Scientific reasons why shock cannons should have increased total ammo

cmdr Ramius007

C
Testing both gimbals and fixed of those recently in PvE and PvP and compering with other weapons in same class i would like to share ideas.
Class 1 gimballed shock cannon have theoretical DPS of 69 (14.7 max theoretical sustained), shoot speed of 1200, armour penetration of 25 and reload time of 6 seconds. To place the weapon we need to compere it to other similar weapons like multi-cannons, cannons and frags with most popular mod for them, that is g5 overcharged. While other modifications certainly have their place overcharged gives most advantages in most situations.
First total damage of all mentioned weapons in class 1 gimbals are following: 1766 for shock cannons, 3047 for multi-cannons, 2865 for cannons, 3733 for frags. As you see other weapons have SIGNIFICANTLY higher total damage. There is a reason for this is higher theoretical DPS that compered to mentioned weapons look like: MC -11.6(7.6), cannons -14.2(11.6), frags -121(11.6) those are numbers that not take into account possible experimental engineering, in practice auto-loader on MC and screening shell on frags increase sustained DPS by large margin, also both frags and MC can take corrosive experimental that increase armour penetration, so while shock cannons on paper look very good, they are not really that good. Compering all kinetic weapons, shock cannons have SIGNIFICANTLY higher thermal and distributor draw than weapons their compete. Another reason is that DPS of shock cannons like frags is hard to maintain due to how trigger mechanism work and increased spread with maximum rate of fire, but frags have much better DPE(damage per mega-joule of energy)
To sum up, i would suggest to DOUBLE the total ammo of shock cannons in all variants, especially with hit-points inflation in both PvE and PvP.
FD, please don't allow your baby to be kept alone in storage:)
 

dm06

dm06
You missed falloff damage and armour piercing from your calculations. This leads us to a point that probably you still need to learn when and how to use them properly.🙃
 

cmdr Ramius007

C
YES, taking this into account may actually be a reason to triple ammo count on them:) Corrosive effect is standard on at least one MC or frag and cannons have 10 point higher AP without experimental. If i would add all calculations you would probably stop reading it in half, and never comment on this:)
 

dm06

dm06
Well, the thing we should admit that the weapon is not so good for long sessions like combat zones, killing 72 pirates and so on. At least without synthesis.
Adding more ammo will make it best weapon and no one in sane will use mcs, cannons, frags, don't you think so?
 

RamirezKurita

R
You shouldn't compare shock cannons to a full G5 modded weapon, remember that most tech broker stuff is there for those that don't want to go through the effort of engineering stuff and are willing to sacrifice a bit of performance for the convenience of not needing to engineer dozens of weapons. Try comparing Shock Cannons to a G3 or G4 modded weapon and the comparison becomes far more favourable towards them.
 

IndigoWyrd

IndigoWyrd
How about the simple fact that you can only take down 1 ship for sure, maybe 2 before they’re either out of ammo or too low to risk another engagement as proof more ammo is required?

Or just a quick head count of the number of people using them?
 

Chaparral

Chaparral
If the synth prices weren't so awful, it would be tolerable. With the synth prices AND the bad damage cap (total max damage possible relative to other kinetics), this weapon remains in storage. It's too bad, the model, the animated rounds, and the audio are all awesome for this weapon.
 

cmdr Ramius007

C
RamirezKurita said:
You shouldn't compare shock cannons to a full G5 modded weapon, remember that most tech broker stuff is there for those that don't want to go through the effort of engineering stuff and are willing to sacrifice a bit of performance for the convenience of not needing to engineer dozens of weapons. Try comparing Shock Cannons to a G3 or G4 modded weapon and the comparison becomes far more favourable towards them.
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1. There is no convenience in keeping a lot of shock cannons in storage, you can buy them only in shinrata and human tech broker systems.
2. I give comparison to g 5 mod weapons WITHOUT experimental, you can make this kind of engineering using pinned blueprints and engineer for kinetics(Tod blaster) is one of first you unlock anyway.
3. Current ammo in practice is that with 2 c3 gimbals along with 2 other medium weapons you don't have enough ammo to kill 2 high ranked big ships in assassination, we are not talking massacre missions here, just 1 (ONE) killed ship, so actually they are useless in those missions too, not mentioning wing assassinations! Hit-points inflation is real, not only in PvP. And wea re talking SIZE 3, what is purpose of c1 shock cannons then?
4. Another problem with shock cannons is that they are in practice not superior to other weapons, just unique, have pros and cons, paper stats are theoretical, in practice you never get those kinds of DPS, like frag cannons, and drawbacks are huge. 2 c3 shock cannons overheat clipper with armoured power plant, i think its not minor drawback. I can think of 1 ship that can use them as primary weapon and not overheat without low emissions power plant and/or multiple heat-sinks, its huge consideration.
 
