Powerplay Rogue Power

The delay of the Power Play tick has destroyed Winters. You have handed over to ALD a system we were fighting for and you have given the Alliance time to react to our snipe. Since our active player base is small compared to the Alliance and ALD, we had no active Players after the supposed cycle tick and the effort to maintain a balance is down the drain.

We will sacrifice Winters, in order to save our community. Say bye bye to meaningful Power Play!
 
we have spent large amounts of credits to block the prep of ALD in Chiung Fei. We have spent amounts of time undermining with a difficult AI to snipe turmoil Mahon and we planned to turmoil and entered turmoil with a system not undermined. Countless hours of co-ordination. I wonder, if our adversaries are willing to accept such a cheat win. Our concerns are dismissed and not even addressed. When everything goes to sh..t like this, there must be a response. We feel betrayed by the sudden change of rules without announcement. The damage we took from the sudden change of rules is too great for us to manage.
 
I'll clarify a bit. The frustration level at the FLC is extremely high right now. We are tight-knit group; we have more loyalty to each other than we do to FDev-created NPC Felicia Winters, to Elite: Dangerous, or even to our very good friends at Hudson. The FLC is a small group; two months ago we began inviting Hudson players to our Enjin site to promote better coordination and they already outnumber us there. Since Christmas 2015 we have poured billions of credits into the preparation and expansion of HIP 44811, Amuzgo, DR Crucis (wasn't that a fun week?), LTT 5964, and Hyades Sector IC-K B9-4 (they should let us rename it for all the work we've done in that bubble). In the case of Hyades and LTT, we coordinated massive snipe and blanket undermining operations to remove them from their previous owners. I do not mean to exclude the work of our allies at Hudson; without them none of this would have been possible, but I am only speaking of the FLC here. The frustration level at Hudson doesn't seem to be as high.

What we perceive in Frontier's response to this cycle's bugs is a complete disregard for the time and effort we have poured into their game. They wanted massive galactic struggle, and they got it. I think all ten powers have gone above and beyond anything that Frontier thought was possible, from an organization standpoint. This has been an amazing war and I am grateful to everyone involved, even our most bitter enemies. At times we have been compared to (edit: the leaders of Germany during World War II) and wife-beaters, and while I don't appreciate those comparisons, I do appreciate our opponent's passion for this game. Below I will list the most immediate issues we have:

1) HIP 47328 should be an expansion for Winters this cycle. This is another bubble that we and Hudson worked hard to take from ALD over the course of several cycles. After that we put in 28k prep merits in the last 24 hours of the cycle to come over the top of ALD's 12k.
2) Winters cannot continue the prep war this cycle. Continuing preps would not be the end of the world (though a full cycle prep war like the one we will probably see at Ch'iang Fei would be very expensive), but we are in turmoil. Why are we in turmoil? We had to avoid taking the 5c expansion of Barathaona (again). Collusion piracy to the rescue once again; I think we coordinated to do four or five systems with Hudson commanders.
3) The wrong system is in turmoil. Mehudi was not one of our collusion targets. Indeed, the turmoil screen in-game shows that we only paid the default upkeep on it last cycle. Yet somehow, it's in turmoil instead of one of the systems we targeted.

Most importantly:
4) Frontier doesn't think the problems are bad enough to merit a real fix. I have listed only Winters problems here because they are the ones I am familiar with. It appears that Patreus also attempted a controlled turmoil and ended up with no system, or possibly their headquarters, in turmoil. Hudson and ALD will fight a week-long prep war over a system that should be in expansion this cycle. No power has expansions this week at all. There are probably more issues which I'm failing to remember right now. These are just the issues from this week. Power Play's short history is riddled with bugs; sometimes we are lucky enough to get a fix, sometimes we get nothing more than a shrug of the shoulders.

At the FLC there is a general feeling that investing more time into Power Play is a waste. However, as I mentioned in the opening, we are a very close group and very loyal to each other. We are currently discussing whether to continue with Power Play as it is, or to pursue other goals within ED, or to move on to another game altogether. I certainly applaud Frontier for creating a game compelling enough to bring us together, but as a group we may have reached the breaking point.

