Ship Progression (and why it's bad)

Ok, I understand some ship progression is unavoidable but I really hope that as this game develops, frontier sees the advantages of steering away from a progression based model

For one thing, it's not entirely realistic and turns the game into a huge grind. As the game currently stands it's pretty much an algorithm based on how much money you have and how much you need to invest in commodities that determines EXACTLY what ship you are/should be flying. This is boring and makes for the feeling that basically, you just earn more credits and buy the next ship on the ladder. Even the sense that some ships are role specific is mostly an illusion as most of the large combat ships still have more cargo capabilities than the smaller cargo ships. Pretty much, if you could afford an anaconda, it seems like there'd be little reason to fly anything else.

But there's another way to go and I hope frontier starts to do it. Start making ships more role specific and start making comparative advantages to flying different classes of ships -- and give us class options!

I'd like to think that eventually a bunch of combat oriented elite players all of whom had about 200k to spend would not ALL automatically be flying Vipers.

While I realize it's a different sort of game, EVE has done this really well. Not only are there many options at each ship class, but they've achieved something amazing in making it so that even with pretty much unlimited cash and skill to invest, most fleets will still require some diversity of makeup to be successful. You really can be a hugely rich amazingly skilled pilot in that game and still just fly around a small ship meaningfully. Frontier should really think about how to make that happen here.

For starters, I'd like to see many of the role specific cargo ships having significantly more cargo hold than the combat focused ships so that there's a clear reason for their existence. A dedicated mining ship (or two) would be nice. More small fighters with slightly different capabilities yet equal performance overall. And more reasons why fighter support is important for larger ships -- interdiction, Electronic warfare and other tools could all be a little more role based and ship specific and this would be a lot more realistic and give us all a reason to stop thinking so much about the apparent 'ladder' of ships we are meant to climb

Part of the problem right now is that WHAT ELSE IS THERE TO SPEND CREDITS ON? and this is something frontier needs to figure out. If there were meaningful credit sinks of other kinds (Industry, Minigames, etc) then it wouldn't all be about just buying the next ship and there could be a more realistic distribution of ships.

Consider the alternatives. Suppose everything proceeds amazingly and this game is around for years and they add another dozen or so ships each year. Are these ALL just going to be better and better more expensive ships? Or just more ships filling in the 'gaps' in the current ladder or progression. I sure hope not. We should all want a lot more roughly equally priced ships that present playstyle options rather than the equivalent of 'levels'

That's my take anyways
 
if you could afford an anaconda, it seems like there'd be little reason to fly anything else.

i can think of a few reasons:

1: the anaconda carries half the cargo of a type 9.
2: A viper can run rings round one, get behind it and it will never get you back in its sights.
3: it has massive blind spots not covered even by turrets.
4: the drives are a really big target, no drives = you're dead.
5: you can't land an anaconda on outposts.
6: other ships have a longer jump range making them much better for exploring/long distance travel.
 
You only fly what you want - there is currently no need to fly any particular ship. Some are happiest in a Sidewinder, Cobra or Asp and going to another ship may not be progression at all.
 
Let's look at this from a more general point of view.

You start in a free ship. You can choose to play the entire game in that free ship or you can earn some credits to get into a different ship. I have friends who refuse to upgrade out of the Eagle because they like the maneuverability. I have friends who won't fly anything but the Adder and still others who only fly the Asp. I have one in particular who is refusing to get back into a combat ship until he's in a Python.

You can fly what you want. Nobody's forcing you to upgrade.

Ships ARE role specific. They ALREADY ARE.

Eagle, Viper are excellent low-range low-cargo combat ships. Haulers are excellent... well duh, haulers. Cobra and Asp are great jack of all trade ships but ace of none. Asp is like Cobra's bigger brother so naturally it costs more.

No reason to fly anything but an Anaconda if you can afford it? Clearly, you haven't seen people kill Anacondas in a Sidewinder. Clearly you've never flown an Anaconda, either. It seems like you're forming an opinion without the experience to back up that opinion.

Ship size and cost is in no way a replacement for pilot skill. None.

We already know that there are more ships coming out in the future. We may not know what they all are. You should wait to see before saying that we need more ships. We're getting them. Be patient.
 
Let's look at this from a more general point of view.

You start in a free ship. You can choose to play the entire game in that free ship or you can earn some credits to get into a different ship. I have friends who refuse to upgrade out of the Eagle because they like the maneuverability. I have friends who won't fly anything but the Adder and still others who only fly the Asp. I have one in particular who is refusing to get back into a combat ship until he's in a Python.

You can fly what you want. Nobody's forcing you to upgrade.

Ships ARE role specific. They ALREADY ARE.

Eagle, Viper are excellent low-range low-cargo combat ships. Haulers are excellent... well duh, haulers. Cobra and Asp are great jack of all trade ships but ace of none. Asp is like Cobra's bigger brother so naturally it costs more.

