Respect Players' Time

[Atebits]

Hello,

I realize that this is talking to the devil about how to do etiquette, but I thought it worth saying so as not to be on the same page as "development". No use contributing to something I loath.

The RNG in this game is a bit excessive. When I began we could buy a ship, then put modules in the ship, and know just exactly what that ship was going to turn out to be.

Today we buy a ship we like because of the cockpit or module space. Then we begin what I would describe as something more like abuse. The game abuses us so we abuse it. This would be RNGineers. RNGineers isn't really part of the game. It is more like a barrier to entry seperately it could be argued to be a replacement for what was formerly a game. Take your pick.

Since RNGineering has come into the game there really appears to be two games. We can call these "before" and "after".

Before:
Before RNGineering the game was exactly that. It needed a lot of development, but it was a GAME. You could log in, set a goal, and get on with it.

After:
After RNGineering "gaming" ended. Instead, "chance encounter" replaced "game".


Hypothesis:
RNGineering was introduced to excuse FDev from further development.

Evidence:
Lack of development to core game design post Horizons.


Long Term Prognosis of Game Based on Evidence Above:
Terminal


Current State of Elite
Pros~
What I see happening to this game is nothing good. Multicrew has definitely improved things immensely for allowing us to connect up with friends in an otherwise frequently daunting gulf. It also lets us meet new people, interact with them, and generally socialize - a big part of online gaming. This is the most positive part about Horizons. It is the first time a developer has recognized people want to play with friends and actually made that possible. Good work!

Cons~
RNGi
- RNGi is what I'm going to call all of the various aspects of Horizons that involve RNG.


What's Gone Wrong:
Since RNGi was added to the game we lost players like Kornelius Briedis and most other former content enthusiasts are like Isokix just bother to post a finding. Obsidian Ant isn't even bothering to update about new findings as 1they come up. In short, Horizons ejected from the game its original backers. The cause of this loss seems to be as a direct result of RNGi. It is as though Elite could have gone two directs with Horizons. A) it could have created a crafting system like other MMOs though which a person acquires a skill or profession. Then that person goes out into the world and acquires ingredients to the recipe. Slowly, they use the recipes they have to gain greater and greater skills. Eventually these lead to ultimate creations like Grade 5 FSD boosts, etc.

~ The Benefit
In a game which has crafting PLAYERS SHARE. Player A possesses a SKILL (modifying shields, for example) which Player B needs. Player A then is paid in cash or materials (usually a little of both) to upgrade or acquire some ability.
THIS MAKES PLAYERS VALUE ONE ANOTHER.

Elite Dangerous' Developers Chose Path B) The isolation of players from one another and the game itself.

Path B)
Path B is the choice to ignore and/or avoid the creation of GAMING content by reliance on RNGi. RNGi enables players to keep using the game few - already existing - content ad infinitum. That is, at least, until the breadth of the game's content has been played once through.

Elite doesn't have much content. Mining, Smuggling, Trading, Combat, and Exploration are all the content to be found within Elite. Smuggling is non-existent now so that can be x'd out leaving just four pieces of content.

Let's see how they are doing?

Well... before we do that let's see if they involve anything first that can further reduce them? How about RNGineering?
Right... okay so they are all subsets in the content of Horizons called "Engineering".

With Mining, Trading, Exploration, and Combat, all being a subset to the process of Engineering we can see that Elite Dangerous itself IS Engineering.

Thus, Elite Dangeorus is done as a GAME. It is now just a casino machine.


...

How did this happen? RNGi

1. RNGi created a situation where the developers gained "time" by slowing down our "time" to accessing the "game". However, it was not taken into account that RNGi (Post Horizons) involves every aspect of the game. Once someone has done Mining, Trading, Combat, and Exploration they have done every aspect of "Engineering".
2. Further, because "Engineering" involves Mining, Trading, Combat, and Exploration to enable people to better be able to Mine, Trade, do Combat, and Explore there was no added content in Horizons until Multicrew.
3. Thus, Horizons can be seen as a "gate" or "barrier to entry" to already existing content from 2014 to 2015.

