Astronomy / Space Rock carving from 4600BCE earliest supernova observation?

Para Handy

Para Handy
An interesting article on the Guardian website which reports on speculation of a depiction from 4,600 BCE seeming to show a supernova:


https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...va-drawn-6000-years-ago-say-indian-scientists


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I don't have a link to the original 2013 article about it, only the Guardian report.

[alien]
 

Winterwalker

Winterwalker
The way the drawing has been put over the constellations is wild.

I've personally always associated Orion with Greek legend, later than this of course, because that's where the name comes from. A quick google though, seems the earliest recognised depiction of Orion comes far, far earlier, 32,000 to 38,000 years ago! On a mammoth ivory found West Germany, 1979. No doubt Orion was very common knowledge as part of basic navigation by the Neolithic. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orion_(constellation)

And by the Neolithic (5th Millenium, 4600BCE where this drawing comes from) the plough is being introduced in Europe, the wheel is developed in Mesopotamia and India, Water buffalo domesticated in China and even beer brewing is developed so I wondered if the drawing looks just a tiny bit crude for that time?

With the spear elongated to stab the (no way that's a bull - surely a large deer??) it made me think child or younger person's drawing maybe, so could it be the sun and moon? But in Kashmir probably looking at quite an isolated culture, with very little need for art? The theory I reckon makes a ton of sense.


In any case it doesn't look like an invitation at all I hope does it??

Nooooooooooo

prometheus1-500x333.jpg
 
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Arry

Arry
It says: Mad dogs and Englishmen, go out in the mid-day sun.

Why Englishmen? I hear you ask. They invented the Longbow and have always had; 'willy' issues.
 

Para Handy

Para Handy
Winterwalker said:
The way the drawing has been put over the constellations is wild.

..................
Click to expand...

I don't know who did the graphic with the constellations, I lifted it (and the other) from the Guardian article.

The article quotes the source as determining that "..the supernova would have occurred somewhere near the Orion constellation" - I assume they meant "appeared" but since they preceded this by saying "Viewed from Kashmir..." we can determine that whoever wrote that sentence was an idiot.

They then mention the proximity to Taurus - in fact it is closer to Taurus than Orion - so you can see why I would have preferred to have the original source to draw (sorry) upon. :rolleyes:

I just couldn't be bothered to spend time searching.
 
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Zenith

Zenith
Para Handy said:
OK I got irritated so:

Here is the original paper (pdf):

http://www.tifr.res.in/~archaeo/papers/Prehistoric astronomy/Oldest Supernova record in Kashmir.pdf

(Turns out the images I used were from that paper.)

and an Indian Express article (in English):

http://indianexpress.com/article/te...000-year-old-rock-carving-in-kashmir-5017870/


... there are others.
Click to expand...

From the summary of that article...
Only one Supernova remnant HB9 satisfies this condition. In addition to being dated to 4,600 BC, its apparent magnitude at peak must have been close to that of the Moon. We then plot this object in the sky along with the rest of the scene and show that the whole hunting scene along with the Moon and the Supernova fits quite well into the pattern of stars in the sky. Thus we suggest that this is probably the oldest record of supernova and sky chart found in the Indian Subcontinent.
Click to expand...

That is good going. It might be arbitrary to find a supernova remnant that happens to fit the age and the location, but I'm convinced enough to believe it is at least possible.
 
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