sims have). it's not just what manoeuvres the commander is doing, it's what the Ai is doing to counteract those manoeuvres. It's crucial for combat pilots to always know exactly where the enemy is, the moment you lose visual on the enemy is the moment you could lose the advantage.

I'm crap at it! LOL.

 

[Cliffson]

Question for those who know more about it than me... Does ignoring the engine pips affect my thruster performance and therefore my turn rates?

Yes, it effects your turn rate and max speed. However it is different for each ship, speed impacts are in my sig thread on agility rating. Turn rate though i don't have numbers for, some get much worse others barely notice. Note that as it impacts your speed it changes where your blue zone is.

Alexanderthegrape posted a thread with graphs for turn rates with pips i think so try searching for that.(i would but on phone).

Also i think there is an impact on acceleration/decelaration so getti g back to the blue zone time changes.

 

[Jacob Marshall]

This I think is the critical difference, some people are naturally good at this, some are good with the HUD display, some have VR to help (we REALLY need a head lock function like flight sims have). it's not just what manoeuvres the commander is doing, it's what the Ai is doing to counteract those manoeuvres. It's crucial for combat pilots to always know exactly where the enemy is, the moment you lose visual on the enemy is the moment you could lose the advantage.

I'm crap at it! LOL.

On mobile, so full quote

The head tracking is damn important. I have an ed tracker and notice a significant difference in my ability when I use it v when I don't.

Even though the A.I. Is linked to your input to a certain degree, being able to see how it's moving when it's up over your left shoulder is invaluable.

 

[hunvagy]

I think what it is coming down to here is proper pip management.

I'm quite accustomed to dropping everything in engines when I need to make a sharper turn but I tend to lose my focus as the fight drags on. Think I'm dedicating too much power to whatever system I'm using most at the moment. Figuring out how to split power in different situations appears to be a key factor.

For this I would have an unconventional solution, if applicable. Voice Attack. Then you just have to remember to say the correct command before the maneuver to have your pips set as you want them. Not as fast as doing it yourself, but at least you can concentrate on the fight instead of chasing the right buttons for pip settings.

 

[Siranui]

A few points I'd like to hit upon:

- How do I avoid fire? I'm dropping chaff spinning and thrusting all which ways but NPC turrets and gimbals still seem to paint my ship.
- What is your turning point for ditching a fight?
- Best ways to get your target in your sights without also setting yourself up for a direct attack

And anything else you all might know.

I'd recommend a couple of C2 pulse laser turrets. They'll be able to draw a bead more often than gimballed mounts, and do a nice job on shields. I'd never used them before, but they're really worthwhile now.

If you're running multicannon, don't e mean on ammunition: If it looks like the target is coming into scope, pull the trigger a second or two early to get the guns spooled up and running so they're already putting rounds downrange when the target gets into your sights. Likewise, keep an eye on the ammo counters and if they're running down to less than a dozen rounds in a gun, then waste the rest of the clip to get it reloaded, because pulling the trigger on a well-lined up shot to hear four shots and a click is really annoying!

As to 'when to run', I think that's the most crucial part. You need to be decisive and know when to just run, long before things start to deteriorate. Err on the side of caution, look at the skill level of the NPC pilot, make an assessment and decide right away. Don't 'give it a try', if you've lost similar engagements before and have a full cargo hold!

 

[Monk]

For this I would have an unconventional solution, if applicable. Voice Attack. Then you just have to remember to say the correct command before the maneuver to have your pips set as you want them. Not as fast as doing it yourself, but at least you can concentrate on the fight instead of chasing the right buttons for pip settings.

Yes, I love Voice Attack, just haven't set any commands for PIP management, yet. Further, I am often playing in the same room when my wife is watching The Bachelorette or some stuff, so that might be disturbing "Will you take this rose?", "FULL POWER TO WEAPONS!!!!"

Anyway, ok, so...


I picked up a bunch of kill so many pirate missions, they were against three factions in one system so it was a busy night. In my Imperial Clipper (7A shields and filled to the brim with boosters/LG MCs/MED Bursts), I spent most of my time focusing on FDLs to interdict. I am still mad about getting shot down by one earlier . Anyway, these things really tested my piloting skills in the Clipper. Each encounter with a Deadly or Dangerous FDL ended with me victoriously limping to station for repairs...but I was getting better...

Some observations...

- To avoid a turning battle, and if you have a good pitch rate like the Clipper try to get your self approaching the target while they still have their broad top side to you. I find 4 PIPs to engines with near constant boosting turning until you catch the NPC at a favorable angle was the best way to maneuver while avoiding fire. Once you got them in your sights, open fire (PIPs: 1, 2.5, 2.5), tap thrust down (or gradual thrust if analog), apply forward thrust (I've got a button for that) and pitch with target. I found this combination kept me on top of these pesky FDLs until they boosted off.

