General Seperate Bounties and Penalties.

[Sunleader]

Since its nearly an Hour since the last Crime and Punishment Topic. I tought I should make a new one ^^

Suggestion is Simple.
Seperate Bounties and Penalties.

Right now. If you Kill someone and get Caught. You basicly Pay off your Bounty.
But that really makes no Sense.
After all. That Bounty is Far lower than the Damages you caused.

Instead we should have 2 Values.

1. Bounty
2. Penalty

The Bounty would work as it does right now.
The more you do the higher the Price on your Head. And when you get Killed. That Price is Paid out to the one who Killed you.

The Penalty is what you actually Pay when you get Caught.
If you Attack a Ship the Penalty is Equal to the Repair Cost + the Bounty
If you Destroy a Ship the Penalty is Equal to the Ship Value + the Bounty
If you Rob someone the Penalty is Equal to the Stolen Cargo + the Bounty
Of course stacking if you do Multiple of these.

The Penalty hereby is Time Sensitive.
Right after the Last Damages you Caused. (Killing, Attacking or Robbing someone)
The Penalty will be Locked together with the Bounty. Meaning you cannot Pay it off.
After the Lock Lifts allowing you to Pay off your Bounty. The Penalty can also be Payed off.
Paying Off the Penalty yourself will Cost 50% of the Penalty Value. So if you Destroyed a Ship Valued at 50 Million then if you Pay it Off you only Pay 25 Million.
But the Penalty at this Point will still be the Full Amount for 2 Days.

After 2 Days without being Caught the Penalty will Start Dropping by 10% every Day.
Meaning After 3 Days without being Caught the Penalty would 45 Million. 4 Days 40 Million etc.
Of course if you Commit any other Murders, Attacks, Robberies. This will stop the Decay of the Penalty and the 2 Day Timer will be Reset.

If you get Caught. You have to Pay the Full Penalty that Remains without the 50% Discount you get for Paying it off yourself.



That means assuming you Destroy a Ship that Cost 10 Million.
If you get Killed within 2 Days of your Crime. You will have to Pay the Full Price of the Ship you Destroyed. Meaning you pay 10 Million + Your Bounty.
If you Pay off the Crime yourself before being Caught. You will have to Pay 50% of the Penalty. 5 Million + Your Bounty
If you get Killed after 4 Days you Pay the Penalty that has Decayed by 20% so 8 Million + Your Bounty.
If you Survive 12 Days without being Caught and without Adding New Crimes. The Penalty will have Decayed to 0. Meaning you only have to Pay your Bounty now.



This would on one Hand allow Criminals like Pirates to actually have the Victory. After all if they Kill their Target and then Survive 12 Days they no longer have to Pay Damages.
But at the same Time if a Pirate gets Caught he will actually have to Pay Quite Badly for it.
Paying Yourself Out will still be Pretty Expensive but will be Better than being Caught.



Well then.
Let the Ganker Whining Beginn ^^

 

[Rubbernuke]

So you are taking the old bounty system and bolting on the new one to it? Plus you are confused regards what fines, assaults and bounties are in the game.

Let the Ganker Whining Begin

This proposal won't fix gankers, it just makes legit combative PvE gameplay even more convoluted. Why not just make bounties reflect the value of the ships (as they almost do now)?

 

[Sunleader]

So you are taking the old bounty system and bolting on the new one to it? Plus you are confused regards what fines, assaults and bounties are in the game.



This proposal won't fix gankers, it just makes legit combative PvE gameplay even more convoluted. Why not just make bounties reflect the value of the ships (as they almost do now)?

No.
Bounties and Fines are not Related to this.
Fines Stay the same way as now. So do Bounties.

Penalties is a New Value Directly Equal to the amount of Destruction you Caused.
Its neither a Fine nor a Bounty.
But basicly an Damages Claim for what you Destroyed.

This has never Existed so far.



The Reason why I dont think making the Bounty Itself Reflect the Value of Destruction. Is because it tends to be Abused alot.
After all. If the Bounty is Close or Equal to the Damage you Caused. Then you can always get a Friend to just Kill you to Cash the Bounty by killing you and thus get almost all the Money Back.

Hence the Value should be Purely a Penalty you have to Pay. Not something another Player can Collect.
So that this Money cannot be Recouped to any Notable Degree Unless you Manage to Escape the Authorities for about 2 Weeks.



