CQC Seriously Bad Game Design

[Katazz]

Ok, so I'm back playing ED after having set it aside for a while. I saw the CQC thing, and thought it looked like something awesome. Wrong. This has the most basic of game design flaws- that the more experienced players are not only at an advantage for having familiarity with it, but they are also given a power advantage in gear. By putting newbies in ships that are nowhere near as powerful as someone who is say level 20, you make it a cakewalk for the upper level players to just pummel newcomers.

To give an analogy, this would be like starting a FPS game, and the first time you play, you are only allowed to use your fists as weapons. After you kill a couple dozen people, you get to upgrade to a stick. Later, you're given a bat, then later a handgun, and so on up to level 20, where you're carrying around a big railgun and you've got double-strength armor. Just how the hell would a new guy get going? Everyone should fly the same ship, same gear.

I've managed to get into two games so far, after waiting an insanely long time. The first was myself (1), a couple in the 3-5 range, and one guy who was level 25. I did manage to kill a few of the lower-end guys, but if the top level guy showed up, it was game over time. The next game (just now) was myself (still 1), another 1, a 5, and I kid you not- a 49. Game result- 800 points for the level 49 player, 0 points for all others. I caught the high level player a time or two, he'd just stop his ship, flip over, put it in reverse, and chew me up in about 2 seconds.

This is very, very, bad design. It's clear why it takes so long to get a game going- it's because everyone tried it, and realized it was horrible, and ran away screaming.

 

[Aussiedroid]

Yep its that COD syndrome. Same type of thing you can see recently in Battlefront or other current gen FPS. Apparently people like this sort of progression/perk system but all it does it create an unequal playing field rewarding those who have put in the time, not by the skill they have. I do think skill does play a bigger part in CQC than just getting your unlocks when compared to many FPS, but still something I dislike in the design. Saying that, in my experience you can win against these higher players though with skill (I have beaten players 20 levels above me before), and likewise I have been beaten by lower players (I'm 22 - in the middle).

 

[Crimson Kaim]

The reason why experienced pwn newbies is that the game (CQC) is way too easy. Gimballed weapons in a game that is meant to be competetive is bad, especially when these weapons have a 100% tracking accuracy. The biggest arvantage of having a tiny ship (small hitbax and high agility) is negated by the gimballed weapons, which makes it incredibly easy to hit everything without a chaff launcher. This effect is increased for laser weapons due to them being hitscan (no projectile, instant dmg).
However, I couldn't feel the start to be hard. Sure, one has to get used to the new game mechanics (power ups, new scanners, handling of the ships, etc.) but after like 10 games I got used to the mechanics.
Now I am at lv 37 and without the intentio to show the e-peen, a ridiculous KDR of 6.1 and a W/L ratio of 3.1 shows that this mode is by far too easy and/or that the skill gap is huge. There are examples with better stats than me.

The first two things to get this mode out of its newbie-stomping situation is to get rid of the 100% tracking gimballed mechanic and offer all weapons fixed only (or atleast the gimballed inaccuracy has to be added like in the main game) and to get gid of all lasers is neccessary because hitscan for small ships equals non-competetiveness but s matter of a couple of seconds until a ship dies. Also with stealth mode, hitscan weapons are fairly easy to hit.

That said, show the rooms of ongoing games with stats such as game type, time left, players, etc.
This allows for wuicker matchfindings and since the player balance of the MM is useless anyways, this wouldn't neccessarily barm the alreaey screwed matches (25:0 mazches are common (TDM)).

Conclusion: CQC too easy, not competetive. Increase skill level to stop newbie pwning.

 

[sgurr]

I can promise you that no-one had a gun to your stick., as someone who's got most of the upgrades you're wrong about them. They are effectively sidegrades, all have disadvantages or require a different play style.

Experience, tactics and map knowledge play a much bigger part.

snip..
The next game (just now) was myself (still 1), another 1, a 5, and I kid you not- a 49. Game result- 800 points for the level 49 player, 0 points for all others. I caught the high level player a time or two, he'd just stop his ship, flip over, put it in reverse, and chew me up in about 2 seconds.
..snip

For example:
- your 49'er will have had 4 pips in systems which massively increases shield resistance
- they may have had a shield boost power up (yellow shields rather than blue?)
- they will probably have deployed chaff and/or a heat sink to throw off your gimbals while turning to face you
- they may have a weapon power up to do you more damage
- you possibly didn't have 4 pips in your systems so your shield dropped more quickly
- and finally they're probably just a better pilot

