Remove "abandon cargo" function

[Mephane]

I understand that the "abandon cargo" function was introduced to allow legal cargo transfer, for example to hire other players for a task and be able to pay them without forcing them to use the black market (requiring one to be available in the first place). However, it has long since devolved into a tool for pirates to circumvent cargo becoming marked as stolen, sell their goods on the normal market, and hand in these stolen-but-not-flagged goods for community goals.

This also creates a situation where the pirate aims for a best-case scenario in which they only word their demand, the victim complies, and the pirate flies away without firing a shot, without a bounty, and not even stolen goods in their hold. Apart from a tiny fine for the interdiction, they are effectively completely clean, won't be bothered by police looking for contraband and stolen goods (unless the goods are generally forbidden in the jurisdiction), and have also no bounty on their head.

One could imagine even a bluff tactic where the pirate makes a demand, and if it is not meat, fires but deliberately misses, and lets the trader escape, then interdict again and hope this time they comply, and eventually give up. Such a pirate would never have to worry about the police at all.

If there were once again only the "jettison cargo" function that marks all canisters as stolen, this means the pirate once again has to face an outcome that always leaves them in a state where they have to worry about police; even if the target complies without even a shot being fired, at leas the goods are stolen, the pirate has to go to a black market to turn them into cash, and can be scanned and fined by police forces along the way.

A more complicated to implement solution than simply disabling the "abandon cargo" function entirely would be to disable it only after an interdiction. In this case, when a ship is interdicted, the abandon function is disabled automatically and only becomes enabled again when they leave the instance (for example by successfully escaping into supercruise or a different system).

 

[mistohise]

The idea on its own completely ruins the community goals where people transfer cargo between ships (see the massive efforts in the recent rare CG.)

There has to be some method for legitimate transfer, and if there is a method for legitimate transfer, pirates can try to get people to use that method. So removing this option would then be pointless.

 

[Robert Maynard]

The idea on its own completely ruins the community goals where people transfer cargo between ships (see the massive efforts in the recent rare CG.)

There has to be some method for legitimate transfer, and if there is a method for legitimate transfer, pirates can try to get people to use that method. So removing this option would then be pointless.

Players in Wings can drop cargo and it will remain legal for Wing members to pick it up.

 

[metatheurgist]

Disable the jettison ability if the ship is in danger, during the same 15s that you can't log off? That way the only way pirates can get their goods without consequence is to leave the trader for 15s, during which the trader can decide to comply or run for it.

 

[Mephane]

Disable the jettison ability if the ship is in danger, during the same 15s that you can't log off? That way the only way pirates can get their goods without consequence is to leave the trader for 15s, during which the trader can decide to comply or run for it.

I only talked about abandon, which drops cargo without marking it as stolen. Jettison would still be available at all times, but the pirate has to accept some legal risk now.

 

[YinYin]

Pirates already have the shortest stick.

The fact that they can get away clean is absolutely no reason to remove this.

 

[goemon]

if a pirate would stop me at a CG, demanding me dropping cargo, it would be my very own interest to drop him abandoned cargo -> it will help to reach the next tier.

if you remove that abbility, pirates will ask people to wing up ... and can shoot them afterwards without getting a bountie.

it isn't like piracy earns a million, and nobody can force you to press abandone if you don't want to.

 

[Robert Maynard]

if you remove that abbility, pirates will ask people to wing up ... and can shoot them afterwards without getting a bountie.

.... which would suggest that players should not be able to Wing up with players who have shot at them (or their recent Wing-mates).

 

[Mephane]

.... which would suggest that players should not be able to Wing up with players who have shot at them (or their recent Wing-mates).

Or who have interdicted them.

Generally, I don't like these loopholes where legal risk and consequences can be avoided by gaming the jettison/abandon mechanic or the wings mechanic.

 

[Robert Maynard]

Or who have interdicted them.

Good point.

 

[Siobhan]

Pirates already have the shortest stick.

... and the biggest tear ducts by all accounts.

and btw

:s/sti/di/

 

[YinYin]

Limiting legal cargo transfare to wings and winging to non hostile ships (wing up after interdiction won't work) would be nice for making the eject menu simpler and the whole process somewhat more automatic. And it would be cool to actually deal more with stolen cargo in case of piracy.
But without improving piracy in any way this would only reduce that activity further.

... and the biggest tear ducts by all accounts.

and btw

:s/sti/di/

I don't understand at all.

 

[Siobhan]

Limiting legal cargo transfare to wings and winging to non hostile ships (wing up after interdiction won't work) would be nice for making the eject menu simpler and the whole process somewhat more automatic. And it would be cool to actually deal more with stolen cargo in case of piracy.
But without improving piracy in any way this would only reduce that activity further.



I don't understand at all.

Quite

 

[NeilF]

I understand that the "abandon cargo" function was introduced to allow legal cargo transfer, for example to hire other players for a task and be able to pay them without forcing them to use the black market (requiring one to be available in the first place). However, it has long since devolved into a tool for pirates to circumvent cargo becoming marked as stolen, sell their goods on the normal market, and hand in these stolen-but-not-flagged goods for community goals.

