Shipyard offer and BGS?

[S0rkvild]

What is offerd by local shipyards is determined by superpower alignment of ruling faction and powerplay layer. That is for sure, but I'd like to ask what causes shipyards to offer different types of ships in uncontrolled system and non-powerplay affected areas? Is offer determined by type of government which means that corporate body will offer different ships than theocrats? No - look below.

Or maybe type of economy of a station dictates the offer? Also no - look below.

For example

Industrial, independent Confederacy, no powerplay, coriolis port

• • Asp Scout
  • Cobra Mk. III
  • Diamondback Scout
  • Eagle Mk. II
  • Hauler
  • Keelback
  • Sidewinder Mk. I
  • Type-6 Transporter
  • Type-7 Transporter
  • Viper MK IV
  • Viper Mk III

VS

Industrial, independent Anarchy, no powerplay, ocellus port

• Asp Scout
• Cobra Mk. III
• Eagle Mk. II
• Hauler
• Keelback
• Sidewinder Mk. I
• Type-6 Transporter
• Type-7 Transporter
• Vulture

VS

Industrial, indep. Communism, co powerplay, coriolis

• Anaconda
• Cobra Mk. III
• Eagle Mk. II
• Hauler
• Keelback
• Krait MkII
• Sidewinder Mk. I
• Type-6 Transporter
• Type-7 Transporter

So what really makes shipyard stock different? Dice roll? Model of the station? What are your observations?

 

[Maolagin]

The major factor I've noticed is that the more expensive ships are more likely to be available at larger population/richer stations/systems. I'm guessing the third example you posted above was from a somewhat higher population system than the first two.

I feel like there are other correlations, but they're subtle enough that I'd want to see data rather than try to guess from general impressions.

 

[Ian Doncaster]

Government type does affect outfitting, so may also affect shipyard.

However, the way to test this is to change the government type at the same station, rather than comparing two similar stations, as there are a lot of other factors.

There's really not been much study done on this - based on what I've seen and the public information available, as well as a Frontier comment:
1) Stations have an "outfitting level", which allocates them a number of slots for various equipment types and (if they have a shipyard) ships.
2) This outfitting level is generally higher for high-population systems, industrial and high-tech economies - but this is just a consequence of rules in the original procedural generation and won't hold for hand-placed systems.
3) Given a station, the government type affects the choices for those slots, but other factors affect this more for stations with non-identical outfitting levels. The superpower-restricted ships (and corresponding armours) are the only really obvious effects.
4) Stations restock on a weekly? cycle which may lead to them picking different items from the lists.
5) There is probably a tech tree or a cost model or something which means that systems with low levels have both few items and not very good ones.

 

[S0rkvild]

I changed the ruling body of one system from democracy to prison colony, both independent and shipyard offer has changed. For example Anaconda (Demo) was replaced by Krait (Pr.Col.), both Vipers (D) were replaced by Vulture (PC).

 

[Factabulous]

Some charts based upon eddb station stocks for a bit of fun. The charts are normalised to 100% which means some ships are less unreliable (as they are only present in a few systems - like the Mamba). More non-normalised charts (with handy hover) and data available here.

Government Type is a bit of a 'false friend' as many government types are related to the superpower type:

So from the above you might think Patronage was associated with some ships - but ofc it is actually the Imperial / Saud Kruger preference for Imperial Systems - which are the ones with Patronage (I believe).

(Superpower) Allegiance is clearer:

I hadn't realised (for example) that Kraits are so biased to independent systems. I find it interesting that even the superpower-associated ships are available outside their superpower, though only normally a small number of systems (I took all the 'special' systems out before creating this dataset, so it's not SD etc - though ofc I may be missing more obscure 'strange' systems).

Economy is slightly interesting ( to me ) :

The CM4 really likes Agri economies, and Diamondbacks like Extraction / Colony economies more than most. Careful with some of this as small numbers of data points makes some look related to High Tech where it may just be the number of samples. Looking at the non-normalised data you can see that Mamba / FdL are available in less locations that most, so still trying to work out if there are enough samples:

Edit: Switched to white backgrounds as the ship names vanished in black theme

 

[Ian Doncaster]

Very interesting.

I hadn't realised (for example) that Kraits are so biased to independent systems. I find it interesting that even the superpower-associated ships are available outside their superpower, though only normally a small number of systems (I took all the 'special' systems out before creating this dataset, so it's not SD etc - though ofc I may be missing more obscure 'strange' systems).