Also.
I havnt been Involved in a While.
Did they Introduce Higher Bounties ?
Cause last time I looked. Bounties was usually stuff like a few 100k and a few Million in Extreme Cases.
If my Conda got Destroyed its about 20 Million Rebuy alone. The Value of the Ship is way over 400 Million.
I doubt thats currently the Bounty someone would get for Killing me ????

 

[Speedcuffs]

No.
Bounties and Fines are not Related to this.
Fines Stay the same way as now. So do Bounties.

Penalties is a New Value Directly Equal to the amount of Destruction you Caused.
Its neither a Fine nor a Bounty.
But basicly an Damages Claim for what you Destroyed.

This has never Existed so far.



The Reason why I dont think making the Bounty Itself Reflect the Value of Destruction. Is because it tends to be Abused alot.
After all. If the Bounty is Close or Equal to the Damage you Caused. Then you can always get a Friend to just Kill you to Cash the Bounty by killing you and thus get almost all the Money Back.

Hence the Value should be Purely a Penalty you have to Pay. Not something another Player can Collect.
So that this Money cannot be Recouped to any Notable Degree Unless you Manage to Escape the Authorities for about 2 Weeks.



Also.
I havnt been Involved in a While.
Did they Introduce Higher Bounties ?
Cause last time I looked. Bounties was usually stuff like a few 100k and a few Million in Extreme Cases.
If my Conda got Destroyed its about 20 Million Rebuy alone. The Value of the Ship is way over 400 Million.
I doubt thats currently the Bounty someone would get for Killing me ????

I notice you don't mention notoriety?
Not knocking your suggestions, but when have you last looked into how fines/bounties/notoriety work?
Some people are hacked off with the current penalties system: It isn't the player killers.

 

[Rubbernuke]

No.
Bounties and Fines are not Related to this.
Fines Stay the same way as now. So do Bounties.

Penalties is a New Value Directly Equal to the amount of Destruction you Caused.
Its neither a Fine nor a Bounty.
But basicly an Damages Claim for what you Destroyed.

This has never Existed so far.



The Reason why I dont think making the Bounty Itself Reflect the Value of Destruction. Is because it tends to be Abused alot.
After all. If the Bounty is Close or Equal to the Damage you Caused. Then you can always get a Friend to just Kill you to Cash the Bounty by killing you and thus get almost all the Money Back.

Hence the Value should be Purely a Penalty you have to Pay. Not something another Player can Collect.
So that this Money cannot be Recouped to any Notable Degree Unless you Manage to Escape the Authorities for about 2 Weeks.



Also.
I havnt been Involved in a While.
Did they Introduce Higher Bounties ?
Cause last time I looked. Bounties was usually stuff like a few 100k and a few Million in Extreme Cases.
If my Conda got Destroyed its about 20 Million Rebuy alone. The Value of the Ship is way over 400 Million.
I doubt thats currently the Bounty someone would get for Killing me ????

Notoriety acts as a multiplier- when I BGS murderkill NOT 1 is low, about 200k but escalates the more I kill, so at NOT 10 any NPC I do in is 2 million. The same applies for players, but at a higher rate.

If you want punishment to mean anything you have to first make credits actually mean something. Credit inflation means you can pay off almost anything and that punishing by charging credits is meaningless and just a formality.

 

[Sunleader]

I notice you don't mention notoriety?
Not knocking your suggestions, but when have you last looked into how fines/bounties/notoriety work?
Some people are hacked off with the current penalties system: It isn't the player killers.

Notoriety acts as a multiplier- when I BGS murderkill NOT 1 is low, about 200k but escalates the more I kill, so at NOT 10 any NPC I do in is 2 million. The same applies for players, but at a higher rate.

If you want punishment to mean anything you have to first make credits actually mean something. Credit inflation means you can pay off almost anything and that punishing by charging credits is meaningless and just a formality.

Oh. There being a Multiplier is New to me.
When I last Checked the Notoriety was just a Minor Annoyance causing higher Skill NPCs and Security to Spawn on you.
And it was easy to get rid off as you could just Park in a Safe System for a Night and let the Game Run. Thus Notoriety being Gone the next Day as it Decayed every few Hours.


And No.
Read what I say. The Penalty is the Ship or Cargo Value you Destroy.
If you Destroy an Anaconda that is worth 400 Million Credits. That is your Penalty.
Pay it off after 2 Days you still Pay 200 Million. Die and go to Detention Center. Have Fun Paying Full 400 Million Credits.

