Serious Design flams needing fixing.

[The Magic Wombat]

OK, I have played the game for 2 weeks now, almost every day, and have to say, there are some important design problems with this game. hese include:

1. Last hit gets the kill. Huh??? I thought MMOs got rid of that right after Ultima Online. I am tired of pounding on some ship for 10 minutes and getting it down to the kill point only to have some AI ship come in, fire a shot, and all my effort is wasted. No loot. No credits. No kill. That is beyond a bad design. Yes, it is true I could wait for ship to be almost dead and then I steal the kill from the other player/ship, but is that really something we want to say is a good feature? Nope, major design flaw.

2. Security forces fly in front of my lasers, get hit, and then start to pummel me en masse as I am now wanted. Again, Huh? Who designed this? And please, don't tell me I should watch where I am firing and be aware of where all security ships are and what they are doing at all times. You can't. Your field of vision is artificially limited in this game, and you cannot know where every other ship is and what they are doing. Again, being tagged a criminal because some AI flies in front of your lasers is a bad design flaw.

3. Security forces ram into you--you are dead. Do I even have to say it--Huh? Are these things made of anti-matter? Again, serious design flaw.

Those three factors alone make fighting anywhere near another player, or an AI ship, or a location where another player or AI ship can appear, to be a very frustrating situation.

Now let's move on to other design flaws.

4. Turret weapon won't fire unless you have already been fired upon, or you have locked them into fixed forward fire. Seriously, who designed this stuff? The people that made the Obamacare website? I have my lasers out, my target locked, but because my target has not fired upon me, my lasers go all George Lucas on me and won't fire unless I am fired upon first? So, I must lock them into fixed mode, hit the target a bit, and HOPE the target fires on me so I can put the lasers back into turret mode.

5. Mob is almost dead--Frame Shift Detected. Goodbye kill and ten minutes of fighting. Wow, what great fun--the AI has determined it is gong to lose, so it runs away. I need the smallest font in the universe to type "whee" to scale on how much fun that is.

6. No storyline of any kind. None. What I do does not affect the outcome of anything, because tomorrow in the Elite Dangerous is going to be the same as yesterday.

7. The game is HOSTILE towards players interacting. No corps or guilds or anything. You can't even text your friends in game unless you are in the exact same system as they are, and in the same state of either frame shift or normal space. Wow. Cool, the first MMO that is indistinguishable from a solo-player game.

I know some people think this game is great, but for me, my homework is actually more fun to do.

 

[Astroniomix]

I think you failed the 2% rule for this game.

 

[Jim Chapman]

Yeah gotta fix those flams!

But seriously, the points you mention have been raised on many other threads before. In one case, there is actually a dev posting on the forum discussing the code she's writing to go in the next release to address the point you're complaining about.

I think your best option may be to go and do something else for a while (maybe even your homework, if that's what you really want!) - and come back and try the game after the next couple of releases.

 

[Flappers]

To address your points.

1. This doesn't actually happen any more. It was patched in 1.02 (I think it was that patch) to make the bounty hunting easier - although I was against this change but what can you do. But if you are attacking a ship, and some NPC comes in and takes the last hit, the kill credits go to the last player who attacked within the last 10 seconds. So if you did not attack the ship within the last 10 seconds, then you will lose the kill. If you did, then the kill goes to you.

2. I think they will be looking into this, as it's quite a prevalent issue being raised on the forums.

3. You might want to add some power into your shields. Ramming is a legitimate tactic. I use it against NPC's and Players in my Cobra. Full pips to shields, take out their shields first, aim for their belly and bam. No more ship. If you have shields up, and you can see someone coming in for the ram, put all power to shields to mitigate the damage.

4. It's designed in this way to prevent accidental fire. Can you imagine how many people would complain about turret weapons attacking the wrong target? You'd be surprised. Besides, turreted weapons are best suited for larger transport vehicles as a defensive mechanism. If you are in a dog fighting ship, you should be using fixed/ gimballed weapons for extra damage and firepower. Turreted is for ships that have slow turn rates, and low maneuverability.

5. Every man for himself. You can use the subsystems and take out his drives first. They are very easy to hit. It's being a strategist combat. Not just going in all pew-pew and hope for the best

6. Read the Galnet newsfeed. If you don't want to, then that's your problem. The game has a very rich story going on right now, very political. Remember, in ED you are the the "One Hero to Save the Galaxy" that other MMO's put into your head. In ED, you are a nobody, trying to survive in the galaxy. If you want to make economical changes, then you need to co-operate with other players, and work with them to shift the balance of power in a system.

7. Guilds are not coming into the game. It does not fit into this type of game. Though there will be Wings coming out in early March, which is a co-operative experience, allowing you to run missions/ bounties with your friends and share the rewards.


