Shield cell banks vs Guardian shield reinforcement

[SENA-]

So, guys, I never liked very much the cell banks, in PvE, since they offer little and become dead weight very fast... After I unlocked the lvl. III engineering of them, I give them one more try.
The result was the same - useless dead weight...
I got one of those missions, stacked for the same cargo, with 4-5 "receivers" when you put in a big ship, like the Cutter, in a single load, the cargo for all 4-5 missions.
And right after you leave with the big cargo, you get that message, from several mission givers, "enemy ships are coming for you".

In my case, was a nice "stack" of pirates, 3 x 4 coming after my juicy cargo. Same system, Delkar, where are 2 big stations, with famine, civil war and tons of elite pirates. So, great place for adrenaline junkies, right. Well, my experience was bad - after first wave ( I was willing to submit the interdiction and fight the pirates) I realized the game switched to the "hard mode" for me, since each interdiction from a single pirate ALWAYS bring a second or even thirs pirate to drop at the fighting place almost immediately ( after only some 10-15 sec since the fight started, a second or third pirate will join ... ) ;

Well, guys, my shield cells depleted after first wave, with 3 pirates, all in Elite Condas, the kind who take at least 2-3 minutes to kill. Some of those Condas probably run 2-3 layers of cell banks because I remember one of them restoring the shields 4 times in less than a minute, really fast, in just few seconds.
Conclusion - I was forced to fight the rest of waves with a dead weight , and my shields reduced by 25% ....

So, next trip I switched back and equipped the Guardian shield reinforcement module, all follow in the same scenario, several waves of double / triple pirates at once, BUT using the reboot/repair glitch after each fight I was, overall, to maintain the shields with some good extra MJ non-stop, a thing the cell banks do not offer after the charge is depleted.

I know, in theory, cell banks increase the overall MJ, like many Tube veterans posted, BUT that is not true in PvE situations when you need to fight your way through 3-4 successive attacks each of several hardened enemies... the cell banks simply are NOT made for prolonged combat, period.
So, from my experience, cell banks, even level 3 with Boss experimental effect, are not worth for continued fight... once depleted ( and they deplete fast recharging a level 7 Prismatic...) - once they run out of juice, they are dead weight. On the other hand, the Guardian module, will work for you non-stop, giving you the same constant extra reinforcement, will never overheat, you do not need to worry to activate they are very fast to repair ( 1-2 seconds) and, if is true they will give you less on paper, at long term, the constant, non-stop flow of reinforcement, for situation when you are forced to fight many waves without getting in a station, they are a much better option, used in conjunction with the reboot/repair...

What are your toughs about, guys ? I am curious if my opinion is shared.... Thank you all in advance.

 

[Craith]

I don't like the shield cell mechanic, they feel very gamey to me, a health potion for your shields. If they'd be some kind of capacitator that stores SYS energy to apply to greatly increase the shield regeneration, they'd kind of make sense at least.

They make many combats very repetitive, you either pack a railgun to deal with them or it just prolongs a foregone conclusion. If I can beat the ship once, I'll beat it also 2x, it'll just take longer. It is ok as an asymmetric singleplayer mechanic that allows the player to feel like a hero, but making a mess of symmetrical encounters. For the same reason the energy bomb is not good for Elite Dangerous.

Having to use a specific weapon to counter a specific item limits build options, and hinders smaller ships more than larger ones (a corvette has no trouble giving up a small weapon slot for the chance the opponent has shield cells, or overpowering the regeneration with its weapons.) Yes, there are other ways to deal with shields solutions (phasing, torpedos, flechettes) but all of them are one trick ponies.

you can also keep them deactivated until needed, making only the highest power cost count

guardian shield boosters are nice, they help the smaller ships proportionally more. Generally the defenses scale to much though IMO, especially the shield defenses.

 

[Deleted member 38366]

My experience is the polar opposite.

A Cutter you say? 8A and 6A SCBs it is then.
With those SCBs, you should be able to mop any HazRES or Compromised NAV Beacon without >ever< losing Shields.
Any Opposition during a Cargo Recovery Mission can simply be ignored while your Collectors swiftly scoop up everything that's needed on 4/2/0 Pips.

If you do, there might be something wrong with your Shield Generator (size, class, Engineering state, Resistances?).
btw. speedy scooping is paramount with Opposition in your neck. Ideally, your Collectors retrieve the last Canisters before Opposition even drops in or has a chance to intervene.