- Ram is your friend. If you find yourself in a battle of attrition (a bad spot for a clipper and its weak shields) and have the weight advantage smack em in the nose when they do that reverse flying crap. I keep a couple HRPs on so that I can handle a little damage.

- Drop the enhanced bulkheads and go lightweight. Removing the reinforced alloys (30 tons) shaves time of off the pitch rate. This is a key stat when facing more agile ships and is well worth it when you've got an eagle up your tailpipe.

- Don't hesitate to shield run. On several occasions with a few particularly nasty NPCs, I just boosted away when my shield was about to go. It would pop as I put distance, but with a Clipper you can make space quickly. After about 5km, pirate NPCs will disengage and take out their frustration on some traders/miners. Come back and hit em when they aren't looking.

- The Vulture! OMG the Vulture! I used to hate this ship b/c it made fighting too easy and boring. I switched to it after I was tired of getting bloodied in the Clipper. Now, it is still pretty easy to take NPCs, but at least I'm using the full capabilities of the Vulture. If you need to own a HazRes, the Vulture is my recommendation. After 1.5 hours of constant fighting (with some breaks to collect mats) I trucked home 2 million in bounties, plus cleared 6 missions.

I gotta say, I was on the fence about the new difficulty of AI but I played pure combat for 5 hours straight with nary a blink.(not since the early days had I been so engaged in the game) I'm in love with the new challenge. Practice is the name of the game. There is no poison pill for killing NPCs. I hate to say git gud, but man...that is what I did. Practice until you see it and feel it working. Make adaptations and try maneuvers you hadn't thought of before. Embrace the rebuy and for goodness sake fly something cheaper (Vulture).

EDIT: Disclaimer:On the Vulture, I was using a 2D FSD to conserve power and weight. This has a range of like 1.2 LY, it was just fortunate that the system I was operating in had them and could A spec them (hooray for High Tech). If I need a traveling build, I could knock down the thruster class and still be an effective fighter, though not as fun as A rate thrusters.

 

[Abil Midena]

For this I would have an unconventional solution, if applicable. Voice Attack. Then you just have to remember to say the correct command before the maneuver to have your pips set as you want them. Not as fast as doing it yourself, but at least you can concentrate on the fight instead of chasing the right buttons for pip settings.

I was thinking about this as well.

Since 2.1 dropped, I find I'm in 4/0/2 a lot. I fly a python, so staying out of their sights is near impossible. I still get in some firing time, but not having 4 pips to shields is suicidal now, and a little sad that I have to keep 4 to pips all the time in battle, or insta death ensues. (this is with 6A prismatic and 2x A scb's).

As the fight wears on, I find swapping to 1/1/4 often to inflict as much damage as possible.

When I am running away (usually when travelling and don't want to be bothered with another small bounty to stop/claim), I go 4/2/0.

Then when heading in to a station or leaving I'm in 1/4/1.

So that's really only 4 configs I use, and using a voice response would be great.

'speed' = 1/4/1
'defense' = 4/0/2
'run' = 4/2/0
'kill' = 1/1/4

I wonder if Voice Commander still works. Or if I can find it.

edit* I downloaded and am trying voice attack with the 4 commands above. Works awesome, now I have to remember to say it, not press it.

 

[Monk]

Hello Commanders...did some more combat training in the Imperial Clipper last night.

I think I have a great strategy down for smacking those higher rank FDLs out of your space!

It is also a lot of fun to do

So, in my last post I talked about 1, 2.5, 2.5 with gradual downward thrust and always pushing forward. This is great for staying on top of your target but only works for a few moments as the Clipper loses its momentum and starts to stall. If not careful, you'll end up completely stopped while your target whips around to lay into you.

I have a fix for this! BOOOOOOOOOOST. Lots and lots of booost

I keep everything as before, but now when I start to lose speed I boost, then boost again to get in sights. On a third boost, I use downward thrust for the first half of the boost while pitching up towards the target, then upward thrust for the second half to get my alignment. Voila, I am back in my PP busting position. All the while, the boosting and thrusting is keeping me out of the FDL's firing arc and I'm getting some shots in as we pass (the Large guns on the clipper can shoot pretty well above you).

The upward thrust on the second half of the boost is important. If you forget that, you will stall out (thought if you do, the Clipper will shortly grant you another boost to get out of it).

I can't tell you enough how much fun this was last night. Zooming around at high rates of speed, going so fast my enemy can't land a single shot....sweeping around and getting the shots that I choose to get...GLORIOUS

I was taking down Dangerous and Deadly FDLs left and right. I think I got 10 of them before I needed ammo, didn't lose shields or need an SCB (during combat) even once!

Man, I love this ship.