First and foremost. This game is a space simulator. Not a fantasy RPG. Once you get your head around that, your aggressiveness should subside.

And speaking about your aggressiveness, a tad unneeded don't you think? Constructive criticism is great, as it provides a discussion point, comparing design decisions to other bad things, and generally not being nice is just plain immature.

We all here like to hear constructive feedback so we can all discuss what changes are best for the game. But a lot of your points can already be explained by in game design, and how to encounter specific scenarios.

This is not a theme park MMO. You are not a god in this game.

You are a nobody, trying to survive. You make a name for yourself. The game will not do that for you like in other typical mmorpgs.

 

[Corwyn]

OK, I have played the game for 2 weeks now, almost every day, and have to say, there are some important design problems with this game. hese include:

1. Last hit gets the kill. Huh??? I thought MMOs got rid of that right after Ultima Online. I am tired of pounding on some ship for 10 minutes and getting it down to the kill point only to have some AI ship come in, fire a shot, and all my effort is wasted. No loot. No credits. No kill. That is beyond a bad design. Yes, it is true I could wait for ship to be almost dead and then I steal the kill from the other player/ship, but is that really something we want to say is a good feature? Nope, major design flaw.

2. Security forces fly in front of my lasers, get hit, and then start to pummel me en masse as I am now wanted. Again, Huh? Who designed this? And please, don't tell me I should watch where I am firing and be aware of where all security ships are and what they are doing at all times. You can't. Your field of vision is artificially limited in this game, and you cannot know where every other ship is and what they are doing. Again, being tagged a criminal because some AI flies in front of your lasers is a bad design flaw.

3. Security forces ram into you--you are dead. Do I even have to say it--Huh? Are these things made of anti-matter? Again, serious design flaw.

Those three factors alone make fighting anywhere near another player, or an AI ship, or a location where another player or AI ship can appear, to be a very frustrating situation.

Now let's move on to other design flaws.

4. Turret weapon won't fire unless you have already been fired upon, or you have locked them into fixed forward fire. Seriously, who designed this stuff? The people that made the Obamacare website? I have my lasers out, my target locked, but because my target has not fired upon me, my lasers go all George Lucas on me and won't fire unless I am fired upon first? So, I must lock them into fixed mode, hit the target a bit, and HOPE the target fires on me so I can put the lasers back into turret mode.

5. Mob is almost dead--Frame Shift Detected. Goodbye kill and ten minutes of fighting. Wow, what great fun--the AI has determined it is gong to lose, so it runs away. I need the smallest font in the universe to type "whee" to scale on how much fun that is.

6. No storyline of any kind. None. What I do does not affect the outcome of anything, because tomorrow in the Elite Dangerous is going to be the same as yesterday.

7. The game is HOSTILE towards players interacting. No corps or guilds or anything. You can't even text your friends in game unless you are in the exact same system as they are, and in the same state of either frame shift or normal space. Wow. Cool, the first MMO that is indistinguishable from a solo-player game.

I know some people think this game is great, but for me, my homework is actually more fun to do.

incorrect on all points.

If you can design build and market a better game, go for it.

 

[Joe Spivey]

6. No storyline of any kind. None. What I do does not affect the outcome of anything, because tomorrow in the Elite Dangerous is going to be the same as yesterday.

7. The game is HOSTILE towards players interacting. No corps or guilds or anything. You can't even text your friends in game unless you are in the exact same system as they are, and in the same state of either frame shift or normal space. Wow. Cool, the first MMO that is indistinguishable from a solo-player game.

No comment on the first few of your points because I have had no such experience.

As for 6) There is a story line. Have you not read the Galnet news reports? But you are right. Nothing you do as an individual will have a noticeable affect on the game. In ED you are just some guy with a ship. You are not a special snowflake there to save the universe. However, by working together with others to sway the outcome of faction actions you can have a huge affect... just that nobody will ever know your name or know about your part in it.

As for 7) No, there are no facilities in game for Corps or Guilds or anything. Again the game is about YOU and your journey... just how much research did you do before buying this game? What you say about the comms is true but when you are together with your friends the comms works. This is as intended. Gamewide communications was never in the design of the game.

 

[The Magic Wombat]

To address your points.

1. This doesn't actually happen any more. It was patched in 1.02 (I think it was that patch) to make the bounty hunting easier - although I was against this change but what can you do. But if you are attacking a ship, and some NPC comes in and takes the last hit, the kill credits go to the last player who attacked within the last 10 seconds. So if you did not attack the ship within the last 10 seconds, then you will lose the kill. If you did, then the kill goes to you.

2. I think they will be looking into this, as it's quite a prevalent issue being raised on the forums.

3. You might want to add some power into your shields. Ramming is a legitimate tactic. I use it against NPC's and Players in my Cobra. Full pips to shields, take out their shields first, aim for their belly and bam. No more ship. If you have shields up, and you can see someone coming in for the ram, put all power to shields to mitigate the damage.