Guardian Shield Packages can be quite good for Small and Medium Ships.
On large Ships (i.e. a Cutter) they merely can provide additions to extreme edge-case builds or try to compensate an undersized Shield Generator.
But if you'd like to add some 200MJ absolute Shields and have a C5 slot to spare... why not. Both (SCB) and Guardian Shield boosting can be combined, they're not exclusive.

However, as said, a normal engineered Cutter build shouldn't have any issues in PvE.

PS.
Keep in mind the Cutter isn't a dedicated Combat Ship, it's losing a ton of time trying to turn around on Ice to bring its hardpoints into action.
It's best to focus on the Mission Objective, rather than abusing a Trade Ship for Combat. Doing so holds little benefit but costs alot of time.

 

[SENA-]

I don't like the shield cell mechanic, they feel very gamey to me, a health potion for your shields. If they'd be some kind of capacitator that stores SYS energy to apply to greatly increase the shield regeneration, they'd kind of make sense at least.

They make many combats very repetitive, you either pack a railgun to deal with them or it just prolongs a foregone conclusion. If I can beat the ship once, I'll beat it also 2x, it'll just take longer. It is ok as an asymmetric singleplayer mechanic that allows the player to feel like a hero, but making a mess of symmetrical encounters. For the same reason the energy bomb is not good for Elite Dangerous.

Having to use a specific weapon to counter a specific item limits build options, and hinders smaller ships more than larger ones (a corvette has no trouble giving up a small weapon slot for the chance the opponent has shield cells, or overpowering the regeneration with its weapons.) Yes, there are other ways to deal with shields solutions (phasing, torpedos, flechettes) but all of them are one trick ponies.

you can also keep them deactivated until needed, making only the highest power cost count

guardian shield boosters are nice, they help the smaller ships proportionally more. Generally the defenses scale to much though IMO, especially the shield defenses.

Exactly my toughs, common sense tell us a cell bank should, like a shield, regenerate the charge after x amount of time, but in-game mechanics instead give us a limited number of fast discharges and after that, you carry a dead weight in that slot...

 

[SENA-]

My experience is the polar opposite.

A Cutter you say? 8A and 6A SCBs it is then.
With those SCBs, you should be able to mop any HazRES or Compromised NAV Beacon without >ever< losing Shields.
Any Opposition during a Cargo Recovery Mission can simply be ignored while your Collectors swiftly scoop up everything that's needed on 4/2/0 Pips.

If you do, there might be something wrong with your Shield Generator (size, class, Engineering state, Resistances?).
btw. speedy scooping is paramount with Opposition in your neck. Ideally, your Collectors retrieve the last Canisters before Opposition even drops in or has a chance to intervene.

Guardian Shield Packages can be quite good for Small and Medium Ships.
On large Ships (i.e. a Cutter) they merely can provide additions to extreme edge-case builds or try to compensate an undersized Shield Generator.
But if you'd like to add some 200MJ absolute Shields and have a C5 slot to spare... why not. Both (SCB) and Guardian Shield boosting can be combined, they're not exclusive.

However, as said, a normal engineered Cutter build shouldn't have any issues in PvE.

PS.
Keep in mind the Cutter isn't a dedicated Combat Ship, it's losing a ton of time trying to turn around on Ice to bring its hardpoints into action.
It's best to focus on the Mission Objective, rather than abusing a Trade Ship for Combat. Doing so holds little benefit but costs alot of time.

You ignore the fact the returning limpet collectors are the first victims when the mother-ship is under fire. If the ship is under fire from 2 or more enemies, you will scoop the void....
I use in my Vette a class 7 limpet controllers and I deploy 5 of them at once, and when I face 2-3 pirates I usually lose all limpets in question of seconds...Your 4 pips on shields will not protect the limpets...

 

[Dillon Fallon]

This is just my opinion, but the two have different purposes. SCBs are for a combat ship and need to be in your big slots to be effective (ideally bring 2 and double bank). If you're in a cargo ship, you need those slots for your racks, so SCBs would be put in smaller slots, where they are useless (unless your aim is cooking your ship for thermal conduit weaponry or removing Thargoid goo).

Guardian shield boosters are useful in both combat ships and cargo ships as even a small one can give a noticeable improvement to shielding. For example, a trade Cutter with a size 6 shield will see a noticeable improvement with 2 grade 5 guardian shield boosters, but grade 5 SCBs will likely do nothing significant, or at least noticeable when you fire a single cell.

If I was using SCBs in a Cutter I'd be using the class 8 and one class 6 slot for these. Problem is now you don't have a cargo ship any more.

