PvP Seeking advice and clarification on Feedback Rails

[CMDR Full Spectrum]

I'm new to PVP and I'm looking for advice on Feedback Cascade Railguns. Basically, I've been a little underwhelmed with the result. I've read a number of conflicting things about them, but after scouring the patch notes here is what I think is their current state:

As of 2.2.03:

Feedback Cascade no longer provides a fixed 90% reduction to healing, instead each hit reduces the healing rate by an amount proportional to damage capped at -90% as before. Exact number of hits to reach the cap varies based on size of weapon and shield cell, but will typically be 2-3 (requiring either high skill or multiple railguns) and up to 5 for smaller weapons against size 8 cell banks

So I think, cool, I'll put two Long Range Cascade Rails in my small hardpoints on my Corvette. I show up at this week's CG, drop into a Haz Res, and try my luck. Against both NPCs and PCs, I was a little disappointed. During the charge animation, when I see the shield pulse line traveling along the length of the ship, I swear I get four hits out (each, so 8 total small rail hits), but it seems like nothing happens. Same ship thirty seconds later, starts charging, I land three shots with both rails, but I still see the shields recharge. What's more, I target their SCB and... 100%, full health! So at this point I'm a little miffed and I throw all my internals into an anaconda (because the medium/small hardpoints have better grouping in the center), and go back out with FOUR rails, 2 Medium and 2 Small, ALL feedback cascade... and same deal, disappointment.

What are all of your experiences with Cascade? Is the nerf really this significant, or am I doing something wrong? I thought I would immerse myself in the "git gud" mentality of PVP by doing 2 huge PAs and 2 small rails on my corvette, switching between the two as the PAs cycled, but now I'm feeling like I should just focus my full attention on landing PA hits and just take the brute-force approach against SCBs... I appreciate all of your advice!

 

[Morbad]

You are firing too late. You need to land hits during the SCB spool up time, before there is any charging done. This window can be as short as 3.5 seconds (even less with certain grandfathered mods), so you need to be quick.

 

[Feros-da-Grundig]

You are firing too late. You need to land hits during the SCB spool up time, before there is any charging done. This window can be as short as 3.5 seconds (even less with certain grandfathered mods), so you need to be quick.

Is the visual cue (the shimmer) for spool period vs. application period different? I haven't been able to tell yet, although can tell from the results whether i hit in the right time window or not.

 

[Bigmaec]

I was always wondering myself...
Can someone educated please post pictures of WHEN to hit? Thx in advance.

 

[Morbad]

Is the visual cue (the shimmer) for spool period vs. application period different? I haven't been able to tell yet, although can tell from the results whether i hit in the right time window or not.

The visual cue isn't any different, you just need to shoot as soon as soon as it starts, if at all possible.

If you see the (-) effect indicator, it worked. If not, you missed the window.

I was always wondering myself...
Can someone educated please post pictures of WHEN to hit? Thx in advance.

[video=youtube;6RI2s_FKgNU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6RI2s_FKgNU[/video]

That's my most recent example, which is PvE (very few DG CMDRs appear to have SCBs, unsurprisingly), but it's a clear illustration of the timing at close range. Note that in PvP I would almost never leave my section of fire groups that have railguns as rapid charge SCBs are far more common on CMDRs than NPCs, and the time to switch groups can make all the difference. The reason I'm using the groups this way here is because I don't like to use ammo on NPCs if I don't have to.

Standard practice is to tag your nearest rail using opponent with drag (if you've got it) and then boost past them just as you activate your SCB, in the hopes that by the time they get a firing solution you've finished spooling up. Ships much faster than their opponents can just get out of range to use SCBs safely.

Because the feedback window is often so small, it's also standard practice for feedback rail users to just spam the snot out of their rails as soon as their SCB equipped opponent gets low on shields, in the hopes of catching the SCB spool up as soon as it starts.