4. It's designed in this way to prevent accidental fire. Can you imagine how many people would complain about turret weapons attacking the wrong target? You'd be surprised. Besides, turreted weapons are best suited for larger transport vehicles as a defensive mechanism. If you are in a dog fighting ship, you should be using fixed/ gimballed weapons for extra damage and firepower. Turreted is for ships that have slow turn rates, and low maneuverability.

5. Every man for himself. You can use the subsystems and take out his drives first. They are very easy to hit. It's being a strategist combat. Not just going in all pew-pew and hope for the best

6. Read the Galnet newsfeed. If you don't want to, then that's your problem. The game has a very rich story going on right now, very political. Remember, in ED you are the the "One Hero to Save the Galaxy" that other MMO's put into your head. In ED, you are a nobody, trying to survive in the galaxy. If you want to make economical changes, then you need to co-operate with other players, and work with them to shift the balance of power in a system.

7. Guilds are not coming into the game. It does not fit into this type of game. Though there will be Wings coming out in early March, which is a co-operative experience, allowing you to run missions/ bounties with your friends and share the rewards.


First and foremost. This game is a space simulator. Not a fantasy RPG. Once you get your head around that, your aggressiveness should subside.

And speaking about your aggressiveness, a tad unneeded don't you think? Constructive criticism is great, as it provides a discussion point, comparing design decisions to other bad things, and generally not being nice is just plain immature.

We all here like to hear constructive feedback so we can all discuss what changes are best for the game. But a lot of your points can already be explained by in game design, and how to encounter specific scenarios.

This is not a theme park MMO. You are not a god in this game.

You are a nobody, trying to survive. You make a name for yourself. The game will not do that for you like in other typical mmorpgs.

1. Really? Then please explain how when I am playing SOLO and the ship I am fighting dies, I don't get credit for the kill. As happened twice tonight. And even if you describe were the case, it is a serious design flaw. I am a human being trying to line up shots, and if I go 10 seconds without hitting the mob, all my chewing it down is forgotten??? Name another MMO that does that. (Hint: You can't.)

2. Good.

3. Solo play. Federation Security force one-shot kills me by ramming into me when we are not in combat. This is NOT enhancing my game experience. Random deaths do not for good games make.


4. LOL!!!! You are telling me that when I have gone through the effort to lock a target, and tell my lasers to fire on said locked target, it is doing me a favor by NOT firing on the chance I didn't really mean it. OK, let's look at the logic behind that. I am playing WoW. I have the mob targeted, and I go to fire my spell. But it won't fire because the mob hasn't attacked me yet. Yeah, that would really enhance my game play.

5. Tried that for the last two days in a row with my guimballed beam lasers. End result: No drives disabled. In fact, I had one fight where the drives--targeted--remained at higher health than the ship overall! But, the point was moot as an AI ship got the kill on that one.

6. The Galnet newsfeed is simultaneously boring and irrelevant. So the king/emperor/prince is currently sick. Wow!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That changes everything .... not one iota.

7. Yeah. FAR too complex to have on launch.

As for my understanding of this game...I understand it pretty well. It is dull. I played the original Elite for hundreds of hours back in 1986 on my C128, and it rocked. But this game suffers from trying to

As for my "progressiveness", let me explain something. I am a "customer". I have paid hard currency for the right to be a customer, and vent my frustrations in far, far less pleasant tones than I used here. If you don't like it, well, that is your problem. As for me not being constructive, you are wrong. Unconstructive criticism is "This game sucks." Constructive criticism is "This game sucks because of the following 7 BAD design problems."

You have confused the word "constructive" with "said in a friendly tone", and the two are not the same.

There are very few games I will purchase anymore without trying first. Games are too iffy. With Elite, I took a chance, and got burned. No big deal, it is my own fault for not following my own rules. Maybe it will turn out to be a popular little niche title. Maybe in 17 patches and expansions it will be something I will want to try again.

You, go enjoy the game. It sounds like it is everything you ever wanted in fun.

But one last comment--when a game lets you die an infinite number of times and gives you all new gear and ships each and every time, please do not say, "You are a nobody, trying to survive." I have never seen a game that was more forgiving about death.

 

[Zylark]

1: Ever tried War Thunder? Besides, got fixed - if you even scratch the paint of a wanted target, and allied NPCs do the legwork, you get the kill.

2: Not a flaw in the game, but between chair and keyboard. Learn to hone your situational awareness and fire discipline. I've not even grazed a friendly NPC for weeks now. Learn to use the Radar. You know, that oval thing in the lower center of your screen. I almost spend more time looking at that than out the window when in combat.

