Rethink Jitter as a Balancing Agent Via Size Variation

Would you like to see this in Elite if it was balanced properly?

  • Yes this would be great.

    Votes: 8 25.0%
  • No this would break combat.

    Votes: 23 71.9%
  • No comment...

    Votes: 1 3.1%

  • Total voters
    32
Coming from PC playing EVE for years then Moving to Elite on console i had always wished for Elite to take after some features in EVE. Such as larger ships and wings, in game corporations and alliances and player trading. But that is not what i am here to talk about. My subject is the rethinking if Jitter and its practical use.

Jitter as it sits is used to balance out some modified weapons. This should still stay however, i propose using jitter as a default stat on weapon class vs target size.

For Example...

C1 Sits at 0 Jitter
C2 Sits at 0.5 Jitter
C3 Sits at 1.5 Jitter
C4 Sits at 2.0 Jitter

These values would have to be tested and modified. The point of this is to bridge the gap between small and large ships.

Right now i can lock on to a fighter and blast it away with my 2 Huge Hardpoints. This pretty much means any ship smaller than a Python is going to have a very bad day.

Implement Jitter to weapon classes and you would get this.

"Your Corvette is interdicted by a wing of Eagles. As you try to defend yourself you find that your Huge and Large hardpoints even while being Gimballed are missing 80% of the time. Your only hope is to utilize your two small and mediums. After awhile you find that its just to much to handle as not only are you gimped on full damage potential but they heavily outmaneuver you. You will remember to bring fighters next time."

Example 2...

"You have been interdicted by a Vulture and Anaconda. You deploy your fighter and set it after the Vulture. The Vulture tries to fight back but cannot hit your fighter with its Large Hardpoints due to Jitter. The Anaconda deploys his fighter and sets it after yours. Both Ships then begin to primary you. You focus on the Vulture as he can be hit effectivly with all but your Huge HPs however, your C4s do manage to graze him every now and again. Once he is dead you focus on the Anaconda with full damage potential."

Doing this would make end game PvP more interesting. Show up to a fight with a full wing of Corvettes and Cutters and find that your enemy deploys much smaller ships to match you. You are now gimped on full damage and need to rely on your fighters and smaller hardpoints for damage. This type of Jitter would make no difference to class vs class battles however, go against mismatched classes and the fight changes. This type of Jitter would only make sense with turrets and gimballed. Fixed weapons could have a much smaller value and of course take more skill. An even better way to implement it is to have these jitter values only come into effect when your target hull mass goes under your Effective Tracking System ETS for short.

Overall this would make end game PvP and PvE more interesting. Promoting different builds tactics and teamwork. And i am sure many of the Cobra fanbase would fap to the idea of winning fights against full wings of skilled big ship pilots.

Some may argue that this is a buff to noobs and their tiny noob ships. As well as a huge nerf to large ships. This could or could not be the case here as these large ships still have huge tank and counters such as smaller hardpoints and fighters.

What do you guys think. I hope i got my point across clearly as i am on my phone.
 
I haven't played EVE

I like Elite

I don't want an EVE / Elite / SC / NMS hybrid tyvm

I like Elite

Also, with enough practice your SLF can take on pretty much any large ship, it might take 14 hours to reduce the shields, but your maneuverability is so high they can barely touch you
 
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Inb4 people accusing you of being a large ship racist.

I fly only Large ships. Corvette and Anaconda. The added Jitter would only make small ships die less to big guys.

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I haven't played EVE

I like Elite

I don't want an EVE / Elite / SC / NMS hybrid tyvm

I like Elite

Also, with enough practice your SLF can take on pretty much any large ship, it might take 14 hours to reduce the shields, but your maneuverability is so high they can barely touch you

So you are telling me you wouldn't like to see larger ships. In game factions that you can create and p2p trading?

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How about no?

Larger weapons are slower at targeting already (Turrets at least)

Overcharge rank5 needs Jitter, tho.

I haven't noticed it.
 
Interesting, but I would only apply it to Gimbal and tracking weapons.

Fixed is already disadvantaged on larger ships due to the slower pitch and yaw, making it harder to stay on target, which is counteracted by the gimbal 'cone' in front, meaning the fixed weapons lose a lot more power compared to gimbals on larger ships.
 