A few PvP examples, that include successful and unsuccessful attempts to cancel SCBs (often on both sides):

https://youtu.be/IYq2gS06w84?t=365

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9cZrIy5gH3A

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=COvqulqYtus

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aeo4TLubk_8

 

[Lucius-Darcia]

Is the visual cue (the shimmer) for spool period vs. application period different? I haven't been able to tell yet, although can tell from the results whether i hit in the right time window or not.

Yes it is, the shimmer animation is showen during the whole process of the shield cell, but only in the first 5 seconds (non-engineered) the feedback cascade has the supposed effect. This means, if the target is behind you, spin up the SCB and you make a turn and see the shimmer, you have missed already your chance and the SCB will run through completely.

You really need to be fast, than it works properly and i'm very satisfied with 'em. Makes it much easier to take out elite NPC's and those in CZ's.
Engineered SCB's can have a reduce spin up time of 3.5 seconds! The dual feedback rail is overall a very good choice! Hitting 3 volleys in this time frame releases the full effect but 2 hits are more realistic and have already significant advantage in both PvE and PvP.

 

[Feros-da-Grundig]

The visual cue isn't any different, you just need to shoot as soon as soon as it starts, if at all possible.

If you see the (-) effect indicator, it worked. If not, you missed the window.

Yes it is, the shimmer animation is showen during the whole process of the shield cell, but only in the first 5 seconds (non-engineered) the feedback cascade has the supposed effect. This means, if the target is behind you, spin up the SCB and you make a turn and see the shimmer, you have missed already your chance and the SCB will run through completely.

You really need to be fast, than it works properly and i'm very satisfied with 'em. Makes it much easier to take out elite NPC's and those in CZ's.
Engineered SCB's can have a reduce spin up time of 3.5 seconds! The dual feedback rail is overall a very good choice! Hitting 3 volleys in this time frame releases the full effect but 2 hits are more realistic and have already significant advantage in both PvE and PvP.

Yeah I've realized the engineered 3.5s effect basically means my loadouts where rails are on firegroup 2 are basically useless in PvP, since the 3.5 second window gives very little room for error. Not a problem for typical PvP builds where rails will be in primary but I have a pirate chally with a feedback rail in group 2. I sparred my buddy's vette and found I couldn't swap firegroups and then still hit within 3.5 second window. So it's basically not worth it for me to carry a rail on that build anyway, unless I make it part of primary firegroup, or proactively swap in group 2 as shield decay as morbad suggested.

Which is fine, it's not like I'm taking out a serious PvP ship from a pirate build anyway unless the guy is no good, in which case I probably don't need the rail last FdL that chally beat did me the favor of cooking himself with his SCBs so why would I need to cancel them! ;-)

Thanks Lucius for confirming my suspicions about the shimmer being constant, and thank you Morbad about the (-) indicator which I did not realize.

 

[Rebel Yell]

...but I have a pirate chally with a feedback rail in group 2. I sparred my buddy's vette and found I couldn't swap firegroups and then still hit within 3.5 second window. So it's basically not worth it for me to carry a rail on that build anyway, unless I make it part of primary firegroup, or proactively swap in group 2 as shield decay as morbad suggested.

Ahoy! I 'ave done the same on me boats... unfertunately me still undecided 'bout what to put in the C1 'ardpoints. LR penetrators? Enforcers MC? Seekers? A battery of crypto scramblers to take down shields? Who knows...

 

[TheMegaTurnip]

Overatted. Get bigger guns.

Unless you're up against a millionscbbanknspank big boi.

Then yeah. You need one.

 

[Crimson Kaim]

The animation is slightly different. The rings move faster and the whole shield starts glowing. During the spin up, the rings have a fixed speed and the shield doesn't glow.
As for the rest, this thread explained it pretty well.

 

[Morbad]

The animation is slightly different.

So it is. Thanks for the correction.

 

[CMDR Full Spectrum]

Wow, thank you everyone for the great responses! I feel like I have a much better idea for my strategy and what to look for, so I'm going to commit myself to trying a few times more to get comfortable with the timing, but I suspect that juggling Rails AND PAs are simply splitting my attention too much and causing my aim and DPS for both to suffer. Cheers.