4. This is really the killshot. Elite Dangerous, because it chose RNGi over Crafting has chosen to alienate players from one another.
- No player, for instance, can sit in a pilot seat and say, "Well, because the Engineering SKILL "Cloaking technologies" I can use this "skill" WITH your equipment to determine readings YOU (who do not have this "Skill") could not. Nope... we're all dumb-numb-morons utterly dependent on the RNGi.

RNGi is like God and the Devil. RNGi determines if the USS has the materials you need. RNGi determines if you find anything inside the USS. RNGi determines if you get an upgrade from RNGi the RNGineer. And RNGi has clones to be sure you unlock all of his friends. It begins to appear we are in a game designed by Mr. MeSeeks from Rick and Morty and the only solution is more Mr. MeSeeks: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sPRvewfTzOI


What happened to the game?

This is purely my own suspicion, but I think it got too big for FDev. They lost the ability to imagine how to PLUG TOGETHER the utilities in ships within the game to the rest of the game.

Here are so clear failures of imagination:
1. Pilots should be Apprentices to Engineers where from they learn an Engineering SKILL.
2. Pilots should be able to use the Skills gained from Engineers on other Pilots.
3. RNGi-RNGineering should produce Failures with a gain towards Success.
- Because that's how real life works. You work your butt off and fail, fail, and fail. But if you are doing serious testing eventually you'll have an epiphany or hard science the crap out of what you know towards something better.
~ Failures should produce Fail Stacks such that your current Engineering "tweak" is measured against the roll-outcome compared with the maximum possible roll for that upgrade. Thus, if you have a 48% jump roll and you produce a 38% roll it counts as a Failure. This Failure gives you 1 Fail Stack of some total, say 15. Thus, when you go to the Engineer again you have a +n% increase chance of success. If you should Fail again the next stack is +2 and so forth.
3. Pilots cannot trade Micro-commodities with other Pilots neither directly nor through a special purchasing market.
~ Why? Because FDev
4. FDev turned the entire game into the quest for RNGi's Blessing. This is an exceptionally rare item supposedly in the possession of Educating ED, basement dwellers, and RNGi's Smile... an even more exceptionally rare item of which nothing more is known than this name.

It appears that FDev just ran out of ideas as to what to do with the game. Things like... Why do Limpets require Cargo Space, but not AMFU? Why doesn't the Limpets take up space in storage bound to the Limpet Module? Why is the Fuel Transfer system a limpet system? Why do these limpets die? Why cannot we recover them and use again? Why do we have ships without enough module space for all that is required in the current continent? Why do missions not give Military Grade Alloys (for example) from systems whose economy is based around Military? Why do not Trade Missions chain sending players around the Bubble? Why don't Trade missions give credits equal to Trade Rank? Why is Smuggling so utterly pointless? Why is the 'game' now RNGi?

These are questions FDev have created. Once a player has played through Mining, Trading, Exploration, and Combat once over they'll start to seek out RNGi. If they are newer players they will find RNGi early and then wonder why what they were doing in RNGi is just exactly the rest of the game. Which raises the question... "Where is the game?"

My suggestion to FDev is to start learning how to make a crafting system because what you currently have is a RNGi that has entirely replaced the game of Elite Dangerous.



P.S.
This post was inspired by Unlocking Engineers over several MONTHS and then several dedicated weeks not finding the materials necessary for ONE upgrade ROLL.

If you ever feel like making Elite Dangerous into a game please inform us gamers. Until then, stop advertising this as a game. Possibly call it a prototype for a new form of Casino Machine. Maybe the platform for some sort of social engineering program wherein space-enthusiasm is garnered at the expense of optimism.

 

[Strangepork]

Hello,

I realize that this is talking to the devil about how to do etiquette, but I thought it worth saying so as not to be on the same page as "development". No use contributing to something I loath.

The RNG in this game is a bit excessive. When I began we could buy a ship, then put modules in the ship, and know just exactly what that ship was going to turn out to be.