While I've been writing this, Slurmz has posted a more succinct message to our subreddit. If you are a Winters pledge who is not part of the FLC, I strongly recommend making your voice heard either here or there in the next few days. As he mentions, the FLC represents over 90% of Winters' effective merits, so the decision we make will likely affect the continuation of Winters as a power in Elite: Dangerous.
 
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[snip]
While I've been writing this, Slurmz has posted a more succinct message to our subreddit. If you are a Winters pledge who is not part of the FLC, I strongly recommend making your voice heard either here or there in the next few days. As he mentions, the FLC represents over 90% of Winters' effective merits, so the decision we make will likely affect the continuation of Winters as a power in Elite: Dangerous.


Thank you for expressing so well some of my own frustration (the other best contribution to that was CMDR Misaniovent of Patreus in this reddit post).

It is perhaps not surprising that a Winters and a Patreus CMDR make up that list. Those are the two powers that seem to have suffered most from this latest bug (and Delaine has suffered in a different way of course). But all powers have suffered in the past from Frontier's attitude you mention in point 4) above, when other bugs, many of them still out there, have surfaced. This Cycle 52 disaster (the Birthday Bug?) is just the worst as far as Powerplay is concerned. And despite my power (ALD) being relatively unscathed, I'm still left running between numb and mad. After all, what's the point of working hard when bugs decide major battles in PP? Where is the sweetness in a victory over an enemy when they have been screwed over so royally that many of them no longer have the will to fight back?

I'll be following your group's decision with interest. I may even follow your example, whatever it is.
 
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The Winters community isn't the only one considering ceasing organized activity. There may be additional announcements from other powers in days to come...
 
Instead of leaving what we all love doing, why not do the opposite? Why not just do nothing? We all get out of the trenches and have a game of football until its sorted properly and show that we are a community that needs to be listened to.
 
Well, leaving Power Play means that little will happen within Powwr Play. I think a lot of folks may end up getting back to basics and just enjoy the game alone, and others will probably move on to support this or that PMF.
 
If your frustration level is higher than at Hudson then I am shocked you haven't already left power play en masse. I've withdrawn (although not unpledged yet) from Power Play and many other dedicated Hudson cmdrs have done the same. I wish you all the best guys and I hope to see Power Play become a mode we all want to play again.
 
The delay of the Power Play tick has destroyed Winters. You have handed over to ALD a system we were fighting for and you have given the Alliance time to react to our snipe.

Just to clarify, the snipe you handed in would not have put us into turmoil if the tick happened at 7 AM.

Speaking to basskicker on the Mahon discord earlier I learned you were trying to snipe Ao Kond as well, but failed by about 900 merits. Even if Ao Kond had been sniped, Mahon would still have had four successful expansions, but we would have ended with 24 CC this cycle.

The fortifications that happened after 6:32 AM (the last set of data the Alliance Office of Statistics) saved Mahon 292 CC, and we started this cycle with 479 CC.

Unless someone sniped systems other than Kokoimudji, Leesti and Partha (and Kokoimudji and Partha are already included in the cycle tick) AND it's realistic that Mahon fortified that system after the tick rather than in the 28 minutes between 6:32 AM and 7 AM , Mahon would have won all four expansions with a 7 AM tick.
 
we planned to turmoil and entered turmoil with a system not undermined

I hadn't even noticed that bug. What the actual fog?

Just to clarify what ever and I are talking about here are the turmoil and control page showing Mehudi (Winters' turmoil system)

tOJ5JYh.png


AvV6v6x.png


Notice the value for "upkeep from last cycle"

Now look at one of Mahon's turmoil systems from our turmoil week (cycle 45)

vUoTUxX.png


2hxTrvI.png


Mehudi should NOT be in turmoil.

Going by the released data, it should be 16 c Ursae Majoris. It was undermined, and it has a 100 CC upkeep (highest for last cycle according to the official data.

