Ship and equipment balancing: CQC vs Main Game

[Mephane]

For CQC we reworked the whole sensor system so that breaking line of sight breaks target lock. You can duck behind an asteroid, stop and reverse out and you’ll have lost the person chasing you. You can go into a tunnel and the second there’s something between you and your enemy, they won't be able to see you and they’ll lose their lock. You have to be clever and use that to your advantage.

The four ship power-ups are a big one. We have a stealth mode, a speed boost, a damage boost and a shield boost. We think those make for really exciting moments in the battle – a surprise chance to turn the tide.

Suddenly someone gets a power-up and everyone has to reassess their priorities. It shuffles the deck mid-game. If you've lost your shields you could go through the power-up ring and get your shields back instantly.

And we have a ranking system. We track your progress and award XP, and you’ll unlock new weapons and modules as you play. We have leaderboards where you can compare amount of kills and your stats. It’s a very pure way to fight in the Elite: Dangerous galaxy for players who care about their Kill/Death ratio!

So you've got your Guns, Modules and Abilities. Modules might add to your shield resistances or boost duration, but your Abilities might dictate what countermeasures you have. Each ship will have its own set of Abilities. The Sidewinder will have Abilities that allow it to take more damage, the Federal Fighter will be able to lose people more quickly and chaff that confuses gimballed weapons.

Well we've been playing with it internally for a while, but the F63 Condor Federal Fighter is a brand new ship for players, so we're starting from scratch there. In CQC you can fly an Eagle or Sidewinder – the same huge ships you’ll find in the open galaxy with some modifications – or the new Federal Fighter, which doesn't even have room for cargo or a Frame Shift Drive. It’s much smaller and lighter, very fast and more manoeuvrable, but not as strong as the Eagle or Sidewinder. The Sidewinder feels like a small ship in open galaxy, but in CQC it’s like our tank class!

(Source)

What I take away from this interview is, basically, is that the ships and equipment within CQC are separated from the main game. Their stats as well as the means to acquire them are different, and are balanced with different goals and constraints in mind (e.g. Sidewinder = tank and the the existence of power-ups).

Let me first say that I applaud this approach. It has been a disaster in pretty much every MMO that trieds to balance a competitive PvP mode with the rest of the open game and PvE, a constant back and forth between nerfs and buffs that never really work on both sides equally. Balancing one game mode is already difficult enough, balancing these two modes with each other next to impossible. It's become a mantra in MMO forums when a game tries the impossible: just completely sever all ties (beyond cosmetics, i.e. items and abilities can and should of course have the same names, 3D models, visual FX etc.) between the modes and balance them individually, never affecting the other. Rarely does an MMO actually follow this advice, once the path is set it usually never changes, sadly.

So the interview from which I quoted above makes me very, very happy. You understood the lesson of more than a decade of PvP vs PvE balancing impossibities, and follow through with a clean separation right from the start. Thank you.

But. Because there is always a but. I still hope that balancing changes (read: buffs) for the small ships in the main game (anything priced below the Cobra) are on the table, and ships like the Sidewinder, Hauler, Adder, Eagle and Viper can maintain a role* as a player ship in the big picture that goes beyond "low level gear" that is replaced ASAP with something that is better in every regard.

*As usual with this topic, I do not consider "stepping stone to more expensive stuff" a viable role at all in a game that is very specifically not about gaining levels and higher gear with ever escalating statistics. And I do not accept "throwaway that is cheap to rebuy" as a viable role, either, not only because death makes you lose missions, bounty vouchers, combat bonds, cargo etc. (the rebuy cost is only a part of the entire set of consequences of ship destruction), but also because it goes against the spirit of the game to not care about your ship and having it destroyed.
I also want to particular dispel the illusion that "4 Eagles in a wing are a very dangerous thing", because 4 Vultures in a wing are at least 10x more dangerous and would blow the 4 Eagles to smithereens with impunity.

 

[Poseidal]

Yep, I hope each ship has a place in the main game too.

I wonder if the Imperial Fighter is going in?

 

[Mephane]

Oh, one thing I forgot to mention, hoping that one of the CQC devs from the interview reads this: since within CQC euipment is gradually unlocked, please don't start that progression with only fixed weapons. Some control setups (e.g. mouse+keyboard) are noticably ineffective at using fixed weapons against small and nimble targets, to the point where it can become almost torture until one reaches the point where one can ditch the fixed lasers in favour of gimballed ones.

 

[Trafalgar Law]

Oh, one thing I forgot to mention, hoping that one of the CQC devs from the interview reads this: since within CQC euipment is gradually unlocked, please don't start that progression with only fixed weapons. Some control setups (e.g. mouse+keyboard) are noticably ineffective at using fixed weapons against small and nimble targets, to the point where it can become almost torture until one reaches the point where one can ditch the fixed lasers in favour of gimballed ones.