Today we buy a ship we like because of the cockpit or module space. Then we begin what I would describe as something more like abuse. The game abuses us so we abuse it. This would be RNGineers. RNGineers isn't really part of the game. It is more like a barrier to entry seperately it could be argued to be a replacement for what was formerly a game. Take your pick.

Since RNGineering has come into the game there really appears to be two games. We can call these "before" and "after".

Before:
Before RNGineering the game was exactly that. It needed a lot of development, but it was a GAME. You could log in, set a goal, and get on with it.

After:
After RNGineering "gaming" ended. Instead, "chance encounter" replaced "game".


Hypothesis:
RNGineering was introduced to excuse FDev from further development.

Evidence:
Lack of development to core game design post Horizons.


Long Term Prognosis of Game Based on Evidence Above:
Terminal


Current State of Elite
Pros~
What I see happening to this game is nothing good. Multicrew has definitely improved things immensely for allowing us to connect up with friends in an otherwise frequently daunting gulf. It also lets us meet new people, interact with them, and generally socialize - a big part of online gaming. This is the most positive part about Horizons. It is the first time a developer has recognized people want to play with friends and actually made that possible. Good work!

Cons~
RNGi
- RNGi is what I'm going to call all of the various aspects of Horizons that involve RNG.


What's Gone Wrong:
Since RNGi was added to the game we lost players like Kornelius Briedis and most other former content enthusiasts are like Isokix just bother to post a finding. Obsidian Ant isn't even bothering to update about new findings as 1they come up. In short, Horizons ejected from the game its original backers. The cause of this loss seems to be as a direct result of RNGi. It is as though Elite could have gone two directs with Horizons. A) it could have created a crafting system like other MMOs though which a person acquires a skill or profession. Then that person goes out into the world and acquires ingredients to the recipe. Slowly, they use the recipes they have to gain greater and greater skills. Eventually these lead to ultimate creations like Grade 5 FSD boosts, etc.

~ The Benefit
In a game which has crafting PLAYERS SHARE. Player A possesses a SKILL (modifying shields, for example) which Player B needs. Player A then is paid in cash or materials (usually a little of both) to upgrade or acquire some ability.
THIS MAKES PLAYERS VALUE ONE ANOTHER.

Elite Dangerous' Developers Chose Path B) The isolation of players from one another and the game itself.

Path B)
Path B is the choice to ignore and/or avoid the creation of GAMING content by reliance on RNGi. RNGi enables players to keep using the game few - already existing - content ad infinitum. That is, at least, until the breadth of the game's content has been played once through.

Elite doesn't have much content. Mining, Smuggling, Trading, Combat, and Exploration are all the content to be found within Elite. Smuggling is non-existent now so that can be x'd out leaving just four pieces of content.

Let's see how they are doing?

Well... before we do that let's see if they involve anything first that can further reduce them? How about RNGineering?
Right... okay so they are all subsets in the content of Horizons called "Engineering".

With Mining, Trading, Exploration, and Combat, all being a subset to the process of Engineering we can see that Elite Dangerous itself IS Engineering.

Thus, Elite Dangeorus is done as a GAME. It is now just a casino machine.


...

How did this happen? RNGi

1. RNGi created a situation where the developers gained "time" by slowing down our "time" to accessing the "game". However, it was not taken into account that RNGi (Post Horizons) involves every aspect of the game. Once someone has done Mining, Trading, Combat, and Exploration they have done every aspect of "Engineering".
2. Further, because "Engineering" involves Mining, Trading, Combat, and Exploration to enable people to better be able to Mine, Trade, do Combat, and Explore there was no added content in Horizons until Multicrew.
3. Thus, Horizons can be seen as a "gate" or "barrier to entry" to already existing content from 2014 to 2015.

4. This is really the killshot. Elite Dangerous, because it chose RNGi over Crafting has chosen to alienate players from one another.
- No player, for instance, can sit in a pilot seat and say, "Well, because the Engineering SKILL "Cloaking technologies" I can use this "skill" WITH your equipment to determine readings YOU (who do not have this "Skill") could not. Nope... we're all dumb-numb-morons utterly dependent on the RNGi.