No reason to fly anything but an Anaconda if you can afford it? Clearly, you haven't seen people kill Anacondas in a Sidewinder. Clearly you've never flown an Anaconda, either. It seems like you're forming an opinion without the experience to back up that opinion.

Ship size and cost is in no way a replacement for pilot skill. None.

We already know that there are more ships coming out in the future. We may not know what they all are. You should wait to see before saying that we need more ships. We're getting them. Be patient.

Well, to be fair, none of my post was phrased in such a way as to imply that we aren't getting more ships. I KNOW we are getting more ships. My point is just that I'm hoping and suggesting that SINCE we are getting them, some present playstyle options at comparable pricepoints to ships we currently have.

And, yes, I have never sat in an anaconda. Take my opinion for what it's worth -- I'm like the vast majority of all players coming to this game who haven't flown it and I'm telling you my experience after my progression thus far.

Even so, I'm a little surprised at the outright disdain this suggestion has received. Do we really feel that there's a significant amount of options in (say) the 100-300k range right now? or any range for that matter?

Examples like the hauler being good at hauling... really? the hauler is good at hauling? There are combat vessels you can get to in a day from the hauler that not only haul better, but do everything else better too. Same for the Adder. Same for lots of ships. This is really my biggest gripe -- the price obsolescence that comes with these ships so quickly. What's the point of even having them in the game if we'll all just graduate to a viper a day later, and probably the cobra the day after that.

Ok fine, maybe the anaconda isn't maneuverable, etc (though it can get shockingly close in cargo to the biggest haulers). Maybe when I actually have tens of millions of credits I'll feel like I have options or I'll feel like the viper is still worth flying. If that's true it just reinforces my other point about frontier needing to figure out something else to spend credits on, and truthfully, still makes me want options so it's not a galaxy of viper/cobra pilots flying around. Consider here that the Viper is basically just as good a cargo ship as any cheaper cargo ship. Cobra way outperforms any cheaper cargo ship. WHY, even if you were a transport pilot wouldn't you be flying a Viper/cobra same as... well, everyone else. But I guess we can all just buy different paintjobs for our vipers.

Again, think of this as a gentle nudge to frontier who may already be way ahead of what I am saying. This isn't a criticism so much as a hope that the upcoming ships give us all meaningful options and not just more rungs on the ladder where all (ok most) pilots will converge as soon as they are able. One good indication of this is the (current) fact that pretty much all ships above 85k have wildly different price points.
 
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Do you know how many minutes it takes to earn 100k-300k in the stock sidewinder? Like.... 30 minutes? 40 Minutes? Maybe?

And you're already screaming for change.

No. Stop.

Go find a resource extraction point at a ringed planet and kill wanteds. Go find a nav beacon and kill wanteds. Bam, hundreds of thousands in less than an hour.

You're welcome.
 
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Why assume that everyone wants a viper and everyone will end up with one? Peeps are just as likely to all want type 6's with 104 tons capacity and a 25Ly jump range. Can vipers do that? No.

That is why different ships exist, to allow different people to experience Elite to their preference, and pretend to fly their pretend space ships in pretend space - and have real fun in doing so.
 
it can get shockingly close in cargo to the biggest haulers

i can't confirm what the cargo capacity is of either ship right now as i haven't flown either since beta but last time i looked the anaconda could carry 228 tonnes of cargo if you don't replace the shields with a cargo rack while the type 9 can carry 440 tonnes with shields. shockingly close? i think not.
 
I have lots and lots of credits, but still fly my Viper and Eagle because well, they are fun to fly. I don't need to spend credits to have fun or to feel accomplished. I like flying around looking at things and blowing things up and don't feel compelled to do anything different than what I am doing.

Just to put it in perspective...my bank account is around 300 million and I have traded exactly 23 tons for a profit of 5230 credits.
 
Do you know how many minutes it takes to earn 100k-300k in the stock sidewinder? Like.... 30 minutes? 40 Minutes? Maybe?

And you're already screaming for change.

No. Stop.

Go find a resource extraction point at a ringed planet and kill wanteds. Go find a nav beacon and kill wanteds. Bam, hundreds of thousands in less than an hour.

You're welcome.

How does rate of earn have anything to do with options? -- unless you think we should all just be rich and fly whatever we want.

Tell me, if we were all rich, how many would choose the hauler over the type 6, or for that matter the type 6 over the type 7?

This game DOES have a ship progression model. Why do you think they are sorted (Combat 3, Explorer 5, Freighter 8, etc). The ships really ARE meant to be rungs on a ladder. Are you supposing I'm mad I because I can't climb it fast enough?

I'm not sure you understand what I am saying. I guess I'm saying a lot of things -- in some ways I wish it wasn't a progression model at all, but given that it IS, I just wish we had more options at each rung, and I'm scared when we get the next ten ships they'll just be the gaps on the ladder that currently aren't filled (Combat 9, Explorer 8, etc).

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

I could 'upgrade' but I love my Red Copper Viper. Starsky in space! wait...Star..sky...Oo

Yeah, you and everyone else
 
How does rate of earn have anything to do with options? -- unless you think we should all just be rich and fly whatever we want.