Kraits ... I wonder if the superpower-aligned shipyards are picking one of their ships for this, so the Krait usually only gets picked for shipyards which are independent (so can't have a superpower-aligned ship) or really large.

Availability outside superpower:
- Anarchy shipyards can do this (though are rare)
- could just be that the shipyard data is older than the ownership data?
- are you going on superpower of station or system?
- there was an EDDI bug a while back which put shipyard data from the previous system instead. Might still be an issue for ones with really old update dates.

 

[Factabulous]

- Anarchy shipyards can do this (though are rare)

I'll have a look - but some things like Cutters being available from the Feds seems unlikely. I'm wondering if availability is based upon the 'alignment of the system when the station was added' - so we see (for example) older ships that were previously available at Imperial systems still being available from those stations even after the Empire lost control. This may also explain why the Alliance ships are pretty much available from Alliance stations, but the T10 is more widely available (as it has been around longer).

I'm currently planning on trying to flip a 'vette Shipyard away from the Feds (currently 'vette is the only ship only available in Federation yards) to see what happens

could just be that the shipyard data is older than the ownership data?

Could be, good point. I could filter out different timestamps, though obviously that will reduce the data set size

- are you going on superpower of station or system?

Station (well, I'm basing it all on the stations.jsonl file from eddb.io - there may be underlying issues in that data set I'm unaware of)

 

[Factabulous]

Could be, good point. I could filter out different timestamps, though obviously that will reduce the data set size

Just to follow up - I created a dataset based on only the stations where the shipyard data is at least as fresh as the station data, and the results are similar:

For reference this is the unfiltered data set (larger sample, more dubious ship -> state mapping), but I can't point to a difference. Looks like we lose around 50% of the stations - e.g. Sidewinders come down from ~16k -> ~8k samples:

I still think I might go look at some of the non-Empire Cutter shipyards just to double check. The underlying data is in the 'Filtered Allegiance' tabs in the spreadsheet

 

[Factabulous]

I still think I might go look at some of the non-Empire Cutter shipyards just to double check.

Choosing randomly - V374 Pegasi is Fed (faction) controlled but has the Cutter available in the shipyard. I don't see any Empire native factions in the system, so I doubt it was ever an Empire controlling faction. Interestingly it is PP controlled by Denton Patreus, so maybe PP is being used ... looks like I need more data munging...

 

[Factabulous]

Here's another fun one - System Security vs Ship Availability - T10 and Phantom seem to like Anarchies more than other ships Though even there it's strange as the T10 is widely available in High Security systems, but the Phantom is scarce in those systems and prefers Low Sec (where the T10 is rare). Neither are very common, so it could be a data artefact, but both have around 700 shipyards, so I'd more expect weirdness around rarer ships like the 'vette

 

[CMDR Quade]

Choosing randomly - V374 Pegasi is Fed (faction) controlled but has the Cutter available in the shipyard. I don't see any Empire native factions in the system, so I doubt it was ever an Empire controlling faction. Interestingly it is PP controlled by Denton Patreus, so maybe PP is being used ... looks like I need more data munging...

For reference if you do fiddle around with PP's relationship to shipyard availability, here are the powers that state some kind of impact on ships in their controlled systems. I'm just copying from the PP UI's STATS tabs. No clue whether or not these actually work as stated or have impacts in ways that are unstated.

Mahon: none
ALD: none
AD: none
Hudson: Control Systems - Shipyards stock Vulture, Eagle, and Federal Dropship
Grom: none
Patreus: Control Systems - 10% price reduction on Imperial ships in shipyards in his domain
Winters: none
LYR: Control Systems - All shipyards stock Cobra, Diamondback, Asp, and Python
Antal: none
Delaine: none
Torval: Control Systems - Imperial ships available in all shipyards

Fantastic work and much needed context on the connections between outfitting and BGS, Superpowers, Powers, etc.

 

[Rubbernuke]

For reference if you do fiddle around with PP's relationship to shipyard availability, here are the powers that state some kind of impact on ships in their controlled systems. I'm just copying from the PP UI's STATS tabs. No clue whether or not these actually work as stated or have impacts in ways that are unstated.