You're Jitter values are about 2x too large. 4 jitter would mean you'd miss the broad side of a python at 1km. Make it max out at 2 and this could work.

I fly only Large ships. Corvette and Anaconda. The added Jitter would only make small ships die less to big guys.

Not really. There are plenty of ways to deal with small ships. Missiles, turrets, mines, SLF, reverse, etc. Small ships would be doomed in any scenario if they tried to assault any large ship.
 
The bad Point about gimbal jitter is that it is unbelievable. An automatic aiming weapon might have a slight jitter but seeing how random it shoots and moves is very much how the futue weapons will not be at all because thats how they are not today.

Anyway gimballs jitter enough already. Despite many NPC uses Caff and since 2.2 caff is enhanced again after nerfed.
Second the big NPC ship with gimball miss me all the time while I am piloting the fighter. It's already bad enough.
 
Their size would make them jitter less. They already track slow which is why you go with fixed mount and use your ship as the turret. You usually do this anyway even with gimbled mounts. Big weapons just hit hard and if your ship is built around one, like the FDL, it's weight distribution will be optimized to swing it around in combat and it's mountings will be two meters thick. Vultures are supposed to be as good at hunting small ships because the ship is built around the large hardpoints. It's optimized for fixed mounts and can outturn everything but the eagle and fighters. If a vulture tried to mount one huge gun instead of two large the ship would be terrible to maneuver and would have a lot of trouble in a fight. If the FDL tried to have two huge it would be too slow to turn and it's balance would be way off. You'd have to design a different ship, building it around the guns.
So I disagree that jitter is the right way to balance it. The ships that are armed so are supposed to be badass. Want to kill an Eagle? Get a viper. Want to kill a Viper? Get a Vulture. Want to kill a Vulture? Get an FDL. Want to kill an FDL? Get a Vette. It's supposed to be that way. Remove a step by putting a Vulture against a Vette or an FDL against an eagle etc. and it's a ROFLstomp.
Two or three eagles that know what they're doing can take an FDL with tactics. One tiny ship is a gnat, two or three can be a swarm. 6 eagles beating on a vette with rails and baiting it with target fixation will kill it. 5 eagles can do the same in a bit more time. Four might not get through the shields before one or two get killed.
They aren't planetary bombardment cannons for killing continents. If the big blue lasers on a majestic can target a sidewinder than I think a huge laser in the hands of a skilled commander should be steady and hurty.
 
EVE's got decent ship size balance but that's mostly in relation to turret tracking speeds and what size target they can effectively damage. Missiles get around this somewhat by ignoring turret tracking speed with missile maneuverability. There's also the factor of transversal velocity in relation to the turret tracking, which is what really makes small ships nigh invulnerable to big ships. It enforces diversified fleets, or you end up like some in Null Sec who've lost major battles because they couldn't counter smaller ships that are also EWaring their tracking.


ED already has some of the basic framework in place. Small class weapons do less damage against large ships. The problem is, large and huge hardpoints suffer absolutely no penalties against small ships. The vocal big ship club will ensure that never changes, but in the end might bite them in the butt if/when they add in player controllable capital ships. If another Rares/Luxuries/Robigo/Sothis doesn't crop up, only the people who know how to actually make money will be flying the capital ships that'll be munching through Vettes and Cutters like they were Condors.

At some point ED will have to address this issue, but I don't think it's a major priority for them at the moment.


If PvP actually supported 32v32 wing PvP, you could have dedicated shield busting specialist ships with the dumbfire bomber crew to rip large ships to pieces which could greatly diversify PvP. Unfortunately ED's PvP and Wing element is fairly basic and has some pretty strict limits on what you can do with it. As much as I'd like to see that change, I don't think it will. For me, that's been the biggest disappointment of ED from my perspective. I love 32v32 and higher space battles where all elements come into play.
 
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Player controlled capital ships are one of the last things on the list, if they even make the cut. Also, capital ships are pretty squishy for their size. No shields and if you can only launch 1 fighter they'll be easily killed by a couple of engineered vettes.
 
As i only planned on discussing just the reform of jitter, yes high jitter is bad as is. Basically an EVE style tracking system. Huge guns vs small ship have a higher chance of missing. It would give small ships a survivability buff without changing small vs small combat.

As for the vulture i believe that the lore behind it was actually a large ship hunter. Being slow but maneuverable and hit hard enough to break their tank.

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So a slight added tracking or jitter effect. Idk maybe jitter was the wrong word. Like maybe a huge hp has a 40% chance to hit say a fighter, while it would have a 90% chance of hitting a Python and only go up as the hull mass gos up on said target.
 
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Maybe ill revisit the idea later. After reading through my own posts it sounds kind of wonky. Like "So my huge weapons has to much jitter i cant even kill a vulture at point blank."

I hope some of you got the general idea ay least. I know frontier plans to add larger ships. Maybe not carrier size but the larger and more guns they have yhe more our little guys will fall behind.
 
Balancing weapons by not letting them hit is the worst and laziest mechanic ever invented. If balancing should happen, please adjust fire rate , damage output or distributor drain. Not some value that makes you miss random shots, it's really unsatisfying. Also the least realistic.
 
Coming from PC playing EVE for years then Moving to Elite on console i had always wished for Elite to take after some features in EVE. Such as larger ships and wings, in game corporations and alliances and player trading. But that is not what i am here to talk about. My subject is the rethinking if Jitter and its practical use.

Jitter as it sits is used to balance out some modified weapons. This should still stay however, i propose using jitter as a default stat on weapon class vs target size.

For Example...

C1 Sits at 0 Jitter
C2 Sits at 0.5 Jitter
C3 Sits at 1.5 Jitter
C4 Sits at 2.0 Jitter

These values would have to be tested and modified. The point of this is to bridge the gap between small and large ships.

Right now i can lock on to a fighter and blast it away with my 2 Huge Hardpoints. This pretty much means any ship smaller than a Python is going to have a very bad day.

Implement Jitter to weapon classes and you would get this.

"Your Corvette is interdicted by a wing of Eagles. As you try to defend yourself you find that your Huge and Large hardpoints even while being Gimballed are missing 80% of the time. Your only hope is to utilize your two small and mediums. After awhile you find that its just to much to handle as not only are you gimped on full damage potential but they heavily outmaneuver you. You will remember to bring fighters next time."

Example 2...

"You have been interdicted by a Vulture and Anaconda. You deploy your fighter and set it after the Vulture. The Vulture tries to fight back but cannot hit your fighter with its Large Hardpoints due to Jitter. The Anaconda deploys his fighter and sets it after yours. Both Ships then begin to primary you. You focus on the Vulture as he can be hit effectivly with all but your Huge HPs however, your C4s do manage to graze him every now and again. Once he is dead you focus on the Anaconda with full damage potential."

Doing this would make end game PvP more interesting. Show up to a fight with a full wing of Corvettes and Cutters and find that your enemy deploys much smaller ships to match you. You are now gimped on full damage and need to rely on your fighters and smaller hardpoints for damage. This type of Jitter would make no difference to class vs class battles however, go against mismatched classes and the fight changes. This type of Jitter would only make sense with turrets and gimballed. Fixed weapons could have a much smaller value and of course take more skill. An even better way to implement it is to have these jitter values only come into effect when your target hull mass goes under your Effective Tracking System ETS for short.

Overall this would make end game PvP and PvE more interesting. Promoting different builds tactics and teamwork. And i am sure many of the Cobra fanbase would fap to the idea of winning fights against full wings of skilled big ship pilots.

Some may argue that this is a buff to noobs and their tiny noob ships. As well as a huge nerf to large ships. This could or could not be the case here as these large ships still have huge tank and counters such as smaller hardpoints and fighters.

What do you guys think. I hope i got my point across clearly as i am on my phone.

1. Cobras arent supposed to win against Anacondas.
2. You idea only works if gimballed and turreted weapons do the same amount of damage as fixed. Adding jitter is unnecessary since turrets and gimballs already do reduced damage.
 
1. Cobras arent supposed to win against Anacondas.

And yet in the previous Elite games my Cobra did fine against Anacondas. It would be nice if the Cobra stood a chance to win through skill and good module selection, rather than all this "the Cobra can't win because of "it costs loads less, and has a lower MMORPG 'level'" malarkey. ;)
 
Whatever your thoughts on this particular implementation I read it not as much 'smaller ships winning against big' (heh, winning) but larger ships Not one shooting smaller ones.

So yeah there are missiles and stuff, but smaller ships got defence against those.

But balancing anything is a fulltime job and not 'trial and error' guessing...
 
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