 

[Vandaahl]

For PVE, I guess they are good while fighting a CZ, when you shoot the wrong ship and the whole specs ops team turns against you. Then you might have a need for some extra overhead. After the battle, when you need to reload for ammo and hand in any missions, you also reload the SCB.

If you build a laser boat for indefinite RES farming, then a SCB isn't the obvious choice. You just need a bigger shield whose recharge is on par with the beating it gets, more or less.

Guardians are nice extenders, nothing more than that as its addition will not be boosted, so what you see is what you get. If you have the room both physically and energetically, sure why not. You can't prioritize the power though. I believe you can't even switch them off after adding them.

 

[SENA-]

You ignore the fact the returning limpet collectors are the first victims when the mother-ship is under fire. If the ship is under fire from 2 or more enemies, you will scoop the void....
I use in my Vette a class 7 limpet controllers and I deploy 5 of them at once, and when I face 2-3 pirates I usually lose all limpets in a question of seconds...Your 4 pips on shields will not protect the limpets... And yes, I used in that situation the smaller prismatic on Cutter ( class 6 not 8, cuz I was running 4k cargo mission... The cutter lacks the Vette hammer, but oh boy, nothing compare to the Cutter when you decide come the time to get out and you say "sayonara boys" boosting like a boss at 550 ! So, a smaller shield is not an issue in a trader Cutter, you are still the Chief Rabbit

 

[SENA-]

This is just my opinion, but the two have different purposes. SCBs are for a combat ship and need to be in your big slots to be effective (ideally bring 2 and double bank). If you're in a cargo ship, you need those slots for your racks, so SCBs would be put in smaller slots, where they are useless (unless your aim is cooking your ship for thermal conduit weaponry or removing Thargoid goo).

Guardian shield boosters are useful in both combat ships and cargo ships as even a small one can give a noticeable improvement to shielding. For example, a trade Cutter with a size 6 shield will see a noticeable improvement with 2 grade 5 guardian shield boosters, but grade 5 SCBs will likely do nothing significant, or at least noticeable when you fire a single cell.

If I was using SCBs in a Cutter I'd be using the class 8 and one class 6 slot for these. Problem is now you don't have a cargo ship any more.

Fully agree, the Cutter can survive easy with only a class 6, sometimes I even amuse submitting to interdiction only to let the poor Vette or Conda pirate in a cloud of dust, sliding like a boss... Hell, most of the time the best they can do is just 1-2 shots before they are out of range, and a class 6 shield is not even marginally dented !
AND you keep that lovely big slot for cargo....

 

[SENA-]

For PVE, I guess they are good while fighting a CZ, when you shoot the wrong ship and the whole specs ops team turns against you. Then you might have a need for some extra overhead. After the battle, when you need to reload for ammo and hand in any missions, you also reload the SCB.

If you build a laser boat for indefinite RES farming, then a SCB isn't the obvious choice. You just need a bigger shield whose recharge is on par with the beating it gets, more or less.

Guardians are nice extenders, nothing more than that as its addition will not be boosted, so what you see is what you get. If you have the room both physically and energetically, sure why not. You can't prioritize the power though. I believe you can't even switch them off after adding them.

I used to harvest materials in CNP, loading some 80-90 limpets in my Vette with a class 7 Controller. Since I use plasma slugs on 3 rails ( 2 on medium, other in large) and 2 Beam in the huge, with only 2 MC in the smaller ones, my need for ammo is zero, I can stay there and fight several hours with a full fuel tank - and I found out the cell bank is not worth, because after you use the charges, become a dead weight for the rest of the time, and I really do not like to dock in a station JUST to charge the fraking cells !

 

[Northpin]

My CZ Vette is running 7C Bi-weaves and 2x 7B SCB.
I rarely use them, lately i never used all the charges in a 2-3h CZ session.
But they are nice to have.

I also experimented with them on a Cutter. 6C Bi-weaves and 2x 8B SCB. But not for long.
My Cutters are haulers and miners now, Combat is done by the Vette.

SCB see more use in PVP where a well-fired SCB can mean the difference between an early end and keeping on fighting

 

[Dillon Fallon]

Fully agree, the Cutter can survive easy with only a class 6, sometimes I even amuse submitting to interdiction only to let the poor Vette or Conda pirate in a cloud of dust, sliding like a boss... Hell, most of the time the best they can do is just 1-2 shots before they are out of range, and a class 6 shield is not even marginally dented !
AND you keep that lovely big slot for cargo....

Mine runs a class 6 prismatic and the whole thing is ridiculously over-engineered. Pirate Anacondas are free material piñatas at this point.

 

[Kissamies]

I prefer Guardian reinforced Bi-Weave "hybrid shields" even on large ships. My Vette does have a SCB for emergencies, but ideally I don't have to use it at all.

 

[goemon]

the ~200 mj of a guardian shieldbooster also recharge with the shields recharge rate. so in prolonged pve scenarios, you'll have them more than once available.

 

[Sylow]

Guardian Shield Packages can be quite good for Small and Medium Ships.
On large Ships (i.e. a Cutter) they merely can provide additions to extreme edge-case builds or try to compensate an undersized Shield Generator.
But if you'd like to add some 200MJ absolute Shields and have a C5 slot to spare... why not. Both (SCB) and Guardian Shield boosting can be combined, they're not exclusive.

However, as said, a normal engineered Cutter build shouldn't have any issues in PvE.

I very much agree, especially to the quoted part. Small SCBs offer limited benefit, so on small ships the Guardian Shield Packages are a reasonably good choice. On big ships, they don't really convince me.

And in either case, a Cutter should have no issues even on a just mediocre setup and moderate engineering. It might not turn well, but it can have really huge and tough shields.

I prefer Guardian reinforced Bi-Weave "hybrid shields" even on large ships. My Vette does have a SCB for emergencies, but ideally I don't have to use it at all.

Same here. I have several prismatics of any size stored away. But on all my combat oriented ships i at some time returned to Bi-Weaves. Mind, you it in the end depends on what you are doing. When soloing wing assassiantion missions, the killing basically is on a timer. I don't spend enough time there to make the Bi-Weave worth it, so running a prismatic shield would actually be the better option. (I merely usually am too lazy to switch it. )

But in any situation where you spend prolonged periods of time in hostile environment (e.g. RES, CZ) the Bi-Weaves turn out to be much better.

 

[Stealthie]

Used to run 2x 7A SCBs in my Corvettes but it always seemed a bit shonky, with having to disable one before powering-up the other one and (ideally) needing to pop a HS when using the SCB.
In use, it was always the need to refill my SCBs that forced me to leave a CZ/RES/whatever.

These days, I just fit a bunch of GSBs instead and, while I'm not sure the ship has as many MJ of shield, altogether, the overall system is more robust so I can just concentrate on making Anacondas explode.

To be fair, I used to have more stuff in my 'vettes; cargo racks, an SRV, scanners and whatnot.
The main change was when I decided I was going to build ships for specific roles.
On a combat ship everything should be related to combat.
I decided that if I wanted to take a cargo mission, or hoon around on a planet's surface, I'd take the mission and then transfer a more suitable ship to do it in.
Also, I do still have proper multirole Kraits and Anacondas so if I want to do "a bit of everything" I'll fly those ships instead.

For me, ED is about building and flying spaceships so an excuse to build more spaceships and fly more spaceships is a good thing.

Also, FWIW, GSBs are a good way to augment a small shield rather than fitting a bigger shield - especially in small ships.
If you're flying a Corvette that already has 3000MW of shield, sacrificing a C5 slot just to add another 215MJ of shield is something you might need to think carefully about.
If, OTOH, you're flying an iEagle with 150MJ of shield, you might find there's a significant benefit (in terms of freeing up larger slots, saving weight and shield strength) to fitting a smaller, lighter, shield and then augmenting it with a small GSB that adds 105MJ of shield - if you have a free slot to put it in.

Honestly, I have no real idea what impact GSBs have on stuff like recharge rate and resistances so I don't know how they compare with SCBs in those terms.
The main thing is that they're "plug & play", with no faffing around - or the possibility that you might switch-on an SCB before switching-off a used one and, thus, overloading your ship and losing your shield completely.

 

[SENA-]

My CZ Vette is running 7C Bi-weaves and 2x 7B SCB.
I rarely use them, lately i never used all the charges in a 2-3h CZ session.
But they are nice to have.

I also experimented with them on a Cutter. 6C Bi-weaves and 2x 8B SCB. But not for long.
My Cutters are haulers and miners now, Combat is done by the Vette.

SCB see more use in PVP where a well-fired SCB can mean the difference between an early end and keeping on fighting

In that configuration, your Vette in CZ will not scoop many materials, if any, from your victims... I run a 7A Prismatic on mine,, with 3 Guardian SB.s, and no SCB at all - like that I can use a class 7 Limpet Controller with 70-80 limpets and harvest hundreds of materials in just an hour. If I loose shields, I will laugh at your 7C Bi-Wave when I hide for 10 sec in a safe place and make a reboot, getting half shields (some 2600-2700 MJ !) a lot faster than in a Bi-Wave.