Don't write it off Katazz, I have some time just now so if you're still around pm me and I'll try to give you some tips, (I'm a competent pilot, not got Kaim's stats)

Failing that watch this:
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=elite+dangerous+cqc+yodafone

 

[tgarpestad]

I just hit lvl 50 and reset my lvl to 1. I can assure you that once you know what you're doing, you can beat a lvl 50 as a lvl 1.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

I must admit i think it is great, and have no issue with it.

yes, op has a point some of the unlocks are better than what you start with imo, but it is only slight and i enjoy unlocking stuff.

maybe i am just not a competative gamer, but so long as i get a few kills i do not mind if i do not win often.

ironically ED in CQC is pretty much the ONLY online game i do not suck at, with a KD ratio of around 4 or 5:1 (and i am only level 19 i think). but every other online game i play like say BF4, I get hammered every time....... but it does not stop me playing.

make all the unlocks sidegrades with NO improvement at all and that removes the encouragement to unlock stuff imo.

 

[Beavis Tingleball]

CQC is all about skill..im left handed, playing on a hotas...I literally learned how to fly right handed when this game came out and as you can guess I was not too good. having the biggest guns in the game could not save me from the pilots who knew how to stay behind me...but with enough practice things have changed .

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

I must admit i think it is great, and have no issue with it.

yes, op has a point some of the unlocks are better than what you start with imo, but it is only slight and i enjoy unlocking stuff.

maybe i am just not a competative gamer, but so long as i get a few kills i do not mind if i do not win often.

ironically ED in CQC is pretty much the ONLY online game i do not suck at, with a KD ratio of around 4 or 5:1 (and i am only level 19 i think). but every other online game i play like say BF4, I get hammered every time....... but it does not stop me playing.

make all the unlocks sidegrades with NO improvement at all and that removes the encouragement to unlock stuff imo.

I still fly the condor with the default loadout lol.

 

[h347h]

Ok, so I'm back playing ED after having set it aside for a while. I saw the CQC thing, and thought it looked like something awesome. Wrong. This has the most basic of game design flaws- that the more experienced players are not only at an advantage for having familiarity with it, but they are also given a power advantage in gear. By putting newbies in ships that are nowhere near as powerful as someone who is say level 20, you make it a cakewalk for the upper level players to just pummel newcomers.

To give an analogy, this would be like starting a FPS game, and the first time you play, you are only allowed to use your fists as weapons. After you kill a couple dozen people, you get to upgrade to a stick. Later, you're given a bat, then later a handgun, and so on up to level 20, where you're carrying around a big railgun and you've got double-strength armor. Just how the hell would a new guy get going? Everyone should fly the same ship, same gear.

I've managed to get into two games so far, after waiting an insanely long time. The first was myself (1), a couple in the 3-5 range, and one guy who was level 25. I did manage to kill a few of the lower-end guys, but if the top level guy showed up, it was game over time. The next game (just now) was myself (still 1), another 1, a 5, and I kid you not- a 49. Game result- 800 points for the level 49 player, 0 points for all others. I caught the high level player a time or two, he'd just stop his ship, flip over, put it in reverse, and chew me up in about 2 seconds.

This is very, very, bad design. It's clear why it takes so long to get a game going- it's because everyone tried it, and realized it was horrible, and ran away screaming.

The basic ship is the probably the best load out. I only use it and regularly kill people in other ships or using side graded options. There is however vast skill gap. If you suck you are going to die a lot. From your analogy it is clear to see that you probably don't even know how to proper manage pips nor most likely be able to aim against a cold running Eagle or a stealth power up. Working on that first then get back to us.

The reasons that it isn't as successful right now are many. First its a niche game within a niche game. Second it competes with the normal Elite. Of which players are burning the midnight oil trying to get all the ranks and required credits for the new faction ships in coming. Then lastly you have the 'video game season' which entails the release of several AAA games released around this time as well as the current generation consoles being sold for much cheaper. Even adult web sites are seeing loss in traffic.

 

[DjordjeDtW]

My good friend, can you do better?

 

[Nebohtes]

I think the half-way mark is actually around Rank 40 or so; the folks stomping 8-0 are, more or less, grinding. It's a bummer to be fodder for the grind house, but that's just part of CQC, for the time being.

It really is a skill game, IMO, because so much of it is about manipulating the mechanics; learning when to put four pips to shields, engines or weapons is crucial. I use kinetics, only, so I totally suck at power management and am also "nerfed" a bit against newer players (not using reversed resistance shielding), but I do understand how it works, even though I haven't practiced it much. I also both suck at and don't enjoy "big picture" framing, or flying outside the skirmish and grabbing the low hanging fruit.