RNGi is like God and the Devil. RNGi determines if the USS has the materials you need. RNGi determines if you find anything inside the USS. RNGi determines if you get an upgrade from RNGi the RNGineer. And RNGi has clones to be sure you unlock all of his friends. It begins to appear we are in a game designed by Mr. MeSeeks from Rick and Morty and the only solution is more Mr. MeSeeks: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sPRvewfTzOI


What happened to the game?

This is purely my own suspicion, but I think it got too big for FDev. They lost the ability to imagine how to PLUG TOGETHER the utilities in ships within the game to the rest of the game.

Here are so clear failures of imagination:
1. Pilots should be Apprentices to Engineers where from they learn an Engineering SKILL.
2. Pilots should be able to use the Skills gained from Engineers on other Pilots.
3. RNGi-RNGineering should produce Failures with a gain towards Success.
- Because that's how real life works. You work your butt off and fail, fail, and fail. But if you are doing serious testing eventually you'll have an epiphany or hard science the crap out of what you know towards something better.
~ Failures should produce Fail Stacks such that your current Engineering "tweak" is measured against the roll-outcome compared with the maximum possible roll for that upgrade. Thus, if you have a 48% jump roll and you produce a 38% roll it counts as a Failure. This Failure gives you 1 Fail Stack of some total, say 15. Thus, when you go to the Engineer again you have a +n% increase chance of success. If you should Fail again the next stack is +2 and so forth.
3. Pilots cannot trade Micro-commodities with other Pilots neither directly nor through a special purchasing market.
~ Why? Because FDev
4. FDev turned the entire game into the quest for RNGi's Blessing. This is an exceptionally rare item supposedly in the possession of Educating ED, basement dwellers, and RNGi's Smile... an even more exceptionally rare item of which nothing more is known than this name.

It appears that FDev just ran out of ideas as to what to do with the game. Things like... Why do Limpets require Cargo Space, but not AMFU? Why doesn't the Limpets take up space in storage bound to the Limpet Module? Why is the Fuel Transfer system a limpet system? Why do these limpets die? Why cannot we recover them and use again? Why do we have ships without enough module space for all that is required in the current continent? Why do missions not give Military Grade Alloys (for example) from systems whose economy is based around Military? Why do not Trade Missions chain sending players around the Bubble? Why don't Trade missions give credits equal to Trade Rank? Why is Smuggling so utterly pointless? Why is the 'game' now RNGi?

These are questions FDev have created. Once a player has played through Mining, Trading, Exploration, and Combat once over they'll start to seek out RNGi. If they are newer players they will find RNGi early and then wonder why what they were doing in RNGi is just exactly the rest of the game. Which raises the question... "Where is the game?"

My suggestion to FDev is to start learning how to make a crafting system because what you currently have is a RNGi that has entirely replaced the game of Elite Dangerous.



P.S.
This post was inspired by Unlocking Engineers over several MONTHS and then several dedicated weeks not finding the materials necessary for ONE upgrade ROLL.

If you ever feel like making Elite Dangerous into a game please inform us gamers. Until then, stop advertising this as a game. Possibly call it a prototype for a new form of Casino Machine. Maybe the platform for some sort of social engineering program wherein space-enthusiasm is garnered at the expense of optimism.

No conclusion?

We could ask for a button in the settings saying, 'I'm short on time make he game easier for me', sorted

 

[Ayo]

I think the problem is a lack of unlocking content through progression. By having only one one-dimensional progress measurement that actually unlocks anything - Credits, and basically no gameplay that has to be unlocked, we are left with RNG to make things interesting (or not as the case may be) as you progress.

Engineers should have been just another NPC that we interacted with like any other NPC (I mean, we should be able to interact with NPC's, not just 'accept mission' 'complete mission' 'shoot' 'scan') and those interactions should affect the relationship (and things like the politics/economy of a system) which leads to (in the case of engineers) unlocking new items that we can craft. Quality should be affected by the materials we have/facilities that we have access to.

Having relationships with NPC's like we have relationships with factions/powers (though it would be nice if those relationships could be less one-dimensional) allows for a measure of progress that is more tailored to my commander. NPC relationships could be Elites equivalent to 'skills'. (Hmm, I should expand on that thought in a new thread )

 

[Atebits]

John,
No. Lazy thinking and ad hominem.

Ayo,
Yes.
The game lacks essential qualities of integration with its own structures and the utilities players have to work with.



Expanded:
Does it matter if you have a 24 Ly Jump Range or 62 Ly Jump Range?
- ad hominem: it matters because I want to "get there"
- technical: it doesn't matter because nothing currently in the GAME requires higher jump-ranges

Ad hominem argument:
"It is required that I have a 62 Ly Jump Range if I want to go to a star so far away that only that base Jump Range enables me to "get there" after a FSD Boost or use of a Neutron Star.
- This is a stupid argument.
- It is a stupid argument because nothing in the GAME currently imagines any reason for you to go there. YOU chose to push out that far into the cosmos. Nothing from the GAME indicated you had either NEED nor REASON to get there.

Technical Arguments:
"After visiting a Scientific Facility it was requested that I should attempt to reach star system KIC Blah-da-bla. The mission advised me I did not meet the requirement 62 Ly Jump Range."
- If we were up against this problem there would be something to discuss.
- Currently nothing in the GAME requires this
- Currently the game nor its developers seem to have considered making such missions
- Currently Exploration can be argued as entirely a PERSONAL CHOICE of activity that has absolutely no bearing on the game whatsoever. The only saving grace against this argument is that Universal Cartographics enables us to sell our data. However it does NOT enable us to look at the galaxy map and see what Universal Cartographics is aware has been explored. Therefore, the "conclusion", if you wish, is that we are a mouse on a wheel participating with a game mechanic that is essentially nothing more than a Currency Exchange. Player: "I have Cartographic Data." Game: "I will exchange your Cartographic Data for N Credits + N Reputation Gain." Player: "Deal". It is therefore NOT a Cartography system. It is a Currency Exchange because we cannot access its Cartographic Information.

RNGineers, Technical Arguments:
- RNG has replaced the GAME in all circumstances except combat. Want to go looking for something on a planet? RNG. And not even INTENDED RNG. The sensors we have don't even tell us where to look on a planet for anything what so ever. Just, "Oh, you know. SOMEWHERE down there will be ...Geysers. Or ...Water Magma. Ever seen either of these? I've seen Geysers. I've searched for "Water Magma". Pretty sure it is like Snipes. Ever found a Snipe? Look up "Snipe Hunting". Same thing. RNG also accounts for ALL access to micro-commodities. Found any Arsenic? How'd you do that? RNG. Found it by a Mission? How'd you do that? RNG? Going to do anything with it right now? No. Got a friend who could use it? Yes. Can you Trade it with them? No. When does this take place? RNG. (And that's not arbitrary!). Want to use an Engineer to Upgrade something? How is that done? RNG. What will happen on the next roll? RNG. How about the next one? RNG. Going to go find a USS? RNG. Found a POI? RNG. Didn't find something? RNG.

If you find an aspect of Elite Dangerous that doesn't involve RNG that is also CORE GAMEPLAY... you go ahead at let me know. If you're list is longer than this list I'll shut up.

How about Combat? Think Combat is spared this? High Intensity Combat Zone. What's there? Some ships. What types? RNG.
Mining? Going to go Mining? What'd you find from that rock? How about that other one? RNG? Ya. Probably.

So, RNGi... Elite Dangerous and RNGi... it gets a bit redundant.

And that's the point. If you pick up an SNES game... really any of them... you know what you are getting. Let's choose one at random. Secret of Mana. What can you do in Secret of Mana? Well, you have a boy who does Combat Abilities, a Girl who does Healy abilities, and a Spirit who does Support abilities. Universally all three characters can activate things, sell things, trade things, and swap weapons. What do the weapons do? Specific things unique to each weapon. Why would the weapons do specific things? Because they all have intended purposes.

