Ship Classes - all mixed up.

[CMDR Nick]

I see FD on their website ship pages has the Anaconda as equivalent to a frigate or a light cruiser. This simply can't be right. Although there is debate about the relative sizes of frigates versus destroyers (this has switched round since WW2, when destroyers were 'torpedo boat destroyers' - and nowadays there are large frigates and smaller destroyers) - the fact is that cruisers, whether light or not, were then, and would be now, significantly bigger vessels than frigates. So the Anaconda is both a major vessel and a minor vessel simultaneously. Very confusing.

Essentially the order of size (and it is contentious) is Battleship, Battlecruiser (pocket battleship etc.), Heavy Cruiser, Light Cruiser, Guided Missile Destroyer (USN), Destroyer, Frigate, Escort Destroyer / Corvette, minor vessels.

So which one is it FD?

 

[Poseidal]

The Federal Corvette is rumoured to be around Anaconda size, meaning he Anaconda is at most a Frigate, more likely a Corvette or minor vessel.

The Capital ships we have are Battlecruisers, and dwarf Anacondas in such a way that the Anaconda might as well be a lifeboat or fighter plane. So much so you might as well call the Anaconda and Cobra the same size.

 

[Loskene]

I guess the designation (cruiser, destroyer, frigate, transport) has more to do with the equipment loadout than the form factor of the ship. I generally figured "cruiser" was something reserved for heavier, possibly capital class starships, but that might just be a backwards point of view wrt spaceship design.

 

[CMDR Nick]

I guess the designation (cruiser, destroyer, frigate, transport) has more to do with the equipment loadout than the form factor of the ship. I generally figured "cruiser" was something reserved for heavier, possibly capital class starships, but that might just be a backwards point of view wrt spaceship design.

Yes, this is what I don't get - cruisers are up there to escort capital ships - is the Anaconda really in that class? I have no problem with it being classed as a frigate - in the modern sense of something smaller than a destroyer - but a cruiser? Of course the role of modern frigates is mainly ASW anti submarine warfare - and there's absolutely no equivalent role in space.

 

[Loskene]

Of course the role of modern frigates is mainly ASW anti submarine warfare - and there's absolutely no equivalent role in space.

That's what has me thinking they've scrapped the tonnage requirement for ship titles. At the heart of it a ship's type is essentially its job. A destroyer destroys, a cruiser cruises, a frigate... frigs. If loadout is generally more important than spaceframe for getting a job done then potentially any ship that can meet the requirements is up for the title of heavy cruiser or whatever. I don't know, it's a confusing mess to start with.

 

[Poseidal]

I think although there are classes, we seem to have this scenario:

Most combat is fought with the highly mobile FSD ships, which the Anaconda is currently the largest. These are sent out and are quick to get to the target, or 'mission ships' - in effect, all ships around Anaconda size fulfil the 'role' of Cruiser. In fact, maybe all ships with an FSD are 'cruisers', so Sidewinder all the way up to Anaconda are all cruisers. Condors and Imperial Fighters are not, as they do not have an FSD.

The 'capital ships' like the Farragut or Interdictor classes are more like gigantic mobile bases. Because they don't have a mobile FSD like the Anaconda and down have, they are sloooow, but are a massive amount of force projection. If they were a ship, they would be a carrier, with the actual ships being actually types of aircraft even, or small boats. They seem more like mobile bases though, fully mobile battle stations.

So if we redefine for roles, we have three classes of spacecraft:

Fighter/Shuttle - F63, Imperial Fighter
Cruiser - Combat capable craft from Sidewinder all the way up to Anaconda
Carrier/Battleship/Mobile Battlestation (force projection) - Farragut, Interdictor

If we make it more 'conventional navy' where we know the Farragut is a Battlecruiser for example, then the Anaconda is a Corvette or Sloop.

Of course, this is complicated in that most 'Cruisers' I mention above are also merchant ships.

 

[dayrth]

These rolls, and relative sizes change over time. Some of the heavy frigates of the 19th century were bigger than the fourth rates (and even some third rates), of the 17th/18th. Making the comparison to FD ships is never going to be an exact science.

I guess the designation (cruiser, destroyer, frigate, transport) has more to do with the equipment loadout than the form factor of the ship. I generally figured "cruiser" was something reserved for heavier, possibly capital class starships, but that might just be a backwards point of view wrt spaceship design.

This makes sense

 

[Frankfort]

I see FD on their website ship pages has the Anaconda as equivalent to a frigate or a light cruiser. This simply can't be right. Although there is debate about the relative sizes of frigates versus destroyers (this has switched round since WW2, when destroyers were 'torpedo boat destroyers' - and nowadays there are large frigates and smaller destroyers) - the fact is that cruisers, whether light or not, were then, and would be now, significantly bigger vessels than frigates. So the Anaconda is both a major vessel and a minor vessel simultaneously. Very confusing.