1.) Learn the maps; use the left window to target Shield and Stealth powerups on the fly. The Weapon Enhance is the key to 8-0 and a very short match: learn where they are on every map (even if someone has already grabbed the powerup, you can still target them and learn where they are on the map -- DO THIS).

2.) Practice surviving: when you start getting hit, put four pips in shields and two pips in engines -- break your attacker's Line of Sight (LOS). Remember that thing that you flew past on the left? It's still there, get it between you and your attacker. As soon as you break LOS put four pips in engines; stay close to the structure. Imagine the easiest route to continue, and take a different one, or get your speed into the blue and flip around as soon as LOS is broken, and boost directly towards your attacker, or where you just came from. If nothing else, you just wasted 20 seconds of their time, and bought twenty seconds of fighting and learning for your fellow newer pilots.

3.) Team Death Match is a gamble; your are on the winning team or your food for the winning team, IMO. I recommend Death Match. If you have a match with a pilot running up 8-0, don't shoot at anyone else: two people shooting at each other are "low hanging fruit." If you've learned to survive (evade), you're learning to engage: look for the pilot running up 8-0 and prioritize that pilot as a target. You can't count on everyone to do this, but if all the players in a match had prejudice against the winner of the last match, we'd see a lot more Good Games.

4.) Have fun. If you can't win a match, or get a lot of kills, make small victories count: "I got shot in the back but made the chase last for a minute!" "I took the Weapon Enhance three times in a row!" (the respawn on it is exactly the same as the duration; if you take it, it will respawn exactly when it wears off -- you should be flying through the ring a half a second after it wears off if you were carrying it). I've never played a game that gave me enjoyment, but I've gotten good at finding it over the last thirty years.

5.) Realize that these five points were from a mediocre pilot that doesn't win matches, pretty much sucks at getting kills, and has thoroughly enjoyed 99% of his time getting absolutely owned by most pilots; you'd be amazed how often I fly entire matches without making a single kill, and I still get a decent amount of experience at the end of the match.

Last word: I don't think most of the pilots running 8-0 matches are stroking their e-peen; I've done it, too, when I think, "only 100 matches to go until the next rank... or 30 wins..."

 

[shadragon]

You don't get better fighting people worse than you.

 

[Katazz]

Ah, yes- the Internet. It's not surprise that while there are a few folks here that are genuinely trying to be helpful (thanks for that), most are going to fall back to the stock answer to everything - "You must just suck". For the record, I do quite well managing the 'pips' on shields, engine, and weapons. No, I don't know the maps that well, but knowing the map isn't helpful when I can come in behind a high level player with my weapons at 4, and all he has to do is put it in reverse, flip over, and shoot me. I quickly move my pips to 4 on shields, and keep firing, but it's over- there's no dealing with that, because he's got more guns and more shields.

This is an old design flaw, and one that sucessful games like Halo, Quake, TF2, and others have realized is bad- you don't add disadvantage to the newbies and advantage to the experienced. If you do, you end up with frustrated newbies who quit, and bored veterans who quit.

 

[dutchy2000]

Ah, yes- the Internet. It's not surprise that while there are a few folks here that are genuinely trying to be helpful (thanks for that), most are going to fall back to the stock answer to everything - "You must just suck". For the record, I do quite well managing the 'pips' on shields, engine, and weapons. No, I don't know the maps that well, but knowing the map isn't helpful when I can come in behind a high level player with my weapons at 4, and all he has to do is put it in reverse, flip over, and shoot me. I quickly move my pips to 4 on shields, and keep firing, but it's over- there's no dealing with that, because he's got more guns and more shields.

This is an old design flaw, and one that sucessful games like Halo, Quake, TF2, and others have realized is bad- you don't add disadvantage to the newbies and advantage to the experienced. If you do, you end up with frustrated newbies who quit, and bored veterans who quit.

yes- the Internet, where someone that has playing 3 matches of a game thinks they are an expert and can judge the game because of it. And of course since I am good against bots in COD, I must be good against other people in this game as well. Sorry but you suck, I sucked too at that point in time but I didn't give up because I thought other people had the advantage due to some perceived weapons difference. As other people have stated the 'upgrades' are really side grades not much else. They give you and advantage at one thing but disadvantage in another. Until you figure this out you will still suck. Soon I will prestige again and be reset to lvl 1. It will make little to no difference in the outcomes of my matches.

TL;DR learn how to play the game and you will figure out the levels mean nothing. If you want I can help you figure it out. Or you can just complain about how unfair this is and you will get ridiculed since there is barely a difference.