I use mouse and keyboard and I disagree with that. I have no problem hitting targets with fixed weapons and am probably more accurate than I was with my old joystick.

 

[Poseidal]

I actually find M+K a lot easier to hit with than Joystick with fixed:

Spoiler

M+K
[video=youtube;_6ZZI6EycwI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_6ZZI6EycwI[/video]

Joystick
[video=youtube;1nEWXwRg5_8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1nEWXwRg5_8[/video]

I'm about 10 times worse with the Joystick...

 

[Ydiss]

I'm really looking forward to the pc release of cqc. It sounds like it could be perfect for me because I love flying and combat in ed but these days I can only play for about an hour.

I'm going to watch the videos of the xbox version closely.

 

[n13L5]

I haven't read about this anywhere else, so I only have the information you provided.

My first reaction to 'power ups' and other sudden table turning elements was dismay. That was fun in old arcade space games, but Elite isn't one of those games, and frankly, I wouldn't buy one of those now, no matter how shiny they made it look.

As for keeping PvP balancing separate from open world and PvE balancing, I agree, though there's still a multitude of ways to foul it up.

Personally, I'm probably the opposite kind of payer that you are: I don't give a wit about leader boards and who can shred the next guy another 20 seconds faster. That is so completely lost on me, if it is a big part of a game in any genre, I've closed the site, steam ad or Youtube channel faster than you can say next!

I feel no need to wash my brain in adrenaline for kicks, I play for immersion and relaxation. Even some pure PvE games are too much of a hassle, trying to push "excitement" too much.


So, I liked Elite 1.2 very well and all I wished for were bug fixes and improvement of existing core game mechanics, especially in the direction of exploration. Maybe I'm too old fashioned, but I would have appreciated an alien invasion.

As for stepping stone ships... well... Elite IS a leveling game. Your credits are your XP you have to grind for with repetitive tasks and your ships are your resulting level, allowing for ever increasing generation of more xp / credits .

If an Eagle is able to fight eye to eye with a Vulture, nobody could be bothered flying one of those horrific, overheating T7s back and forth hundreds of times to get an FDL. Sure they look nice, but just for looks? Eagle and Viper look decent enough too...


With that said, I still use the Zorgon Hauler and the Cobra alongside ASP, Vulture, FDL, Python and Conda.

I mean I'm with you in so far as I wish my "exclusive" Gold and Chrome paint jobs for the Viper hadn't become a complete waste with the introduction of Vulture, FDL and Python. But do I want them to completely turn the game on its head for some paint jobs I miss? Because beyond that, some low level ships that players wouldn't use anymore after a time, but NPCs do use are fine in the game, not really a 'waste'...

 

[Poseidal]

I'm not a 'ladder' player either, but I will say this: Levelling ships are bad for the game. At the end of the game, where you have a massive credit balance, having a selection of ships for different purpose is better for a game than having the one ship to rule them all.

Pure trade ships are still sort of an exception, but there should be some really compelling reasons to fly the smaller/cheaper ships.

 

[Mephane]

I use mouse and keyboard and I disagree with that. I have no problem hitting targets with fixed weapons and am probably more accurate than I was with my old joystick.

I actually find M+K a lot easier to hit with than Joystick with fixed:

Spoiler

M+K
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_6ZZI6EycwI

Joystick
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1nEWXwRg5_8

I'm about 10 times worse with the Joystick...

Does either of you happen to use "relative" mouse mode? I could imagine it being more precise for aiming than absolute mode. But I find steering vehicles (any kind of) with relative mouse mode absolutely atrocious, the moving the mouse back and forth, lifting it up, setting it back down etc. Horrible. I know lots of players don't mind, and I have witnessed personally people play like this just fine, but I simply cannot, it would suck all the fun out of steering my ship.

 

[Poseidal]

Does either of you happen to use "relative" mouse mode? I could imagine it being more precise for aiming than absolute mode. But I find steering vehicles (any kind of) with relative mouse mode absolutely atrocious, the moving the mouse back and forth, lifting it up, setting it back down etc. Horrible. I know lots of players don't mind, and I have witnessed personally people play like this just fine, but I simply cannot, it would suck all the fun out of steering my ship.

Is Relative where it 'snaps back' if you don't keep the mouse in motion?

If so, yes but I bind additional buttons (actually mouse side buttons) to pitch to use for big turns, and move the mouse where finer detail is needed.