This also creates a situation where the pirate aims for a best-case scenario in which they only word their demand, the victim complies, and the pirate flies away without firing a shot, without a bounty, and not even stolen goods in their hold. Apart from a tiny fine for the interdiction, they are effectively completely clean, won't be bothered by police looking for contraband and stolen goods (unless the goods are generally forbidden in the jurisdiction), and have also no bounty on their head.

One could imagine even a bluff tactic where the pirate makes a demand, and if it is not meat, fires but deliberately misses, and lets the trader escape, then interdict again and hope this time they comply, and eventually give up. Such a pirate would never have to worry about the police at all.

If there were once again only the "jettison cargo" function that marks all canisters as stolen, this means the pirate once again has to face an outcome that always leaves them in a state where they have to worry about police; even if the target complies without even a shot being fired, at leas the goods are stolen, the pirate has to go to a black market to turn them into cash, and can be scanned and fined by police forces along the way.

A more complicated to implement solution than simply disabling the "abandon cargo" function entirely would be to disable it only after an interdiction. In this case, when a ship is interdicted, the abandon function is disabled automatically and only becomes enabled again when they leave the instance (for example by successfully escaping into supercruise or a different system).

At the very least, isn't interdiction a criminal offense? ie: You'd get fined for that alone?

Thing is we need more ways to transfer stuff, not less. Personally I think we should be able to dock and transfer cargo (& other stuff/facilities) that way - https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=238907

Limiting legal cargo transfare to wings and winging to non hostile ships (wing up after interdiction won't work) would be nice for making the eject menu simpler and the whole process somewhat more automatic. And it would be cool to actually deal more with stolen cargo in case of piracy.
But without improving piracy in any way this would only reduce that activity further.

Hence my docking suggestion - https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=238907

if a pirate would stop me at a CG, demanding me dropping cargo, it would be my very own interest to drop him abandoned cargo -> it will help to reach the next tier.

Exactly what I'm doing at a CG now attempting to try out piracy.... ie: I ask for it to be abandoned, and then deliver it to exactly where the Trader was taking it anyway!

 

[Mephane]

At the very least, isn't interdiction a criminal offense? ie: You'd get fined for that alone?

Interdicting a clean target only yields a fine, a few hundred credits. You don't become wanted from that.

 

[metatheurgist]

I only talked about abandon, which drops cargo without marking it as stolen. Jettison would still be available at all times, but the pirate has to accept some legal risk now.

I meant abandon.

 

[Lestat]

I think they should remove abandon cargo. Make Interdiction automatically. Drop item as stolen

 

[Banana's_Are_Good_For_You]

Successful Pirates rule by fear.
If a Pirate can "persuade", even by their presence, that a player comply to their demands without firing a shot then they win.
A trader, who may only drop a small percentage of their cargo, may also see it as victory as they may still make a profit. Just not as much as they may have made if not intercepted.
They certainly won't lose a ship without there being a substantial knock on effect to the pirate who killed them, see below.
So, both parties win if Piracy is to be a valid role to play in this game...compared to the mess we currently have at this time where piracy equates to killing.
Currently though, pirates just kill players and it's killing that role as a viable means for ppl to play.

I would like to see a Pirate notoriety thing exist in the game. So, a player can gauge how a Pirate is likely to act.
Are they a known killer?
Will complying, even if a trader risks short changing the pirate in question, result in the pirate spitting the dummy and trying to kill them or will the pirate just take any free and more profitable stuff they can because they will be forced out of a system faster than if they didn't resort to murder.
This would add an element of game play to decisions a trader needs to make.
On the opposite side, killing players will also get the most response from any system, depending on their security. Do it for a second time and all systems that any minor faction in that system is a part of then they get the same reaction there. Do it again and it goes to Power level etc. so also relevant to the pirate.
Those pirates who choose to steal by hatch limpets would be worthy of an assault charge which is a world away from murder. Even if they do this in the same system, eventually it should catch up to them by way of notoriety.
It is a much lesser offence though.

Choices for both parties though so it becomes a mind game.

For this to work though, there needs to be changes to how the game currently works regards crime and punishment.
Murder should be the most serious crime and there should be a system wide reaction to it, depending on its security...yet more time dependant than easy farming environments where the security response is lacklustre and useless. Murderers need to be removed from systems so it would need to be similar to shooting at a station in 1984's Elite...best AI defence possible when they just kept on coming even if it seems unfair because there are plenty of other systems that can be hunted, from a pirates perspective so they should have to move on because there is too much heat. Just like when a trade route eventually dries up.
Systems with no security and sorry but silly to be caught there.

In essence, mimic current laws and how they change due to the degree of the offence regarding AI response.
Make players move on when they outstay their welcome due to bad behaviour or overly farming a trade route (which already exists in the game).
Balance.

Just throwing it out there.

 

[Malkevin]

Pirates already have the shortest stick.

The fact that they can get away clean is absolutely no reason to remove this.

Not really, player bounty hunters get the shortest stick - atleast you lot generally get paid for your job.

 

[Sylow]

The rules suggested here are much too complicated. A much easier solution would be: abandon only works within a 15 km range around a space station.

This gives everybody who wants to do a legal transfer enough working area, but prevents abuse for piracy. At the same time it would be easy enough to implement and if you want to reason why it is like that: legal transfer has to be certified, to do that you have to be in registration range and thus within sensor range of a station, which is allowed to certify the transfer.