Essentially the order of size (and it is contentious) is Battleship, Battlecruiser (pocket battleship etc.), Heavy Cruiser, Light Cruiser, Guided Missile Destroyer (USN), Destroyer, Frigate, Escort Destroyer / Corvette, minor vessels.



So which one is it FD?

Size and armament are irrelefant for clasification of navy ships due to politics in Europe even heavy destroyers and light cruisers are clasified to frigates a 6500 ton 48 vml 8 anti ship misles 4 torpedo launchers 2cwis destoyer is also clasified to the frigate class with ships of 3200 tons 8 harpoon 8 seasparow 4 torpedo launchers and 1 cwis .

its all politics

 

[CMDR Nick]

The problem is that, with my naval history hat on, cruiser means a pretty big ship - it's hard to see a sidey as a cruiser! If in Elite lore the Destroyer class is removed altogether, it could then make more sense, because frigates would be adjacent to light cruisers. It looks as if the battleship / dreadnought class is missing also, hence, in decreasing order of size Elite fleet composition goes:

Battlecruiser (Farragut), heavy cruiser, light cruiser, frigate, escort / corvette, fighter. That would work.

I have no problem with the Anaconda as a frigate, but as a cruiser it still seems a bad fit even after these adjustments.

p.s. I'd class Vulture as a heavy fighter.

 

[Witzo]

I would very much like to see current cultural and military conventions (and mostly NATO at that) not being applied to science fiction space ships. I'd much rather see that their own fictional context of culture, combat and astronomy be guiding the classification of ships.
My favourite example is Iain Banks' Culture novels where ships are classified by speed and function in terms of their own. So it's not a 'destroyer' but a 'rapid offensive unit'.
I'd classify my main Asp configuration as a 'longe range explorer' and Asps in general as 'general purpose'. Anacondas are 'general purpose, big hull'.

 

[jonny taco]

I'd classify the anaconda as a small corvette. From what I've heard about the federal corvette it will be a little bit bigger. If the "Cutter" ends up being the "imperial cutter" as I've heard rumored that would also fit nicely along side the federal corvette. If we're talking 20-21st century lingo a "cutter" is of very similar in size and often role to that of a corvette. Modern cutters and corvettes have near identical displacements, and lengths.

My hope is that "frigates", "destroyers", and "cruisers" are introduced as small player controlled capital ships no more than 1/3 the size of the federal BC/imperial interdictor.

 

[Tuub t Tute]

This shows the Corvette as being so long that it fits on a large pad by a hair's breadth. The back end looks like it is butting up against the control tower behind the pad.
I know it is only concept art and subject to change.

 

[CMDR Nick]

I would very much like to see current cultural and military conventions (and mostly NATO at that) not being applied to science fiction space ships. I'd much rather see that their own fictional context of culture, combat and astronomy be guiding the classification of ships.
My favourite example is Iain Banks' Culture novels where ships are classified by speed and function in terms of their own. So it's not a 'destroyer' but a 'rapid offensive unit'.
I'd classify my main Asp configuration as a 'longe range explorer' and Asps in general as 'general purpose'. Anacondas are 'general purpose, big hull'.

A reasonable approach, but what doesn't work is going with historical references like Elite (which personally I like), but that are then a little under-researched and become inconsistent in meaning.

 

[CMDR Nick]

I'd classify the anaconda as a small corvette. From what I've heard about the federal corvette it will be a little bit bigger. If the "Cutter" ends up being the "imperial cutter" as I've heard rumored that would also fit nicely along side the federal corvette. If we're talking 20-21st century lingo a "cutter" is of very similar in size and often role to that of a corvette. Modern cutters and corvettes have near identical displacements, and lengths.

My hope is that "frigates", "destroyers", and "cruisers" are introduced as small player controlled capital ships no more than 1/3 the size of the federal BC/imperial interdictor.

Yes, Cutter as in US Coastguard Cutter, which are essentially littoral patrol ships like Corvettes. Could also be classed as light frigates FFL. I like the idea of ship classes too - I don't want to see them get all confused in the game dialogue as they seem to be in danger of now

 

[Vasious]

One thing to note is the the Python and Anaconda's being designated as Cruiser and Frigates comes from "Smaller Navies"
Where as it is the Federation that has the Federal Corvette which seems to be the same size class as the Anaconda.

Doesn't necessarily means that it is a confusion just different designations for different Navies.

The Corvette is a small ship next to the Farragut Class which is capable of transporting and operating whole groups of Federal Corvettes, yet go to some small independent system, and the Corvette might be larger than the largest ship in their fleet, which they might designate a Heavy Cruiser if they bought one if all they had was Pythons as their previously largest ships