Elite is somewhat "confused" right now. Most ships have enough Jump Range to do some form of Horizon's Content. This is weird. No, really. It is. Horizons is kind of like the Exploration Expansion without intended to be. It has transformed any ship into the bare minimum of earlier game ships. Example, the Adder used to be pretty good. Top Jump Range of 24 Ly. Now the Corvette is able to do that while still full Engineered. However, the Adder doesn't have the module space to have both an SRV AND AMFU. Does this matter? WE DON'T KNOW. So, if you want to go Exploring do you bring an SRV or do you bring Mining Lasers? The latter increases your Jump Range quite a bit, but the former means that if you DO... by chance... find something important (like alien ruins or god forbid, a base) you can interact with it. Without the SRV you might not even know it is there.

So... this really is a problem. We're far past just a progression issue. The Adder doesn't have enough module space TO PARTICIPATE with Horizons content as a whole. How many other ships are like this? The DBX got an update finally. However, think about that ship as a Fuel Rat. Wouldn't it be great to be able to have an SRV ANNNNNNDDDDD cargo space + the Fuel Transfer Limpet? Isn't that sort of... I don't know... part of the point of playing a multiplayer game? Getting out of your ship and doing things in... multiplayer. So... an SRV is somewhat important. Just as a general principle of a gaming mechanic. But... we can't do this. Just isn't there to be done. You can bring the Fuel Transfer Limpet or you can bring the SRV. One makes you Fuel Rat Capable. The other doesn't.

And these little things lead into other questions. Why did the Dolphin come with only one chair in the middle of an expansion giving Multicrew? "Variety" is a personal answer. It doesn't answer the irrationality of its inclusion as such. Multiplayer game... single seat... multiplayer game... single seat. Go on. Answer it. Find a rational reason.

So, the game has some issues right on the face of it right there. And FDev seems to half-way recognized some of this. "Hmm, DBX needs a module update. We'll add a tiny one to help this be less awful." Good plan, at least it shows they recognized that 1.0 and 2.0 of the game are NOT the same. It still doesn't really touch on the facts. The game content got ahead of the player ships and utilities.

How about that SRV? Try it out yet in Multicrew? Notice yet it doesn't deploy? Even for the co-pilot? That's odd... isn't this... I don't know... now a multi-crew game? I mean, sure it makes sense that a pilot can't get out in the SRV with the co-pilot flying. People ARE jerks and inevitably it will happen someone comes along to deliberately crash either the ship or the SRV. One could argue that is just a risk of playing. Personally I suspect is it that the game doesn't support this flip-flopping of who has control of what very well. Best not to try to do too much all in one patch, but it does lead to noticing other things.
Here's one. A person joins an exploration ship. They can change the pips. That's it... Thus why people have begun to think the only thing of Core Gameplay Mechanics FDev are working on goes to Combat. I don't believe it, but trust me that people are getting touchy about it.

Then there is RNGi and Time as it relates to Combat. Do you really think that I'm that grumpy about spending two weeks unlocking an Engineer? I'm not. What upsets me is that I am aware how much it gets talked about in relationship to all of the rest of the above. The general feeling in the community is clearly that RNGi is the excuse for a bunch of shady choices by FDev to not have the decency or possibly the competence to implement a real crafting system. You know... the kind where what you do with your time results in something like a positive gain?
I mean... let's work this out. Try to think it through. I know it is hard. It is very hard to look at something you love and say, "You are broken." I like this game a lot, but it is broken. What broke it? Well... probably what broke it was players coming to the conclusion that the time they put into the game isn't respected. That seems to be one very evident and often stated issue. If you spent 12 hours trying to get one component for an upgrade and another person spends 1 hour does that mean anything? Try to look at it objectively.
The answer is self evident.

Yes. It very much matters.