Mahon: none
ALD: none
AD: none
Hudson: Control Systems - Shipyards stock Vulture, Eagle, and Federal Dropship
Grom: none
Patreus: Control Systems - 10% price reduction on Imperial ships in shipyards in his domain
Winters: none
LYR: Control Systems - All shipyards stock Cobra, Diamondback, Asp, and Python
Antal: none
Delaine: none
Torval: Control Systems - Imperial ships available in all shipyards

Fantastic work and much needed context on the connections between outfitting and BGS, Superpowers, Powers, etc.

I don't know if it has any bearing, but The King halves security- the question is, is this effect on shipyards as well or is it just a brute force halving after other considerations.

 

[CMDR Quade]

I don't know if it has any bearing, but The King halves security- the question is, is this effect on shipyards as well or is it just a brute force halving after other considerations.

Yeah, I didn't even think of that. Most of the powers have some kind of impact on security and some kind of impact on the types of factions that gain or lose influence

 

[Factabulous]

For reference if you do fiddle around with PP's relationship to shipyard availability, here are the powers that state some kind of impact on ships in their controlled systems. I'm just copying from the PP UI's STATS tabs. No clue whether or not these actually work as stated or have impacts in ways that are unstated.

Mahon: none
ALD: none
AD: none
Hudson: Control Systems - Shipyards stock Vulture, Eagle, and Federal Dropship
Grom: none
Patreus: Control Systems - 10% price reduction on Imperial ships in shipyards in his domain
Winters: none
LYR: Control Systems - All shipyards stock Cobra, Diamondback, Asp, and Python
Antal: none
Delaine: none
Torval: Control Systems - Imperial ships available in all shipyards

Fantastic work and much needed context on the connections between outfitting and BGS, Superpowers, Powers, etc.

Interesting - here is the Control systems (hadn't put it in here as it doesn't say anything to me, though it's in the spreadsheet). To me it just looks like another form of the Allegiance spread as Allegiance maps to PP, but maybe someone else will see something.

 

[CMDR Quade]

I wonder if there are useful edge cases to look at? For example, Zachary Hudson favors Feudal and Patronage governments in his control systems. This means his pledges would benefit from spreading those kinds of governments in his space. BUT there cannot be Federation Feudal minor factions and there cannot be Federation Patronages. So you have a conflict between the Superpower allegiance of the Power and the Superpower allegiance of the Minor Factions. It's dumb, but it's how FD made it. I wonder if there's a difference in outfitting surrounding these kinds of weird cases?

 

[Factabulous]

One more - 'number of ships available in shipyard' vs 'log10 of system population':

Interesting in that there are differences - but it's not necessarily that a higher (system) population implies more ships. The outliers with 30 ships are both Okinura (Bennett Gateway and Fisher Terminal) - are they known as manual placements? Okinura has a lot of shipyards, including several with far fewer ships available. If the population is associated with specific stations / planets that may explain why we see the most populous shipyards not being in the largest systems (might be a good idea to normalise the data by the number of populated locations in a system, if that was possible to find).

Edit: Though Okinura also points to the difficulty of assigning population -> location as it has multiple Orbis starports with different numbers of ships in the shipyards.

 

[Ian Doncaster]

Edit: Though Okinura also points to the difficulty of assigning population -> location as it has multiple Orbis starports with different numbers of ships in the shipyards.

You can probably estimate the station population from the Hydrogen Fuel on its markets.

Population = (HF tonnage / State Factors)^2 / 1806.5 (most economies)
Population = (HF tonnage / State Factors)^2 / 0.1843 (Colony economies)

State Factors = product of supply quantity factors for all current states (you'll need to be careful to make sure the market data and your state data are from the same tick here)
You can look them up at https://cdb.sotl.org.uk/effects/c/1 {the Inf Failure one is wrong, and should actually be zero, of course}

Will give slightly odd results for some hand-placed stations, but on the other hand I wouldn't expect those to have typical outfitting anyway.

 

[Factabulous]

I'm currently planning on trying to flip a 'vette Shipyard away from the Feds (currently 'vette is the only ship only available in Federation yards) to see what happens

Just to follow up - this week I flipped Gabriel Relay in Jaara from Fed -> Independent(Anarchy). Previously the shipyard sold the 'vette and other federal ships, but now it has Kraits, some alliance ships, and no 'vette. More changes that I expected.

before/after: