Saw this brilliant thought out post by cmdr vsterminus and will iek to share it here
I've been trying so hard to stay out of this, but I guess I suck at keeping my opinions to myself.
Can we just approach the ship transfers problem purely from a gameplay position for a moment?
The very basic question is: What good is a new feature if it does not benefit you, the player, in some meaningful way?
So, again from a gameplay perspective, not lore or realism or immersion, how does ship transfer stand to make your life better, or increase your enjoyment of the game?
[h=1]Easily consolidate your fleet in a single, convenient location.[/h]This has the potential to save you hours of time flying around in a Hauler Taxi to retrieve your scattered, forgotten ships. I have a Vulture, an Eagle, and my original Sidewinder all parked in various systems a long way from where I am now. I would like to retrieve them, but I'm not willing to put in the time to fly out there to get them because I don't care that much.
Currently the process of switching ships and flying out to a goal location sucks. It's loaded with arbitrary delays of unknown quantity and magnitude, and almost always requires the use of third party tools to avoid near-blind guesswork or existing memorization of station offerings.
Basic steps to swap ships and join a CG or your friends or whatever now:
This was my recent experience preparing and traveling to the Mu Koji system for this week's Community Goal. Imagine how much longer it could have taken, trying to track down a system that stocked Anacondas and then another that stocked Federal Corvettes, without the use of 3rd party websites.
Now just to get in the way of a common counter-argument I expect to see here...
A delay would mean basically the same thing as not having the system at all: Reaching my destination will be the end of my play session today. I won't actually get to do anything once I get there because it takes so long.
With a ship transfer system you might have some options for a change.
[h=1]In all cases, Instant/Pull is the most useful and convenient option.[/h]A lot of things in Elite are already arbitrarily tedious and time consuming. You see all the time where people have declined participation in something they think might be fun just because the time required to get out there in a ship equipped for the job is too much for them.
Do you really want to introduce a feature that could dramatically improve the situation, and then intentionally limit its usefulness just because it's not completely realistic or because you're worried about a few abuse cases?
[h=1]But what about....[/h]We've all thought about it. Nobody seems to really like the idea of ship transfer to Jaques. Don't make the entire Ship Transfer System worse just to make this scenario less common. There are better ways to deal with it. Make it cost 1 Billion credits, or just limit the transfer range to 500Ly. There are a ton of ways to deal with that sort of thing without making the system as a whole less useful in the bubble.
"Multi-purpose hulls will vanish!" --- No they won't. The Asp will still be a top tier explorer. The Python will still be a top tier long distance cargo runner. The Anaconda will still be good at absolutely everything and it still jumps far enough that most people aren't going to bother docking and sending it on ahead every time. It's possible you'll see fewer multi-purpose hulls being used for combat if people can ship their dedicated FDL around with ease, but personally I don't think it will be as significant as people seem to be fearing. If anything it just solves a problem that combat pilots have been dealing with for years now - moving them around can be an effort in frustration. It lets us fly the ship we want to fly, not the ship that is tolerable to fly.
"We already have so many things with delays" - So what?
"We already have so many things without delays" - So what?
The idea behind gameplay design is that you want your players to be engaged. You want them to get lost in your game for hours at a time, and log off wanting more. Elite has a lot of "forced observation" moments where you can't do anything but watch, and it doesn't last long enough (or isn't safe enough) to get up and leave. This includes unskippable docking and outfitting animations, loading screens between systems where you'll plow into a star if you aren't ready for the drop out, and lengthy periods of staring at menu screens for mission stacking, selling exploration data, and so on.
We also have a ton of arbitrary delays on things like outfitting your ship because there is no convenient in-game way to see who sells what without physically traveling to each system and docking at each station. We should be asking to make this process less painful, not "equally painful but different".
Do you really want MORE arbitrary waiting around in Elite?
Vote Instant. Vote Pull.
[h=1]Better Yet? Vote for ALL the things.[/h]Ideally we should get Push and Pull, with Instant and Delayed transfer. More options = more control = better for everyone.
For situations where you don't care about time you can save some credits and opt for the delay. If you need it now you can have it for a price.
This also leaves room for planning ahead, because you could send your ship on ahead of you with a delay and save credits, instead of reaching your destination and paying a bunch more to have an instant pull performed.
Just, don't screw over an opportunity to significantly improve gameplay because it isn't immersive or realistic. Gameplay sometimes has to trump realism, and this is one of those times.
I've been trying so hard to stay out of this, but I guess I suck at keeping my opinions to myself.
Can we just approach the ship transfers problem purely from a gameplay position for a moment?
The very basic question is: What good is a new feature if it does not benefit you, the player, in some meaningful way?
So, again from a gameplay perspective, not lore or realism or immersion, how does ship transfer stand to make your life better, or increase your enjoyment of the game?
[h=1]Easily consolidate your fleet in a single, convenient location.[/h]This has the potential to save you hours of time flying around in a Hauler Taxi to retrieve your scattered, forgotten ships. I have a Vulture, an Eagle, and my original Sidewinder all parked in various systems a long way from where I am now. I would like to retrieve them, but I'm not willing to put in the time to fly out there to get them because I don't care that much.
- Instant vs Delayed? Wouldn't matter. I'm not in a rush to get them, they arrive when they arrive.
- Push vs Pull? Push would defeat the purpose. If I had to fly out there to send them back, I'd never bother. With a Pull system, it would be one of the first things I did.