If you spent 2 weeks just to get access to something whereas I spend a few hours of my Saturday afternoon you're going to be ever so slightly irate. Repeat this. Now carry on with this as a valid crafting system for a few months. Ire has turned into loathing. Loathing turns into expectations of an apology. The apology does not come. This turns into contempt. Still no apology. Now things are turning towards a sense of general malice and conspiracy to drive players away. It is at this point people begin to take the flaws in the game as intentional. "They" it is suspected (the developers) "know" ..."what players will stay". And other comments like, "They" ..."are farming us" ..."for cash". Or some such like.

And this is why I am saying RNGi is a terminal scenario. It isn't iRNG where you (i) are RNG. No, it is RNGi. RNG is being done TO you. And that es people off. Thus, read through the process above and you have the general conclusion of a player playing Elite past the point the Core Game Mechanics have been experienced once over. Comically and tragically since RNGi involves ALL aspects of the game RNGi is a self-destructive process. The player who joins Elite is goaded into it and then once they've done RNGi once through they've done all there is to Elite Dangerous once through. If you think is good for the game's health think again.

So, you can take this as a formulaic outcome. Elite Dangerous' lifespan can be measured against the player ( population + types of content (mining, trading, exploring, combat) ) + time required for each ship acquisition ))) / ( time required to RNGi its RNGineering ). That's essentially all the game amounts to right now.

Unless they get hooked into something like Wings or Exploration Expeditions (player made content) the actual GAME CONTENT is going to run out for most players in less than a month of playing. Less than a month...

RNGi is a time-gate to probably give the Devs time to actually do some Development without us hanging off them like leaches going, "What's next, what, what?!?!"

But personally I see it that the game is in a sorry state. And the reason for this Ayo is onto. What we have to work with doesn't really connect with what's in the game. And what's in the game doesn't connect with what we have to work with.

If I scan a planet the planet I don't know any more of what's down there than if I didn't scan the planet. I rarely bother to even scan systems anymore exploring. The sensor data is utterly useless in about 98% of all circumstances. It is great to have SOME idea, but it really is up to RNGi until I get down there. I forgive this. It makes sense to use RNGi here. However, it doesn't make sense to do it for EVERYTHING. I should be able to sell my unused micro-commodities at a market and be able to buy others from players. It should be possible that when I am flying over a POI the POI decreases in the approximate area to search without disappearing entirely because FDev. Why should my sensor suddenly stop giving me information so I lose track of where to put down? Where in real life do our sensors do this? How it is possibly useful? Why can't I rip the SRV's sensor out of the SRV and add it to my ships flight hud? I rarely use the SRV any more because there is absolutely nothing it does that I can't do with my brain. And when I do use the stupid thing it is tends to be on ice worlds where its smooth rubber tires mean it has no purchase in the ground whatsoever. I spent two hours trying to get up one little hill whereas in real life I'd have already put some version of space-chains on those tires or studded them. it's not like the aliens are going to show up and say, "You can't have studded tires on our moon!"

So ya, the game is fantastic where it comes to the skybox and social atmosphere. Wings are great. Discord is great. Player communities are great. But the game has no contact between what it is demanding of us with what is provided to us.

Ayo is probably right about this "progression" issue as well. I can personally find no use for large ships other than the module space. You're never going to think to use one in PvP if you're sane because there is no way to know who or what you're up against. Will you be fighting a Corvette or some super Corvette? To rib John a little... if I DID have infinite hours to devote to RNGi then I'd probably have the super Corvette. But so what? What's the point? Does some player great meaningfully control a system? What about some other system? How do I tell? What does it matter? What's it all for? Don't know. Can't find a way to care even when I try. And so on.

Inara was done tonight. That was educational, too. I'd been playing with RNGi-the-USS for awhile. Long enough I forgot the actual commodity I was looking for. I tried to recall. Couldn't. Tried to recall the Engineer I wanted to upgrade with. Couldn't. Finally looked them up on Inara. It was done. Couldn't find another site with RNGineer information. Lost interest and decided to get out of the Bubble before I really started to think too much about the game or lack there of... With sites like Inara down the stuff above gets exceedingly frustrating. Why, again, is it that the Missions from an Economy that should conceivably carry xyz Commodity don't? I don't know how many times I refreshed missions this week. I found some systems were quite rational. High Tech = Focus Crystals. High Tech + Agriculture seemed to be good for Cracked Industrial Firmware Rewards. Military though... nothing meaningful coming from Military Economy Missions. No Military Grade Alloys. It was an interesting excuse to wander around Elite and get a sense of how the background simulator is working, but honestly... some games come with maps. "Look for this? Here's a tree of associating things". And this is a possible future, as I see it. Elite's RNGi-as-Content is driving people off. They can't sense that the game is heading into anything.