Just how much stuff is wrong in this cycle???
 
I can't speak for others in Mahon, but personally "winning" through bugs isn't fun. It's a hollow victory at best.

I (personally) was hoping to squash Winters enough to force her into the bottom three and keeping her there through constant turmoil by eating more and more of her space until FDev would basically have to step in and declare her collapsed. This? Well, I think Switch from The Matrix said it best.

[video=youtube_share;QGc-iPc-9dE]https://youtu.be/QGc-iPc-9dE?t=7[/video]

Honestly, if Winters collapses because FLC withdraws from PowerPlay, I honestly don't want the CC Mahon would pick up from the systems that contests Winters' space, because that's basically blood money at that point. It's CC won, not through honest competition, but by FDev saying "Hey Mahon - have a bunch of extra income."
 
So that's why you decided to keep fortifying after the cycle tick should have ended because it's better to be safe then sorry? This is what you said in another post...

I'll skip explaining the fact that with a 7 AM UTC tick, Mahon would be at 227 CC with four expansions rather than 479 CC with four expansions.

Given how FDev has responded to these bugs before, the tick would be extended somewhere between 15 minutes and 168 hours. At what point will people who were undermining go "we are 900 merits short in Ao Kond - let's go grab it before it's too late? 900 merits is 30 kills. Across a wing of 4 that's 8 kills plus travel time in a system with decent spawn rates. You tell me - how long should the cycle have been before it would be okay for us to be better safe than sorry without being accused of cheating?

Also - even though we did this, I've said since before the cycle results were even available, that NOTHING that happened after 7 AM UTC should count. Hope for the best (7 AM data used for tick), prepare for the worst (a tick extension just long enough to allow people to push us into turmoil if we don't defend ourselves).
 
Good thing you'll skip explaining that cause it's not the issue. Fdev usually has about a 15 minute buffer window. The issue isn't you cheating, it's you taking advantage of it full heartidly then claiming you want to play fair and come off as a good guy. Truth is you'll take every advantage you'd take. Winters for example fights fair and plays the way it's meant to and STILL kicks ass from one end of the bubble to the other. I am simply calling you out on your double speak. I was there in team speak and we didn't rally around the extension.
 
Good thing you'll skip explaining that cause it's not the issue. Fdev usually has about a 15 minute buffer window. The issue isn't you cheating, it's you taking advantage of it full heartidly then claiming you want to play fair and come off as a good guy. Truth is you'll take every advantage you'd take. Winters for example fights fair and plays the way it's meant to and STILL kicks ass from one end of the bubble to the other. I am simply calling you out on your double speak. I was there in team speak and we didn't rally around the extension.

Come on, now you are unfair!

It's common practice in business to guard against the worst case scenario. In this case, that worst case is as Vectron described: additional undermining but no additional fortification. Of course Mahon continued to fortify, I would have been irresponsible not to!

But as usual, no explanation can satisfy the Winters commanders.
 
Good thing you'll skip explaining that cause it's not the issue. Fdev usually has about a 15 minute buffer window. The issue isn't you cheating, it's you taking advantage of it full heartidly then claiming you want to play fair and come off as a good guy. Truth is you'll take every advantage you'd take. Winters for example fights fair and plays the way it's meant to and STILL kicks ass from one end of the bubble to the other. I am simply calling you out on your double speak. I was there in team speak and we didn't rally around the extension.

It's not double speak, it's more like hypocrisy or lying, but I understand your point. I have my own personal views, but as an organizer I also have to do what's best for Mahon, even if that's something that's not exactly to my taste. There's a reason I am constantly complaning about PowerPlay bugs, even when they aren't affecting Mahon and never CAN affect Mahon, like combat expansion zones not spawning in planetless systems.

But either way it's not practising what I preach, but I'm going to continue preaching fair treatment and clear and transparent rules for every participant, because if that isn't in place, people aren't going to want to invest their time and effort in the part of Elite: Dangerous that I care the most about.
 
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