Ship Handling - The death of the game

Ship Handling - (potentially) the death of the game

No doubt I will see hate in response to this post. I am an Beta backer so recently got access to the combat scenarios in the game.

Combat was never the strong point of FE:2 or FFE. I am well aware that this is certanly not the only aspect of the game to come. But, it is already obvious that it is much more important to ED than it ever was to FE2... Put simply, it has to be HAS to be playable and accessible to appeal to a mass audience.

I am a veteran of flight simulators from way back in the 80's, and am more than capable of flying the beast that is DCS World, as well as newtonian space combat games like I-War. ED should not be a struggle for anyone with that background in games.

Having established my "abilities" and background before anyone yells "NOOB", my first impression of ED's flight is, simply, that the handling is beyond awful. The lack of Yaw unnecessarily prohibits precision aiming of fixed mount weapons. How long does it take to make a 180 degree turn with yaw alone? In excess of a minute? Roll-and-pitch of course handles better, but is atrocious for fine-tuning a shot. This was always a problem in the original Elite, it detracted from that game, and detracts from ED. Fighting against the controls is NOT fun, no matter the nostalgia value.

The other major issue I am having at the moment is that fixed mount weapons appear to have no degree of convergence. E.g. in X-wing alliance you could set guns to auto-converge at target range, or fix the convergence to various marks. Even in the first combat scenario shooting turkeys, the lack of convergence becomes apparent.

Some other (popular) space games have gotten away with no convergence function (Freespace2 comes to mind), and it's usually through mounting all the weapons close together. The few ships in FS2 that had off-centre guns (the Ursa bomber for example) - those off centre guns were dead weight other than for hitting skyscraper-sized targets! So, please sort this out!

Gimballed weapons are, between the poor handling and lack of gun convergence, by default, a thousand times more effective. I'm not arguing that they shouldn't be better and more user-friendly, but they seem overly dominant in what I've done so far.

If basic handling of the ship and weapons doesn't improve, I fear I won't be playing ED very much. You might shift boxes on shelves with hype in the short term, but a game has to be FUN to bring people back!

Finally, on a less important, but nonetheless relevant design note : who chose the (awful) HUD colours? Deus Ex Human Revolution was justly criticised for it's yellow hud, and indeed, yellow tinge to all of the graphics. The awful colour scheme was widely criticised as a "Pish Filter" - please don't follow suit with this in ED. At least give us some options to change it!
 
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On the grounds that I have a degree in physics I am pretty sure I have a good idea of the mechanics of a spacecraft and how it would influence roll rates... Mass distributions, thruster capability, inertia wheels, etc... The issue I have is not with the flight model, it's with the controls just not being FUN!

In a dogfight, I want my ship to point at what I tell it to point at. I don't want to have melee with the controls, pitching away, rolling, and then pitching back again to aim the guns! The yaw rate is so low, that even for minor corrections of this nature it is totally unsuitable. As a result you end up having to dogfight almost entirely in the vertical - the only effective tactic I have found is matching your Y-axis to the direction of flight of the target.

I have seen in many arguments that the decision to limit yaw so heavily is down to "negating the Turret-in-space syndrome". So, if that is the case, why are gimballed weapons in the game as they so clearly stand to be the weapon of choice over anything on a fixed mount! Note that I-war and it's sequel had much higher pitch/roll/yaw all round, it had both fixed and gimballed weapon mounts, and was a lot of fun to fly - definitely not manning a gun turret.

While the design decisions may have been taken with the best intentions or otherwise, the fact there are dozens of arguments of this nature clearly says that the controls are outmoded for a 2014 game.
 
HUD colours are coming don't worry. I for one cannot wait. I've seen some photo shopped pictures around the forums here and the cockpit looks great in blue, green and red.
 
I am a veteran of flight simulators from way back in the 80's, and am more than capable of flying the beast that is DCS World, as well as newtonian space combat games like I-War. ED should not be a struggle for anyone with that background in games.