 

[Vandaahl]

I used to harvest materials in CNP, loading some 80-90 limpets in my Vette with a class 7 Controller. Since I use plasma slugs on 3 rails ( 2 on medium, other in large) and 2 Beam in the huge, with only 2 MC in the smaller ones, my need for ammo is zero, I can stay there and fight several hours with a full fuel tank - and I found out the cell bank is not worth, because after you use the charges, become a dead weight for the rest of the time, and I really do not like to dock in a station JUST to charge the fraking cells !

Yes, like said you are trying to farm indefinitely and SCB's aren't the obvious choice for that. However, Guardian stuff need unlocking, and doing that is by some described as.. "a grind", so there is that is well.

There is another thing you can use to help getting the heat off of you, the SLF. Takes up as much space as other stuff, and you need to train a pilot that is gonna cost you munny, so yeah. But, order the SLF to engage your target (and let it hit first before you start shooting, you start shooting the moment it turns hostile to you), and watch a Conda lose the world around him by trying to snipe it out until his shield and 50% of its hull are gone, before it notices there is something much more powerfull gnawing on him

All things have their usefulness as long as you can put them to good use. I hate to use a screw driver when I need a hammer

 

[Sylow]

Used to run 2x 7A SCBs in my Corvettes but it always seemed a bit shonky, with having to disable one before powering-up the other one and (ideally) needing to pop a HS when using the SCB.

In use, it was always the need to refill my SCBs that forced me to leave a CZ/RES/whatever.

That's why my ships generally only use one SCB, even in a combat setup. It makes things much easier. Mind you, in my eyes the SCB is the emergency "i messed up, now i need to use this" button. It's rare that i use it, quite often i leave a CZ/HazRES due to my weapons running out of ammo, while my SCB still has several or even all charges left.

I know that other people use the SCB more offensively, but having it as the emergency button and knowing that pressing it means i made a mistake before turned out quite well for me.

Honestly, I have no real idea what impact GSBs have on stuff like recharge rate and resistances so I don't know how they compare with SCBs in those terms.

No impact on resists. No impact on recharge rate. But recharge times get longer, both in broken and unbroken state. Due to the higher total capacity of the shield, rebuilding the shield at the same recharge rate of course takes a bit longer. The same is true in broken shield status, they reform when it reaches 50% of the maximum capacity. I guess you can reduce the time in broken state by switching of the GSBs. (I only guess that, i never actually tried. ) But that of course means that your shields reform at 50% of the non-boosted status. If you then switch the GSBs on again, you'll be below the mentioned 50%. Considering that the shields recharge in broken state is significally higher than when shields are up, the procedure of shutting down GSBs or SBs is not always optional but really depends on the situation you are in.

 

[SENA-]

That's why my ships generally only use one SCB, even in a combat setup. It makes things much easier. Mind you, in my eyes the SCB is the emergency "i messed up, now i need to use this" button. It's rare that i use it, quite often i leave a CZ/HazRES due to my weapons running out of ammo, while my SCB still has several or even all charges left.

I know that other people use the SCB more offensively, but having it as the emergency button and knowing that pressing it means i made a mistake before turned out quite well for me.



No impact on resists. No impact on recharge rate. But recharge times get longer, both in broken and unbroken state. Due to the higher total capacity of the shield, rebuilding the shield at the same recharge rate of course takes a bit longer. The same is true in broken shield status, they reform when it reaches 50% of the maximum capacity. I guess you can reduce the time in broken state by switching of the GSBs. (I only guess that, i never actually tried. ) But that of course means that your shields reform at 50% of the non-boosted status. If you then switch the GSBs on again, you'll be below the mentioned 50%. Considering that the shields recharge in broken state is significally higher than when shields are up, the procedure of shutting down GSBs or SBs is not always optional but really depends on the situation you are in.

You can add they get usually only minor damages ( I run in situations when my hull was at 5% (!!!) and most of other modules were totally destroyed or badly damaged, but the GSB still were laughing at 95% ! And funny enough, they repair faster than any other module, in just a second or two, if you use a AFMS module, like I do, in big combat ships. An AFMS class 5 or bigger in a Vette and especially in a Cutter mean the repair bill drops from 5-700k (if things got ugly) to only 15-25k ... a big difference. Also, out there, is also great to bring back your modules at 100%, after a hard fight, without being forced to leave and dock... and making the trip in a vulnerable position...