Credit Inflation is a Problem. But this cannot be Solved anymore without a Hard Currency Reset and Complete Pricing Rework.
None of which is Likely to happen.

But it can be Dealt with by Simply Increasing the Bounties to Fit the Inflation.


Effectively just Assume the Current System.
But in Addition to the 2 Million Bounty per Kill. You get a 200 Million Penalty per Kill that you have to Pay if you Die in the next 12 Days.
Pls Note Tough. I would Apply that ONLY to Insured Members of the Pilots Federation. (Aka Players)
So Killing an NPC will not Accrue such Penalties.



I am used to Play Hardcore Full Loot MMOs.
That means your Action tend to Carry Consequences.
You can Kill anyone and fully loot him. Meaning you might end up Destroying the Work another Player has taken Months for.
But for doing that you also have to bear a Risk Equal to that.
So if you get Killed you might lose additional Weeks or even Months of Grind from your Character.
Thats how Hardcore Games work.

 

[RellTyr]

I pretty much said this in my post, the bounty + fine works, as it closes the alt loophole of getting a friend to kill you to receive credits.

A Way to Fix Ganking Forever

Problem: Gankers (higher ranking players attacking defenseless noobs) are let off too easy. Solution: - Incremental fine of 10% to 50% of the offending CMDR's total equity, by taking into account the disparity value of the players's equities (the total value of each CMDR's credits, ships...

forums.frontier.co.uk

 

[Rubbernuke]

I pretty much said this in my post, the bounty + fine works, as it closes the alt loophole of getting a friend to kill you to receive credits.

A Way to Fix Ganking Forever

Problem: Gankers (higher ranking players attacking defenseless noobs) are let off too easy. Solution: - Incremental fine of 10% to 50% of the offending CMDR's total equity, by taking into account the disparity value of the players's equities (the total value of each CMDR's credits, ships...

forums.frontier.co.uk

And the same mistake- credits are not a deterrent.

 

[Rubbernuke]

Oh. There being a Multiplier is New to me.
When I last Checked the Notoriety was just a Minor Annoyance causing higher Skill NPCs and Security to Spawn on you.
And it was easy to get rid off as you could just Park in a Safe System for a Night and let the Game Run. Thus Notoriety being Gone the next Day as it Decayed every few Hours.

If you are chain killing you'll never get rid of it though, and it remains high.

Read what I say. The Penalty is the Ship or Cargo Value you Destroy.
If you Destroy an Anaconda that is worth 400 Million Credits. That is your Penalty.
Pay it off after 2 Days you still Pay 200 Million. Die and go to Detention Center. Have Fun Paying Full 400 Million Credits.

People can make 400 million in a few hours these days- and that presumes they are destroyed. Who is going to kill them?

Credit Inflation is a Problem. But this cannot be Solved anymore without a Hard Currency Reset and Complete Pricing Rework.
None of which is Likely to happen.

Agreed.

But it can be Dealt with by Simply Increasing the Bounties to Fit the Inflation.

You'd have to inflate the credits much more then. But in reality your idea is still punative against PvE and not greifing. Ganking is allowed in the game.

Effectively just Assume the Current System.
But in Addition to the 2 Million Bounty per Kill. You get a 200 Million Penalty per Kill that you have to Pay if you Die in the next 12 Days.
Pls Note Tough. I would Apply that ONLY to Insured Members of the Pilots Federation. (Aka Players)
So Killing an NPC will not Accrue such Penalties.

The system has to work across both NPCs and players- players have to take responsibility as much as they can for their own safety. Plus, criminal gameplay has to mirror your idea- if the stakes are high on destruction then its only fair criminals get gameplay unlocked to make credits (but at the same time shuts the door on law abiding ways of making money).

I am used to Play Hardcore Full Loot MMOs.
That means your Action tend to Carry Consequences.
You can Kill anyone and fully loot him. Meaning you might end up Destroying the Work another Player has taken Months for.
But for doing that you also have to bear a Risk Equal to that.
So if you get Killed you might lose additional Weeks or even Months of Grind from your Character.
Thats how Hardcore Games work.

You don't lose very much in ED- you keep your mats, money, modules etc and only lose your ship and what it was carrying. At most its mining materials, data or some mission critical item.

 

[Ytterium]

Just wanted to weigh in here as a former lurker.