I-War - My favorite space sim of all time! (So far)
Well, I personally find flying in Elite: Dangerous much easier than any of the I-War games, simply because Elite has far, far less inertia to deal with.
In fact, I'm using the exact same circle strafing techniques that I first learned to use in I-War 1 back in 97. (lateral up, pitching nose down)



Finally, on a less important, but nonetheless relevant design note : who chose the (awful) HUD colours? Deus Ex Human Revolution was justly criticised for it's yellow hud, and indeed, yellow tinge to all of the graphics. The awful colour scheme was widely criticised as a "Pish Filter" - please don't follow suit with this in ED. At least give us some options to change it!

I play a bit of DCS A-10c myself these days, but was a more of helicopter flight sim geek back in the 90's.

If you switch to night time HUD mode, you'll notice that the color is orange/amber - This is because orange is easy on the eyes in dark conditions. Space is kinda dark too.
 
No doubt I will see hate in response to this post. I am an Beta backer so recently got access to the combat scenarios in the game.

Combat was never the strong point of FE:2 or FFE. I am well aware that this is certanly not the only aspect of the game to come. But, it is already obvious that it is much more important to ED than it ever was to FE2... Put simply, it has to be HAS to be playable and accessible to appeal to a mass audience.

I am a veteran of flight simulators from way back in the 80's, and am more than capable of flying the beast that is DCS World, as well as newtonian space combat games like I-War. ED should not be a struggle for anyone with that background in games.

Having established my "abilities" and background before anyone yells "NOOB", my first impression of ED's flight is, simply, that the handling is beyond awful. The lack of Yaw unnecessarily prohibits precision aiming of fixed mount weapons. How long does it take to make a 180 degree turn with yaw alone? In excess of a minute? Roll-and-pitch of course handles better, but is atrocious for fine-tuning a shot. This was always a problem in the original Elite, it detracted from that game, and detracts from ED. Fighting against the controls is NOT fun, no matter the nostalgia value.

The other major issue I am having at the moment is that fixed mount weapons appear to have no degree of convergence. E.g. in X-wing alliance you could set guns to auto-converge at target range, or fix the convergence to various marks. Even in the first combat scenario shooting turkeys, the lack of convergence becomes apparent.

Some other (popular) space games have gotten away with no convergence function (Freespace2 comes to mind), and it's usually through mounting all the weapons close together. The few ships in FS2 that had off-centre guns (the Ursa bomber for example) - those off centre guns were dead weight other than for hitting skyscraper-sized targets! So, please sort this out!

Gimballed weapons are, between the poor handling and lack of gun convergence, by default, a thousand times more effective. I'm not arguing that they shouldn't be better and more user-friendly, but they seem overly dominant in what I've done so far.

If basic handling of the ship and weapons doesn't improve, I fear I won't be playing ED very much. You might shift boxes on shelves with hype in the short term, but a game has to be FUN to bring people back!

Finally, on a less important, but nonetheless relevant design note : who chose the (awful) HUD colours? Deus Ex Human Revolution was justly criticised for it's yellow hud, and indeed, yellow tinge to all of the graphics. The awful colour scheme was widely criticised as a "Pish Filter" - please don't follow suit with this in ED. At least give us some options to change it!

I hated ED handling at first, I preferred flight in FE2 and FFE2, however I persevered and (more importantly) bought a HOTAS setup (£40 Thrustmaster Hotas-X) and it is a lot more flyable. There is yaw, I have it mapped to the twist controller on my stick and it helps with combat.

As for the colour scheme - I am not overly bothered by it.
 
Flying with a Saitek X45 Joystick-and-throttle here too. Hotas helps, but it still isn't right!!

Also, for someone new to the genre (let's be honest, it's nearly 10 years since we've had a decent space game released!) if the entry tag becomes buy-the-game and get a £45 joystick that isn't gonna be popular. The controls have to work for keyboard/mouse as well as for HOTAS.
 
Put simply, it has to be HAS to be playable and accessible to appeal to a mass audience.

Here is your first mistake ... DB has repeatedly said that they want to make the game 'they' want to play, whether it appeals to the masses is irrelevant. For it to appeal to the masses it would need a lot of features that wouldn't make it 'Elite' anymore. There will be (and already is) enough of a following for ED to be considered a success.

Secondly, I cant see the issue myself, I use a 360 controller, and works fine for me.

I guess if you are used to those really tight flight sim mechanics you could pick fault with it, but then I think maybe you are over analyzing it rather than just enjoying it.

Its not perfect, and I am sure there will be adjustments and balancing to make it better, but it isn't fundamentally broken as you suggest it is.
 

Robert Maynard

Volunteer Moderator
Also, for someone new to the genre (let's be honest, it's nearly 10 years since we've had a decent space game released!) if the entry tag becomes buy-the-game and get a £45 joystick that isn't gonna be popular. The controls have to work for keyboard/mouse as well as for HOTAS.

Console controllers are a popular choice and you should search for Aleksej's posts on K&M control.

Did you bind your controls yourself or use a preset? Some players have had problems if they bind axis directions to roll-left, roll-right, etc. rather than binding joystick axes to control axes.
 
There is enough yaw control with my pedals (CH Pro) to keep pips on target, sure its not wide or as reactive as you see with other simulators, but I prefer the way it is now as its easier to keep fine control.
 
The slow yaw is a deliberate design decision that has been stuck to since the Kickstarter campaign. The idea was to allow 6 DOF flight but avoid tedious mult-player combat where each player would simply slow down, turn and point at each other like turrets, they also felt it made combat more interesting as you are forced to fly like a Spitfire. Apparently the in-house team have decided to stick to this fundamental principle since the game's conception.

It has caused much controversy and quite a few threads like this, however combat and the flight model in general, has been critically well received both by fans and independent media.

The truth is, it is actually fun. With a little practice you can put your ship precisely where you need it to be, on the enemies tail, strafing an asteroid, landing on a tight docking pad. While it looks amazing rotating around asteroids and huge ships.

Yes it's logically wrong, but strong game design often flies in the face of logic it would seem. You haven't followed the process so I doubt you will change your mind on my comments alone - but you should know that it wasn't a random silly decision the devs made.

On the subject of it being fun, I find the fixed weapons work very well. I can not only target the enemy but the slow Yaw allows me to pin-point sub-systems.

You will have to play the game enough to judge it on it's own merits. It maybe just an acquired taste; you either leave your pre-conceptions at the door or you declare it to be "no fun" and don't play. Your missing out though IMHO
 
...gimballed weapons in the game as they so clearly stand to be the weapon of choice over anything on a fixed mount...

Just a note on this Lave wiki seems to suggest that the gimballed weapons (and full-articulated ones) might not be as powerful as fixed ones, so I guess that the trade off will be more-power-but-harder-to-aim, vs easier-to-aim-but-weaker.

But yeah I agree with you, the controls as they are at the moment aren't really very good in my opinion.
 
No doubt I will see hate in response to this post.

nah, no hate here ;)

anyway i'm completely against anything "for the masses" so this argument is just wrong, all mainstream is bad and boring and there is just one answer to this - DB is creating game for himself and he is not playing this with the mouse and do not want it to be easy, unless you are sellout and i don't want that for ED - to sell their dream for pile of cash.

and you must know that masses are dumb and appealing to masses means dumbing all in the game down.

i dislike gimbaled weapons, i really do, but i cannot see where i need fight with controls and what with the fine aiming?
did you try AC? i wonder what would you tell after trying that game about controls and fighting..

also never even had a thought about the hud colors, it's all subjective - my brains receive necessary information and do not care in what color as long as the information is received, i can see improvements there and that's easy part.
 
I was under the impression the roll heavy controls were chosen for their FUN! value. Makes sense to me, as I've had difficulty finding any space combat game more FUN! than the original Elite over the years.