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cmdr Ramius007

C
shock cannon could potentially end dilemma of any clipper pilot: frags or multis:)
BTW i completely don't get arguments whatever its about human tech or guardian weapons that they should not be equal to g5 engineered standard weapons.
If we consider that even experienced player who owns a fleet and have tens of fully engineered weapons, i wouldn't expect from him to have more than 8-10 fully modded weapons of same class and size, In practice even if you unlock some stuff in tech broker, its very unlikely you are going to use it on all of your ships as primary weapons and unlock cost for just single variant is worth several g5 engineered weapons. Technetium and tungsten are most precious raw materials used in weapons engineering, you need over 20 of both, vanadium or focus crystals while more common are also very important engineering materials, while rhenium being low grade can be obtained from mining only, those are all reasons to make tech broker weapon at least as good as g5 modded weapons.
 

cmdr Ramius007

C
Attack Chimp said:
You're asking for a surgical weapon to be converted into a wooden mallet.

Shock Cannons should be used for single engagements.
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Where in weapon description is stated they are in any way "surgical"? They have similar total damage to c1 rail gun, which of those 2 guns is more surgical?:) Packhound with 400% DPS of the highest grade 5 engineered c2 gimbal with synthesis requiring lowest grade raw materials are more surgical maybe?:)
If you mean single engagements, please take medium ship to pvp fight in one of mediums with full shock cannons vs another medium(against big ship with SCB you may hi wake before combat start), when you come back tell everybody in this topic with how much shields/hull your target last(i you survive), i bet $ against your nuts that if you equip full shock cannon loadout, you run out of ammo in half of the fight. I bet you have 0 or very little pvp experience and how much hit-points those ships have, anybody who want ammo count unchanged may easily call this weapon Mobius only gun. In PvP you have only SINGLE TARGETS, forget killing more than 1 ship without MULTIPLE synthesis.
And now we are talking medium and large variants, what is purpose of c1 then? killing harmless sidewinders? Do you think beginner entry weapon have unlock requirements of ca. 25 tungsten, technetium and focus crystals?
I m not asking in this thread to match total hit points with multi-cannons or plasma acc(maybe i should given mentioned earlier drawbacks), just make it on par with frags and cannons- both are not top tier weapons by any means.
 
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cmdr Ramius007

C
Nadreck said:
I'm guessing they do kinetic damage?

Changing it to Absolute would be interesting.
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Yes, its kinetic damage, i like idea of absolute damage, but maybe on new weapon -plasma shock cannons with even more thermal and distributor load, something compered to overcharged plasma accelerator in DPS/DPE but working in a similar way, IIRC, some screenshot suggested that actually is plasma based weapon.
It's really heartbreaking, that there are some great ideas in the game, but good implementation is somehow missing, we could start debate why guardian weapons are trash vs human targets and so on, but its not point of this thread.
 

Vasious

Vasious
cmdr Ramius007 said:
Yes, its kinetic damage, i like idea of absolute damage, but maybe on new weapon -plasma shock cannons with even more thermal and distributor load, something compered to overcharged plasma accelerator in DPS/DPE but working in a similar way, IIRC, some screenshot suggested that actually is plasma based weapon.
It's really heartbreaking, that there are some great ideas in the game, but good implementation is somehow missing, we could start debate why guardian weapons are trash vs human targets and so on, but its not point of this thread.
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Fun Fact, the Shock Cannons are labelled Plasma CNN on the Models, and were described as energy cannons in the original beta when they were introduced.
When people asked why they were Kinetic only damage, with no absolute damage portion, in a bug report, they fixed it by changing the description to remove the word "Energy"

Clearly at some point in development they were Plasma weapons, I'd Say the Ship versions of the Plasma Repeaters we see on SRVs and SLF Lore wise, but come the beta it was changed.

Not sure how this isn't some Hybrid Damage and not pure kinetic, it really looks like a plasma, with the containment coil on the gun

133868
 
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CMDR X

CMDR X
Non-scientific reason why shock cannons should have increased total ammo:

JUST BECAUSE!!!

It's my favorite weapon.. :sneaky:
 

Morbad

Morbad
Shock Cannon aren't supposed to compete with G5 engineered weapons. They are experimental prototypes and can't be modded.

If and when they ever move to a production phase, then how they compare will be more relevant. Until then they are quite deliberately novelty weapons with very situational utility.

cmdr Ramius007 said:
those are all reasons to make tech broker weapon at least as good as g5 modded weapons.
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Less than an hour of work for someone with Horizons will unlock shock cannon (and it's possible to unlock them without Horizons, with more time), which can then be purchased in complete form with credits. A single complete G5 mod is a greater investment.

They aren't supposed to be competitive with Engineered weapons, nor do I think they should be.
 
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cmdr Ramius007

C
Morbad said:
A single complete G5 mod is a greater investment.
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I would love too see your magic way to obtain 25 technetium or tungsten in less than 1 hour. And like i said earlier only real price of engineering those days are g5 materials, rest is just by-product of getting those. And because lack of experimental munition available to them they will never be equal to g5 modded weapons.
Morbad said:
Shock Cannon aren't supposed to compete with G5 engineered weapons. They are experimental prototypes and can't be modded
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Any in game evidence for this statement? Because i found this:
Cannon capable of firing almost as fast the trigger can be pulled, firing very accurate, fast moving energy projectiles that can do high damage if successive shots land. The weapon has a built in auto loading action that will slowly reload over time. If the clip empties completely, a longer full reload will be undertaken.


— In-Game Description

Do you have something better?
Morbid, how many shock cannons u have on your PvP ships and why its 0:)?
 
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