Currently the process of switching ships and flying out to a goal location sucks. It's loaded with arbitrary delays of unknown quantity and magnitude, and almost always requires the use of third party tools to avoid near-blind guesswork or existing memorization of station offerings.
Basic steps to swap ships and join a CG or your friends or whatever now:
- Figure out where you are and where your desired ship is
- Decide whether it's best to fly there in the current ship and store it, or store it where you are now and buy/outfit a disposable taxi
- Fly to the system your desired ship is docked in.
- Do some combination of strip down / store / sell this ship and swap to the one you want
- If it's not already fit with exactly the right modules, buy them.
- This might include traveling to other systems depending on outfitter availability and your budget. It can be quite lengthy if you want/need discounts and aren't already in LYR space. This is also where you'll probably be using eddb or INARA to locate the parts you need.
- Finally, once ready, head out to your new destination in the current ship (which may or may not be ideal for travel and could take serious time)
This was my recent experience preparing and traveling to the Mu Koji system for this week's Community Goal. Imagine how much longer it could have taken, trying to track down a system that stocked Anacondas and then another that stocked Federal Corvettes, without the use of 3rd party websites.
Now just to get in the way of a common counter-argument I expect to see here...
- No, I am not asking for a teleport-anywhere I-Win button. I'm just pointing out how long things in their current state take, and that there is room for improvement to some of the systems that are arbitrarily lengthy.
- Instant vs Delayed? Instant would save time. Delay would defeat the purpose.
A delay would mean basically the same thing as not having the system at all: Reaching my destination will be the end of my play session today. I won't actually get to do anything once I get there because it takes so long.
- Push vs Pull? Wouldn't matter. I still have to get to my desired ship and outfit it, and then I still have to travel to my new destination. So whether I send my ship on ahead, or get there and summon it, it probably doesn't make a lot of difference (except in a delay system, sending it ahead would save some time.)
With a ship transfer system you might have some options for a change.
- Instant vs Delayed? Instant would allow you to respond immediately, while a delay might not help you at all. Just like having to go manually fetch the ship, by the time it arrives you might find the person you're trying to retaliate against has already logged off for the day.
- Push vs Pull? Push requires planning ahead, adds arbitrary time to long trips, making the feature useless if you don't stop by your "home" station and send your combat ship out ahead of you every time. Maybe there are strategic elements to this, but from a gameplay perspective it means adding arbitrary time to every adventure outside the bubble, and then requires a trip back out there to send your combat ship home at the end. It adds a lot of time and I probably wouldn't bother.
[h=1]In all cases, Instant/Pull is the most useful and convenient option.[/h]A lot of things in Elite are already arbitrarily tedious and time consuming. You see all the time where people have declined participation in something they think might be fun just because the time required to get out there in a ship equipped for the job is too much for them.
Do you really want to introduce a feature that could dramatically improve the situation, and then intentionally limit its usefulness just because it's not completely realistic or because you're worried about a few abuse cases?
[h=1]But what about....[/h]We've all thought about it. Nobody seems to really like the idea of ship transfer to Jaques. Don't make the entire Ship Transfer System worse just to make this scenario less common. There are better ways to deal with it. Make it cost 1 Billion credits, or just limit the transfer range to 500Ly. There are a ton of ways to deal with that sort of thing without making the system as a whole less useful in the bubble.
"Multi-purpose hulls will vanish!" --- No they won't. The Asp will still be a top tier explorer. The Python will still be a top tier long distance cargo runner. The Anaconda will still be good at absolutely everything and it still jumps far enough that most people aren't going to bother docking and sending it on ahead every time. It's possible you'll see fewer multi-purpose hulls being used for combat if people can ship their dedicated FDL around with ease, but personally I don't think it will be as significant as people seem to be fearing. If anything it just solves a problem that combat pilots have been dealing with for years now - moving them around can be an effort in frustration. It lets us fly the ship we want to fly, not the ship that is tolerable to fly.
"We already have so many things with delays" - So what?
"We already have so many things without delays" - So what?
The idea behind gameplay design is that you want your players to be engaged. You want them to get lost in your game for hours at a time, and log off wanting more. Elite has a lot of "forced observation" moments where you can't do anything but watch, and it doesn't last long enough (or isn't safe enough) to get up and leave. This includes unskippable docking and outfitting animations, loading screens between systems where you'll plow into a star if you aren't ready for the drop out, and lengthy periods of staring at menu screens for mission stacking, selling exploration data, and so on.
We also have a ton of arbitrary delays on things like outfitting your ship because there is no convenient in-game way to see who sells what without physically traveling to each system and docking at each station. We should be asking to make this process less painful, not "equally painful but different".
Do you really want MORE arbitrary waiting around in Elite?
Vote Instant. Vote Pull.
[h=1]Better Yet? Vote for ALL the things.[/h]Ideally we should get Push and Pull, with Instant and Delayed transfer. More options = more control = better for everyone.
For situations where you don't care about time you can save some credits and opt for the delay. If you need it now you can have it for a price.
This also leaves room for planning ahead, because you could send your ship on ahead of you with a delay and save credits, instead of reaching your destination and paying a bunch more to have an instant pull performed.
Just, don't screw over an opportunity to significantly improve gameplay because it isn't immersive or realistic. Gameplay sometimes has to trump realism, and this is one of those times.
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