 

[Alexander the Grape]

Ok, so I'm back playing ED after having set it aside for a while. I saw the CQC thing, and thought it looked like something awesome. Wrong. This has the most basic of game design flaws- that the more experienced players are not only at an advantage for having familiarity with it, but they are also given a power advantage in gear. By putting newbies in ships that are nowhere near as powerful as someone who is say level 20, you make it a cakewalk for the upper level players to just pummel newcomers.

To give an analogy, this would be like starting a FPS game, and the first time you play, you are only allowed to use your fists as weapons. After you kill a couple dozen people, you get to upgrade to a stick. Later, you're given a bat, then later a handgun, and so on up to level 20, where you're carrying around a big railgun and you've got double-strength armor. Just how the hell would a new guy get going? Everyone should fly the same ship, same gear.

I've managed to get into two games so far, after waiting an insanely long time. The first was myself (1), a couple in the 3-5 range, and one guy who was level 25. I did manage to kill a few of the lower-end guys, but if the top level guy showed up, it was game over time. The next game (just now) was myself (still 1), another 1, a 5, and I kid you not- a 49. Game result- 800 points for the level 49 player, 0 points for all others. I caught the high level player a time or two, he'd just stop his ship, flip over, put it in reverse, and chew me up in about 2 seconds.

This is very, very, bad design. It's clear why it takes so long to get a game going- it's because everyone tried it, and realized it was horrible, and ran away screaming.

All upgrades in CQC are in fact, sidegrades. A stock Condor is better than an "upgraded" one in many ways. I hate to say it but this really is a case of the bad workman blaming his tools.

If you look at the high level players, most use a Condor that is very similar to the stock one

 

[Sammey]

I have an idea..
Put an "I WIN" button in every ship!!
Then even new players can win with just a few days experience. Ya Baby!!!

 

[Shaamaan]

Do what I do, start a match, immediately go into silent running and turn off nearly all systems - you become invisible and everyone ignores you don't move a muscle - afterward, you are still given points every time.

Bonus points if you can put yourself in a position to observe the action while remaining invisible even with the naked eye.

 

[Deleted member 38366]

Although I haven't played CQC since Beta testing - it all boils down to this : there is zero risk.

Nothing to lose but gain exprience and rank up yourself. It's a one-way road.
And as there's no consequences, you can take your best shot at it as often as you want... doesn't matter if you lose 1000 Ships.

Very soon you'll see that you unlock Equipment and Ships useful to you and gain a standing.

Just remember : it's just a fun acrade shooter, nothing more. Blast away if you like and don't bother how often your Ship blows up. Seriously, doesn't matter at all

PS.
I am aware the pairing is and will always be an issue. Not many Players around, so you'll have to take what you can get. Goes both ways - sometimes you'll be king of the hill, at other times you'll have trouble surviving.
Just have fun and don't mistake CQC for anything remotely competitive.
Truth to be told... there are no winners or losers in CQC. Only winners - even if it means only building experience with its unique mechanics.
You can only rank up, no matter what you do. It's a classic Console shooter that knows no punishment for bad performance or back luck.

 

[Nebohtes]

Exactly this, OP; the upgrade that you're missing is Weapon Enhance. Fortunately, you can get these at any level. There's one on every map.

 

[sgurr]

<snip> ... because he's got more guns and more shields. <snip>

As several people have pointed out the 'upgrades' don't really do this, the only way this happens is if they've picked up in map power-ups that you can use too!

The power-ups are really important, learn how to target and find them, then learn where they are so you just know.

(I could argue that weapon and shield power-ups could have their effective time reduced, weapon in particular as it can be spawn camped to huge advantage)

 

[Im_Lost]

Yep its that COD syndrome. Same type of thing you can see recently in Battlefront or other current gen FPS. Apparently people like this sort of progression/perk system but all it does it create an unequal playing field rewarding those who have put in the time, not by the skill they have. I do think skill does play a bigger part in CQC than just getting your unlocks when compared to many FPS, but still something I dislike in the design. Saying that, in my experience you can win against these higher players though with skill (I have beaten players 20 levels above me before), and likewise I have been beaten by lower players (I'm 22 - in the middle).

This. I hate the whole "unlocks" system in FPS games. It ruins them.

I think they are a way to keep players playing, because the rest of the game is lackluster and has no replay value. This is very true of COD and the new Battlefront. In the old days FPS were squarely for PC gamers, because FPSs on consoles sucked (and still do). But now PC gamers have console FPSs forced on them, with their tiny maps, small team sizes, arcade style gameplay with no tactics, etc