Shipbuilding - Game design flaw

[EAGLE 5]

I hear what you're saying and it does make sense, however the pew pew is strong with Sci FI and Elite by default so strictly going on handwavium here, I'm fine with procedurally generated cannon fodder for the sake of gameplay.

 

[andrak]

In a recent pair of CGs I worked out that there must have been at least 100,000 ships destroyed every day - This is absurd, it would require 100 planets each with 10 shipyards each turning out 100 ships a day just to keep the attrition rate stable.

Basically destroying ships is too easy and too common and not a realistic mechanism. Destroying a ship should be a rare and unusual event, instead the player (or NPC) who is losing a fight would and should run away and the victor should get merit based on the de-facto victory and the damage inflicted.

This is a product of taking a solo game and expanding it to a multi-player game without considering the scaling factors - If a solo game player destroys 100 ships it makes little difference to the overall NPC population, if 10,000 players each destroy 100 ships then it's a very different situation.

Also I certainly understand the visceral pleasure of seeing another ship go boom! but that is an arcade game feature, Elite is supposed to be a space sim, not an arcade game.

But the horse is out of the stable and I cannot see how this can be changed now and I suspect any changes to this would be less welcome than a Vogon poetry recital.

The game has much bigger and more important issues that need solving than this.

 

[Vandaahl]

Shipbuilding in 3301 is just:
[File] *click*
[New ship] *click*

Done.

 

[Thanewright]

Hah! "Yeah we just 3D print these ships, takes about 5 minutes".
"Why is the buyback cost 5% the cost of the total ship? How do you make money on that?"
"Because that's the actual price of the ship. Remember we just 3D print these things, we can churn them out. 5% is the cost to make em, plus a little extra.
That price you pay at the start... that's the license fee for using the design".

 

[Karakhian]

I fail to see why the argument proceeded past this point.

Yeah, I agree. If it's between the two, gameplay should always win.

I guess it was the initial objection being a little off for me. As someone else pointed out, Earth today produces 200,000 cars a day. That's already double the number of ship losses that were being described in the OP as economy-collapsing. And equating cars today to ships in Elite doesn't seem that implausible.

 

[CMDR Darkler]

Most of the ships are probably very modular, so you don't need shipyards to construct most of them, just need them for final assembly. Added to which most of the ships the players buy are probably second-hand or third or fourth.. (a significant number of the ships which are blown up are probably towed back to a junk yard and re-purposed into working ships as well - the insurance companies want to recoup some costs after all)

 

[CTCParadox]

The bigger issue I have with the sheer number of ships destroyed is not with realism but actually gameplay.
Which is more fun and memorable in other games? Destroying hundreds of mook enemies who pose basically no threat or tense, difficult fights (like boss fights) that have you on the edge of your seat?
Elite currently lacks those tense moments, it's a long, samey grind of forgettable encounters which leave you struggling to remember what you even did during your playtime.
PVP currently being the only exception to this.

 

[Slippery Jim DiGriz]

And equating cars today to ships in Elite doesn't seem that implausible.

That only works if getting a pilots licence is as easy as it is to currently get a driving licence.

In the game mythos we are the "Elite" the happy few who have won a pilots licence - the overwhelming majority of the populations will not be so blessed otherwise each system would need hundreds or thousands of stations to accommodate all the traffic and not the one or two as seen in most systems.

 

[Karakhian]

That only works if getting a pilots licence is as easy as it is to currently get a driving licence.

In the game mythos we are the "Elite" the happy few who have won a pilots licence - the overwhelming majority of the populations will not be so blessed otherwise each system would need hundreds or thousands of stations to accommodate all the traffic and not the one or two as seen in most systems.

The context was of production capability - which was the part I found odd. It didn't seem at all hard to imagine the Elite galaxy being able to replace 100,000 ships a day, or even a lot more than that.

If you're taking issue with 'realism' in the amount of traffic or number of stations, then you're attempting to fine-grain predictions about what's possible or not possible over a millenium in the future. I'm not sure how profitable it is to talk about 'realism' in that context. You're declaring that it is economically 'unrealistic' for that many ships to be blown up - in a galaxy where there is faster than light travel. Can you see that might be a bit hard to swallow? Discussing it is one thing, but describing it as a 'gameplay flaw' is a bit bizarre.

And in any case, as someone else said gameplay should come first and the lore-explanation should be led by it. Sometimes it doesn't even need an explanation. The 'poor yaw' flight model has no explanation, and doesn't need one, because it adds so much to dogfighting gameplay that practically nobody cares.