If you Rob someone the Penalty is Equal to the Stolen Cargo + the Bounty

PvP Piracy is already dead--don't add further disincentive what is pretty much the only semi-profitable criminal path. If people want to be paid for PvP bounty hunting, PvP crime should also pay. If such penalties are implemented, Piracy and other criminal paths should also be substantially increased in profitability--if there is 400 mil on the line from pirating an anaconda that didnt hand over their painite, there should be commensurate reward for the risk a pirate undertakes for this. Also, getting rank 5 with Archon would be very nice for this sort of thing.

Credit Inflation is a Problem. But this cannot be Solved anymore without a Hard Currency Reset and Complete Pricing Rework.
None of which is Likely to happen.

But it can be Dealt with by Simply Increasing the Bounties to Fit the Inflation.

If bounties are increased, rebuys and piracy profits should be increased. Also, this conflicts with your later parallels drawn with hardcore MMOs.

I am used to Play Hardcore Full Loot MMOs.
That means your Action tend to Carry Consequences.
You can Kill anyone and fully loot him. Meaning you might end up Destroying the Work another Player has taken Months for.
But for doing that you also have to bear a Risk Equal to that.
So if you get Killed you might lose additional Weeks or even Months of Grind from your Character.
Thats how Hardcore Games work.

Elite is neither full loot, nor hardcore. PvP kills do not drop materials, and usually do not provide any form of monetary compensation. Furthermore, months of work are not at stake (unless you're an ironman madlad), as you get your ship back for pennies on the dollar, and can earn numerous rebuys in under an hour of mining/robigo. Why should criminals have to shoulder such risks when there are next to no benefits to doing so?

The Penalty hereby is Time Sensitive.
Right after the Last Damages you Caused. (Killing, Attacking or Robbing someone)
The Penalty will be Locked together with the Bounty. Meaning you cannot Pay it off.
After the Lock Lifts allowing you to Pay off your Bounty. The Penalty can also be Payed off.
Paying Off the Penalty yourself will Cost 50% of the Penalty Value. So if you Destroyed a Ship Valued at 50 Million then if you Pay it Off you only Pay 25 Million.
But the Penalty at this Point will still be the Full Amount for 2 Days.

After 2 Days without being Caught the Penalty will Start Dropping by 10% every Day.
Meaning After 3 Days without being Caught the Penalty would 45 Million. 4 Days 40 Million etc.
Of course if you Commit any other Murders, Attacks, Robberies. This will stop the Decay of the Penalty and the 2 Day Timer will be Reset.

So rack up huge penalties, and then log off for a week or so and you're good? Wouldn't people just whine about this in the same way they whine about notoriety?

Read what I say. The Penalty is the Ship or Cargo Value you Destroy.
If you Destroy an Anaconda that is worth 400 Million Credits. That is your Penalty.
Pay it off after 2 Days you still Pay 200 Million. Die and go to Detention Center. Have Fun Paying Full 400 Million Credits.

Why should the criminal have to pay that when the victim only pays 5% of that? I like that it decays, but isn't this just making it really really profitable to get ganked?

Also would these be tied to ships or CMDRs? If attached to ships, would the time only count while in the ship?

 

[Sunleader]

If you are chain killing you'll never get rid of it though, and it remains high.



People can make 400 million in a few hours these days- and that presumes they are destroyed. Who is going to kill them?



Agreed.



You'd have to inflate the credits much more then. But in reality your idea is still punative against PvE and not greifing. Ganking is allowed in the game.



The system has to work across both NPCs and players- players have to take responsibility as much as they can for their own safety. Plus, criminal gameplay has to mirror your idea- if the stakes are high on destruction then its only fair criminals get gameplay unlocked to make credits (but at the same time shuts the door on law abiding ways of making money).



You don't lose very much in ED- you keep your mats, money, modules etc and only lose your ship and what it was carrying. At most its mining materials, data or some mission critical item.

1.
Thats the Point.
If you dont stop it will Accumulate ever Higher.

2.
Sure can. But its still a few Hours Work. And do that 10 Times and your on 30 Hours Grind
As for Killing them. If they dont get Killed they got Away. There has to be a way to Win. Its not Supposed to be a Guaranteed Penalty.
If you want to Stop Killing in General Remove Player Damage. Otherwise you need to keep a System that Allows Winning out as the Bad Guy.

3.
Given that Killing 10 Players might end up setting you up for a 4 Billion Penalty. I do think this Inflates very Quickly.