You might be interested to know the gimbals have been considerably nerfed in the later builds. They are not the be-all end-all choice anymore. Indeed the current weapon du jour is the rail gun, which has no gimballed variant.
 
"The tendency to confuse personal taste with objective
quality is nearly universal. When we have a negative
emotional reaction to something, whether that be
a song, a movie, or a game design, we rarely think, “Oh,
that’s not my cup of tea.” Instead, we think, “Ugh!
That’s awful!” This basic principle of human perception
is difficult to overcome, even when we’re intellectually
aware of it." - Robin D Laws
 
Hate? You've come to the wrong forums if that's what you want... ;)

Seriously though, the yaw and other ship handling characteristics isn't hopelessly crippled and nor is it set in stone as there are still tweaks being made to the flight model.

The key thing about Yaw is that it has been limited to prevent the turrets in space syndrome and to encourage people to fly in a more dynamic manner which I think has been achieved very well... Combat is fun and involving and you still have masses of control over your ship.

A lot of the previous answers should give you plenty to read up on that is useful and hopefully some food for thought

PS You waved your credentials as a non-noob around but you failed to mention whether you've actually played E : D. if you haven't then you need to before rushing to judgement. If you have then perhaps give yourself time to get properly used to the game dynamic... It's not an instant easy to master game.
 
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No doubt I will see hate in response to this post. I am an Beta backer so recently got access to the combat scenarios in the game.

Combat was never the strong point of FE:2 or FFE. I am well aware that this is certanly not the only aspect of the game to come. But, it is already obvious that it is much more important to ED than it ever was to FE2... Put simply, it has to be HAS to be playable and accessible to appeal to a mass audience.

I am a veteran of flight simulators from way back in the 80's, and am more than capable of flying the beast that is DCS World, as well as newtonian space combat games like I-War. ED should not be a struggle for anyone with that background in games.

Having established my "abilities" and background before anyone yells "NOOB", my first impression of ED's flight is, simply, that the handling is beyond awful. The lack of Yaw unnecessarily prohibits precision aiming of fixed mount weapons. How long does it take to make a 180 degree turn with yaw alone? In excess of a minute? Roll-and-pitch of course handles better, but is atrocious for fine-tuning a shot. This was always a problem in the original Elite, it detracted from that game, and detracts from ED. Fighting against the controls is NOT fun, no matter the nostalgia value.

The other major issue I am having at the moment is that fixed mount weapons appear to have no degree of convergence. E.g. in X-wing alliance you could set guns to auto-converge at target range, or fix the convergence to various marks. Even in the first combat scenario shooting turkeys, the lack of convergence becomes apparent.

Some other (popular) space games have gotten away with no convergence function (Freespace2 comes to mind), and it's usually through mounting all the weapons close together. The few ships in FS2 that had off-centre guns (the Ursa bomber for example) - those off centre guns were dead weight other than for hitting skyscraper-sized targets! So, please sort this out!

Gimballed weapons are, between the poor handling and lack of gun convergence, by default, a thousand times more effective. I'm not arguing that they shouldn't be better and more user-friendly, but they seem overly dominant in what I've done so far.

If basic handling of the ship and weapons doesn't improve, I fear I won't be playing ED very much. You might shift boxes on shelves with hype in the short term, but a game has to be FUN to bring people back!

Finally, on a less important, but nonetheless relevant design note : who chose the (awful) HUD colours? Deus Ex Human Revolution was justly criticised for it's yellow hud, and indeed, yellow tinge to all of the graphics. The awful colour scheme was widely criticised as a "Pish Filter" - please don't follow suit with this in ED. At least give us some options to change it!

LOL!

/5chars
 
I think calling the flight model the death of the game is maybe exaggerating a little.
It is after all based on the original game, which had no yaw at all and was one of the most popular games of its era...
It also seems to have been massively well received by most people, sometims it takes a while to click.

Its not going to be for everyone, but I keep seeing people coming on here and saying tge game will fail or die because it doesn't fit their specific idea of what they want
 
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