 

[Tarman]

The context was of production capability - which was the part I found odd. It didn't seem at all hard to imagine the Elite galaxy being able to replace 100,000 ships a day, or even a lot more than that.

If you're taking issue with 'realism' in the amount of traffic or number of stations, then you're attempting to fine-grain predictions about what's possible or not possible over a millenium in the future. I'm not sure how profitable it is to talk about 'realism' in that context. You're declaring that it is economically 'unrealistic' for that many ships to be blown up - in a galaxy where there is faster than light travel. Can you see that might be a bit hard to swallow? Discussing it is one thing, but describing it as a 'gameplay flaw' is a bit bizarre.

And in any case, as someone else said gameplay should come first and the lore-explanation should be led by it. Sometimes it doesn't even need an explanation. The 'poor yaw' flight model has no explanation, and doesn't need one, because it adds so much to dogfighting gameplay that practically nobody cares.

Realistic traffic flow generation is completely a technical issue. The game can't even currently handle masses of dumped cargo without choking out, hence our 20T floaters-limit. Believably thick space traffic is probably going to be a while based on getting it working at better than 3fps and 9000 ping.

 

[Nanos]

I would prefer if supply of ships was linked material supplies, eg. if a lot of haulers get shot down, and there isn't enough of material X to make item Y, then there is a local shortage, and prices go up..

Reminds me of course of Eve-Online, where this kind of thing does happen.

And it can take you a lot of time and effort to get something built, as such you tend to look after it more !

Also, the issue of insurance..

I wish that was modelled correctly so those of us with a no claims bonus can benefit against those who die every day..

After all, they bother with little things like speeding fines, and parking violations pretty harshly !

 

[Jenner]

Also I certainly understand the visceral pleasure of seeing another ship go boom! but that is an arcade game feature, Elite is supposed to be a space sim, not an arcade game.
.

I have to disagree I'm afraid. Elite is firmly on the 'game' side of the 'simulation/game' continuum. As others have said realism has to often take a backseat to gameplay. I see your point, but I'm afraid I don't really see it as that big an issue I guess.

There are lots of other things I'd rather see tweaked to help my suspension of disbelief.

 

[Slippery Jim DiGriz]

I have to disagree I'm afraid. Elite is firmly on the 'game' side of the 'simulation/game' continuum. As others have said realism has to often take a backseat to gameplay. I see your point, but I'm afraid I don't really see it as that big an issue I guess.

There are lots of other things I'd rather see tweaked to help my suspension of disbelief.

Well ED say it's a space Sim and I suppose they should know, but as I said my opening post:

But the horse is out of the stable and I cannot see how this can be changed now and I suspect any changes to this would be less welcome than a Vogon poetry recital.

So I really don't expect any changes to the model to be considered at this point - If I did I would have posted this in "Dangerous Suggestions" and not "Dangerous Discussion"

 

[Bostlabs]

The bigger issue I have with the sheer number of ships destroyed is not with realism but actually gameplay.
Which is more fun and memorable in other games? Destroying hundreds of mook enemies who pose basically no threat or tense, difficult fights (like boss fights) that have you on the edge of your seat?
Elite currently lacks those tense moments, it's a long, samey grind of forgettable encounters which leave you struggling to remember what you even did during your playtime.
PVP currently being the only exception to this.

I was in Wolf 906 last night doing some undermining with my Wing. I had chased a contact away from my wing as one of my wing mates got interdicted. My other wing mate stated they would drop in on her wake and help. I had just interdicted my contact, an expert viper.

The NPC and I tusseled for a bit, but my Imperial Courier won out at the end. I entered SC and headed back toward my wing mates. But the viper had called for help. I got interdicted by another viper. We fought and I won but he had called for help too. More Feds started dropping in. Two then three and I managed to kill the vipers, Eagles and Cobras that showed up. Then a few anacondas showed up with the smaller ships. I started getting beat up a bit. But I managed to fight on, alone, and recover my shields by taking them on a merry chase.

After two anacondas showed up and my shields started ringing, I called for help from my wing. We fought on for a bit and I was empty of chaff and my cannons were damaged. When my hull dropped to 58% we decided it was time to bug out.

Sara's minions gave me a heck of a ride last night. The edge of my seat was reached more than a few times. (Thanks Sara!)

Sigh, I wish I had been recording.