 

[n13L5]

I'm not a 'ladder' player either, but I will say this: Levelling ships are bad for the game. At the end of the game, where you have a massive credit balance, having a selection of ships for different purpose is better for a game than having the one ship to rule them all.

Pure trade ships are still sort of an exception, but there should be some really compelling reasons to fly the smaller/cheaper ships.

There was a time when CCP decided they wanted to get EVE players back into smaller, faster, zippier ships.

Granted, they used some nerf techniques that only work when RNG decides if you hit or not. But overall, it was one of the more annoying changes, because they forced everybody out of their big ships, because suddenly, you couldn't hit the smaller ships anymore and even one very small (and cheap) ship could take out a large battleship, with the battleship pilot having no way to turn the tide, he just couldn't shoot back against the small ship.

In Elite, I'd hate it because I spent a lot of time getting cash for better ships, because that's what the game required. Not only that, I rather like my Conda, I don't want a wing of snot-nosed Eagles to become a death sentence, because, lets say, FD decides that my turrets just won't be able to hit them. Of course I'd still be able to warp out, but...

What I'm trying to say is, that I hope FD will be a LOT more subtle and smart about giving cheap ships roles that make them compelling to owners of big, expensive ships.

They already did it brilliantly with the Zorgon Hauler. (no, I don't use it for the Satanic whispering), but its an excellent taxi, runabout, reputation mission runner, near space explorer. I own over 50 of them set up for 31LY jump range.
The Cobra is also still useful for reputation grinding and as a parts-swapping transport for the Vulture.

The only things I really see as obsolete are Eagle and Viper. Maybe convert them for scouting or electronic warfare or some such? idk.

Sidewinder should stay what it is. A ship for a large variety of suicidal antics. That's more than enough of a role

 

[Mephane]

Is Relative where it 'snaps back' if you don't keep the mouse in motion?

If so, yes but I bind additional buttons (actually mouse side buttons) to pitch to use for big turns, and move the mouse where finer detail is needed.

Yes, that is relative mouse mode. I can't use it, I would go mad if I had to lift up and reposition the mouse all the time.

 

[Derath]

Oh, one thing I forgot to mention, hoping that one of the CQC devs from the interview reads this: since within CQC euipment is gradually unlocked, please don't start that progression with only fixed weapons. Some control setups (e.g. mouse+keyboard) are noticably ineffective at using fixed weapons against small and nimble targets, to the point where it can become almost torture until one reaches the point where one can ditch the fixed lasers in favour of gimballed ones.

Mouse + KB is the most accurate setting, therefore has the best chance to exploit fixed lol, not sure where your getting that gem from! I agree with your point anyway though, if they do unlocks I think fixed shouldn't be first, even to this day a vast majority of people use gimbals exclusively.

 

[Frop]

Although keeping these modes separate will indeed reduce overall balancing issues, it's still a separate part of the game which will need a lot of attention as well. I'm still not sure it's opportune right now to add another new mode to Elite (I'm considering PP as a separate mechanic as well) with the core game still needing much work.

 

[Poseidal]

Yes, that is relative mouse mode. I can't use it, I would go mad if I had to lift up and reposition the mouse all the time.

I rarely do reposition, but you must use extra binds to do so. The main one is pitch, but I have one to swap mouse Yaw/Roll when held down. I normally fly in mouse-roll(!) mode but hold down a button to make it mouse-yaw when aiming. All axes can be accessed with a button, so no resetting necessary!

 

[DidierDrbois]

I use mouse and keyboard and I disagree with that. I have no problem hitting targets with fixed weapons and am probably more accurate than I was with my old joystick.

Agree with this. Started with k+m and aiming was a lot easier. What is better with a HOTAS thingy is, umm, everything else

 

[Trafalgar Law]

Agree with this. Started with k+m and aiming was a lot easier. What is better with a HOTAS thingy is, umm, everything else

The only thing I wish I had is a proper throttle. Thrusters and whatnot I can do fine on the keyboard, but it starts getting awkward trying to bind keys for all the different throttle settings.

@Mephane:

I don't use relative mouse, I have pitch, yaw on the mouse and roll on the keyboard.

 

[Ydiss]

Yes, that is relative mouse mode. I can't use it, I would go mad if I had to lift up and reposition the mouse all the time.

I use it on roll only. Having both axis non relative (default) is very hard to control only one axis. Having roll on relative means I can pitch constantly and accurately. It does mean there's some mouse pick up required when doing a lot of rolling but that's fine by me. I've gained my mouse skills playing FPS games predominantly and pick up is something I'm used to.

And most of the time you need only roll for a short time. Whereas you need pitch constantly.

 

[Poseidal]

I also grew up on Arc Elite, where the mous was the default control system (mouse roll too, no option for mouse yaw).