4.
I do Agree that there needs to be Bigger Illegal Activities in General.
Its Hilarious how Smuggling for most Part makes less Credits than Regular Trade.
I dont see that being in Piracy or Killing Players. Because dont get me Wrong. But here the Risk is Supposed to be much Higher than the Reward.
The Reward is simply that you can get something for Free without Buying it.
Which means if you Steal a Full Cargo of Tritium which a Trader Bought for 35k and wanted to Sell for 44k thus getting 9k Profit per Ton. You should get 30-40k Profit from it instead.

The Problem here is also that Economy in ED is messed up The Prices are Completely Bonkers in some Cases.
A Fighter Costing just 20k while another costs 20 Million etc....

5.
Yes I know. But dont Forget. The Penalty just goes out if you get Caught.
If you dont get Caught the Penalty Dissappears entirely.

Just wanted to weigh in here as a former lurker.

PvP Piracy is already dead--don't add further disincentive what is pretty much the only semi-profitable criminal path. If people want to be paid for PvP bounty hunting, PvP crime should also pay. If such penalties are implemented, Piracy and other criminal paths should also be substantially increased in profitability--if there is 400 mil on the line from pirating an anaconda that didnt hand over their painite, there should be commensurate reward for the risk a pirate undertakes for this. Also, getting rank 5 with Archon would be very nice for this sort of thing.


If bounties are increased, rebuys and piracy profits should be increased. Also, this conflicts with your later parallels drawn with hardcore MMOs.


Elite is neither full loot, nor hardcore. PvP kills do not drop materials, and usually do not provide any form of monetary compensation. Furthermore, months of work are not at stake (unless you're an ironman madlad), as you get your ship back for pennies on the dollar, and can earn numerous rebuys in under an hour of mining/robigo. Why should criminals have to shoulder such risks when there are next to no benefits to doing so?


So rack up huge penalties, and then log off for a week or so and you're good? Wouldn't people just whine about this in the same way they whine about notoriety?


Why should the criminal have to pay that when the victim only pays 5% of that? I like that it decays, but isn't this just making it really really profitable to get ganked?

Also would these be tied to ships or CMDRs? If attached to ships, would the time only count while in the ship?

1.
Its Dead because the Economy in ED just makes no Sense.
Full Cargo Hold Stolen gives you like 2-3 Million and thats Generous. While Insurance alone often Costs 20 Million for a Ship Carrying such Large Cargo.
Which is Ridiculous...

But thats a problem with the Game.
They would need to actually up Cargo Values and Add more High Value Cargo. Where the Load is worth 50 Million with maybe 2-3 Million Profit for the Trader Carrying it. Which however also means that if a Pirate Catches someone like that. He would get 30-40 Million Profit from that Cargo.

Thing is. ED really isnt a good Choice for this in the First Place.
If you ask me. PvP should be Removed from Elite Dangerous with the Exception of War and Power Play etc.
Because beyond that its just really not fitting the Game.

2.
See Above

3.
Agreed. I guess the Penalty should be Rebuy rather than Full Ship Value.
Point Taken.

4.
People will Whine about almost anything either ways. So I dont really count that as Argument.

5.
The Base Idea is that the Claim is Made by the Insurance Company. Not the Pilot.
But as I said. I do agree that using the Rebuy makes more Sense.

6.
Same way as Notoriety. So it Sticks to the Commander. The Penalty makes no Sense to be Bound to the Ship. Cause if you take a Sidewinder you.ll still not Pay less.
Actually it should Encourage Pirates to not take a Cheap Ship. After all its Supposed to Prevent the Current thing of Pirates letting themselves getting Killed on Purpose to reduce Notoriety and Bounties etc.

 

[Rat Catcher]

Full Cargo Hold Stolen gives you like 2-3 Million and thats Generous. While Insurance alone often Costs 20 Million for a Ship Carrying such Large Cargo.
Which is Ridiculous...

Are you aware that if you, as a pirate, destroy another ship (be it player or NPC) prior to looting it, that there is no cargo dropped as it is destroyed?

People will Whine about almost anything either ways

Yes, I'd noticed...


Particularly those who wish this game to be EVE in cockpits...

 

[Dillon Fallon]

Realistically there needs to be a way of tying bounties to the CMDR and not the ship without the Sidewinder exploit.

You want to know how I avoided paying off the 2 billion bounty on my Anaconda? I simply sold it and cleaned the modules. An hour or so of mining would have been able to pay my actual costs there.