I've been telling people for awhile, "Don't expect to find the aliens until we can get into gas giants." People don't seem to understand that. This means to me that they aren't listening to what FDev is saying anymore. They have lost their sense of anticipation for improvement to the core game mechanics. They have, however, gained a sense of contempt regarding what to expect. Again, I think this comes down to people feeling that they've been slighted. You can put a lot of time into Elite right now and get absolutely nothing out of it. Not even a hint of a clue as to where to get something like a micro-commodity to a good roll from the RNGi after that. And it is all RNGi.
And just to put this into perspective... Tonight a friend says to me, "I just unlocked access to blah-blah. I'm going to buy an Orca and go Exploring. The implication being... 'do you want to come?". I cheered them on enthusiastically, but I didn't reply with a yes or no. Not even a hint of one. And I couldn't. I wasn't anywhere near done with the ship I was working on to become an Explorer. It wasn't ready and I had spent all week looking for a few things from RNGi. My friend realized what this meant. I wouldn't be joining them and that sort of lead to a downer atmosphere. Sure I could hop in the co-pilot seat whenever, but that's not the same as being out there with them in my own ship as well.

So again, no matter how much time you give to RNGi there is no promise it means anything... other than you wasted a lot of time.

So... how long does a game last when players realize that the time they put into a game is meaningless to their progression?

What does it say about the content creator's respect for their players if player progression is entirely chance?

How long do player communities last if your option to play together is determined or walled off by chance?

Go down this road of thoughts for awhile.

Take the length of that 'while' against the length of time it takes to RNGi up just one ship.

How's the game doing? Still so confident for its future?

For myself, I'm honestly treating this as a kind of intellectual challenge. What does the game need? If we had something besides RNGi to encounter what would that be?

I think something like "nested sets of content" plus a rework on existing modules. Change the ADS, DSS, and etc into one module or make them a utility module. Add an interpretive suite which, once activities, passively and continuously scans a target. If the player chooses they can interact with the "information feed" to try to isolate practical data from the noise in the target. Or you could just leave the thing on while traveling in a system to try to gain meaningful data out of the whole system. This leads to thoughts like, "Omniscan vs. Directed Scan". Probably this could take place on the hud changing the holo display from planets to a static field you then play around with. The point is that the players are actually PLAYING a GAME. Not just flying around aimlessly while also not making THAT the only thing about exploration. It would be a way to isolate meaningful data from the noise of the skybox as it currently is.

More nested sets of content might be less intellectually driven. Moons with exotic craters and deep valleys heavily fortified for combat enthusiasts. Deep space stations with complex piping and internal areas for the same reasons. And meaningful things to blow up or conquer and hold. Again, stuff to GAME.

Most especially, a way to CRAFT micro-commodities. Seriously. Games without gaming... what is the point?

And as we're eventually going to have space legs we should start to see OUR Commander learning SKILLS like Engineering, not being some dumb-numb moron perpetually dependent on RNGi to get through life.
"A fish is animal that swims in a brook. Can't right his name or read a book..." That's our commanders right now.

RNGi has served its purpose, but its time-gate ran out of time. The GAME needs development again. Not just new content. Content is like assets. You can add all the assets into the game you want. Including more RNGi. It won't improve the GAME. The GAME is Mining and new ways to do that. The game is Smuggling... and having a reason and reward to do that. The game is Exploration and having something out there to find. The game is our equipment from modules to utilities... and having content that can interact with them. The game is Combat which isn't so RNGi'd it convinces pilots they'll never have enough time in their lives to RNGi enough to combat the other RNGi'd ships. Etc, etc.