Bigger ships that offer better solutions cost more. If you don't understand that, I don't know what to tell you. You're complaining about the cost of ships and the availability of ships in a certain price range. That's like complaining that there aren't more cars in the $2000-$3000 price range. WHY AREN'T THERE FIFTY CARS IN THAT PRICE RANGE? OH THE INJUSTICE!

lol.

Tell me, if we were all rich, how many would choose the hauler over the type 6, or for that matter the type 6 over the type 7?

I went from the Sidewinder to the Hauler to the Cobra to the Viper to the Type 6 to the Asp to the Type 7.

I earned every single last credit needed to make that progression. I'm currently working on hauling at 2 million credits per hour to earn enough to pimp out my Asp, which I should need about 30 million total for. It won't take me long.

Honestly, I don't even know what you're complaining about.

This game DOES have a ship progression model. Why do you think they are sorted (Combat 3, Explorer 5, Freighter 8, etc). The ships really ARE meant to be rungs on a ladder. Are you supposing I'm mad I because I can't climb it fast enough?

Yeah, that's what it seems like. You're complaining that there aren't more rungs to the ladder. You're so focused on one tiny range, the 100k-300k range. Maybe you don't know how easy it is to begin making more credits per hour than you're currently earning? Once you realize that you can make a boatload of credits relatively quickly that focusing on the 100k-300k range is pointless. Who CARES if there are only a few ships in that range? What's the actual problem? Get in there, play the game, make some money, and buy something else if you don't like your options.

The entire reason I keep upgrading ships is that the more expensive ships offer something I like over the cheaper ships. If all the ships in the game were available in the 100k-300k range, why would ANYONE fly any other ship than the top dollar ship EVER? Risk vs reward would be completely thrown out the window.

I'm not sure you understand what I am saying. I guess I'm saying a lot of things -- in some ways I wish it wasn't a progression model at all, but given that it IS, I just wish we had more options at each rung, and I'm scared when we get the next ten ships they'll just be the gaps on the ladder that currently aren't filled (Combat 9, Explorer 8, etc).

Each "rung" of the progression ladder is farther away than you want them to be. The crux of your argument is "It's too hard to move to the next rung of the ladder" to which I roll my eyes. How incredibly boring this game would be if you had nothing to work for. We're only two weeks into the game and one of my wingmates is in a Python and almost into a Type 9.

Set yourself a goal and have fun playing the game on your way to getting there. Just because you can't get there in the blink of an eye... psh.
 
I like how you completely ignore the rest of all of my points. :)

Only because they ALL completely misunderstand what I am saying.

I'll try again, with an example, though it will be EVE which is probably a bad idea since people get very us-vs-them about game comparisons. Fwiw I love both games.

In EVE, suppose I wanted to fly a medium sized ship (a cruiser) intended to produce a lot of firepower on the battlefield. Within that 'class' of ship I could choose the Moa, Omen, Caracal, Thorax, Maller, Vexor, Stabber, Rupture... the list goes on. These are not superficial options - each represents slightly different fighting styles in terms of what the ships can do and how they perform. This doesn't even take into account options for ewar or logistics in that 'class' like the blackbird, Osprey, Celestis, Scythe, Bellicose... again, the list goes on.

Now, keep in mind, that all the ships I just mentioned (and many more besides) are all roughly equally priced all just represent one CLASS of ships within which you have all those options. And that class itself fills a role of it's own that generally speaking is difficult to replace by any other class. I just listed some cruisers, but there's frigates, battlecruisers, battleships, and so on. A frequent question new players ask in eve is which ship is 'best' or even just which is 'best' in each class. EVE players laugh at this because is is NOT a progression model. Lots of games aren't progression models.

lol when you outlined your own progression with such pride ("I went from the Sidewinder to the Hauler to the Cobra to the Viper to the Type 6 to the Asp to the Type 7") you basically just reinforced what I am saying.

I don't want more 'rungs' that are closer together so I can jump from ship to next more expensive ship easier! I want more options at each rung. I want MORE ships which are comparable to the viper with subtle but meaningful differences so that instead of 59263756235262 Viper pilots flying around, we have some variety and sense of uniqueness. And I'd like to feel like a beloved ship of some class is not an eccentric choice which could easily be improved upon by just 'upgrading'.

Put another way -- The Viper is classified as a Combat ship of lvl 3. I'd like to see MORE combat lvl 3 ships instead of Combat 4, combat 5, combat 6, etc. In other words, You are exactly wrong when you think I'd like more rungs closer together. What I'd really like are no 'rungs' at all. But given that that isn't gonna change, I'd like more ships on the exact same rung and more role defining characteristics.

Anyways, it's all just my opinion and my suggestion for what's gonna give this game variety and longevity.
 
we still have another 15 ships to come, i would suggest you wait until we get them before making this kind of thread as you haven't seen them all so are only posting guesses of what will be available.
 
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