3: See above. You need to work on your situational awareness. Not rammed or been rammed by friendlies ever, not even in very busy conflict-zones.

4: This is a safety feature. If you got problems as per your point 2, I doubt you really want turret weapons shooting at something you can't spot first...

5: Aim for Power Generator sub-system. Only easy targets that take seconds to eliminate do one not bother selecting a specific sub-system to shoot at. Learn it, use it.

6: There is no hand-holding in this game. No mandatory construed missions. Want a story, make it up yourself. The GalNet newsfeed provides ample opportunities.

7: One can organize clans outside of the game, just as have been done since Quake first came out. Multiplayer interaction is lacking at the moment, I will grant that (your only legitimate point), but are also highest on the devs current agenda to fix. You can not have failed to noticed this, have you?

 

[EddyRockSteady]

Agree with all the points and while I can live with the majority for the time being, #4 really irks me as well. Turret behaviour is absolutely abysmal.

What should happen is the following:

Lock target. Turret will then only track and engage the locked target automatically upon pulling the trigger/primary fire button. Turret will cease auto-fire upon subsequent trigger/primary fire pull. Once locked target destroyed turret goes dormant.

Turret behaviour is absolutely critical to gameplay - hopefully this gets seen to asap.

 

[amigacooke]

What's a flam?

 

[kaivalagi]

What's a flam?

Apparently a village in Flåmsdalen, Norway

 

[kilvenny]

Maybe I am a combat pilot in real life - combat is tactical, needs to be undertaken with a clear head and there is a reason combat pilots have good reflexes. I watch the targeted ships percentage and when it gets down to a few percent I make sure I am continuously firing. I think I hit a ship in the way once - about five months ago - lesson learned. First rule of combat, do not down your own side/friendly craft. Ramming by any craft is a problem, fly and understand where everyone is. The only times I get hit now is when I make a mistake.

The ability to FSD out is something that I have myself as a player, so should I be surprised if someone else doesn't stay around to be a cheap kill. You need better weapons so you can drop them through the last 20 percent of their life quickly.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

I have never seen a game that was more forgiving about death.

I guess you haven't played many games then.

 

[shrinkshooter]

1. Last hit gets the kill.

2. Security forces fly in front of my lasers, get hit,

3. Security forces ram into you--you are dead.

4. Turret weapon won't fire unless you have already been fired upon, or you have locked them into fixed forward fire.

5. Mob is almost dead--Frame Shift Detected. Goodbye kill and ten minutes of fighting. Wow, what great fun--the AI has determined it is gong to lose, so it runs away. I need the smallest font in the universe to type "whee" to scale on how much fun that is.

6. No storyline of any kind. None. What I do does not affect the outcome of anything, because tomorrow in the Elite Dangerous is going to be the same as yesterday.

7. The game is HOSTILE towards players interacting.

1. Yes, people have issues with this. Suggest an alternative. Partial bounties might be problematic to implement. And they HAVE altered behavior of NPCs to stop shooting at your targets when they're near death.

2. I know it's annoying, but it happens quite rarely, and I'm a bounty hunter. Plenty of people have issues with this as well, so rest assured FD are aware of it, but again this is something difficult to "fix" because it's not easy to implement something that can differentiate intent. The first few shots being free allows a great advantage to attacking ships, so you can't use that solution. Suggest some alternative.

3. Never had this problem. I got rammed a couple times back in beta when flight paths were bad, but not since.

4. long rant removed because i haven't used turrets. that said, STOP USING TURRETS. You don't need or want them unless you're in a Conda or a T9.

5. It's 'realistic.' You expect ships to just sit there and let you wreck them? A. Take out their drives if it's such a big deal, or target their FSD instead. B. Get more firepower, your stupid turrets are weak as all hell which is why it takes you four days to kill anything. And C. Your complaint is another case of wishing there WAS a bad design: ships that won't ever run once they've engaged in a fight with you. You're not even trying to look at this objectively. gimballed multicannons are usually best for destroying drives, and anything else, really.

6. They haven't gotten to that part yet. The "of any kind" bit is false, by the way. There's just no story you can really interact with in a major way. Not there yet.

7. No, it isn't "hostile." That's called being hyperbolic. This is also something many have been calling for a long time coming, and it's at the top of FD's to-do list for the year, along with Wings allowing you to fly with friends. It's not a "design flaw," it just hasn't been fully implemented yet.

I know some people think this game is great, but for me, my homework is actually more fun to do.

Okay...so go do your homework six hours every day for two weeks straight instead of mentioning issues mentioned thousands of times months ago OR complaining about things whose opposites would be design flaws while simultaneously offering no suggestions.

I don't have an issue with people having problems with the game, I have issues with people's unreasonable derision and totally nonconstructive complaints.