Should Frontier start including less mammals in upcoming packs, and start giving us more us more of other classes?

Part hot take, part curiosity for discussion....mammals are very well represented in the game in comparison fish (not even possible at the moment), birds (either with or without flying capabilities), Reptiles, Amphibians and the various invertebrates. I'm feeling like Frontier should start including less mammals in upcoming packs, even though they're almost always the "star" of the packs...it just seems too heavily skewed to them right now. And I realize, zoos and zoo games have largely depended on mammals for their core inclusions, but we largely have enough animals to make that happen in our own zoos now.

I'm not saying that there shouldn't be any more mammals introduced. Far from it. But looking over the post-base game support (including bonus and anniversary animals) we've gotten a total of 57 mammals and 22 combined of Birds, Reptiles, Amphibians and Invertebrates - including all 5 butterflies separately. Even without discussing fish at this point since it's possible that it's impossible the would work with current game mechanics (I hope that makes sense!)...it just seems unrealistically balanced.

Curious though at this point, looking at your own list, how many mammals make up the point where you're satisfied if no more mammals were included? I'm hovering at about 15-20 total myself...and if it really came down to it I could probably take it all the way down to 7 core mammals that I "really" want in the game.

I realize too that we're likely to end up with much less exhibit type animals in future content compared to habitat animals, that's the way it's been and it's likely that's the way it will continue to be, in general terms. Also realizing that invertebrates and amphibians would have very few habitat options (none for invertebrates honestly.) So we're mostly talking about more reptiles and more birds. Birds would be great if they have flying animations, either as walkthrough/non walkthrough or habitat animals, but I'm to the point that I feel like they don't have to, many of us just want to see them represented.

Just interested in people's thoughts in this mammal-skewed game. which...my own wants and favorite animals also represent this. I'm just feeling like we're at the point that should change a little. Even just adding an extra non-mammal to each pack...would be great.
 
Interesting thoughts. I never really thought of it that way, but I can understand the want.
Honestly, I think that a full bird animal pack is a good idea to bring more habitat birds and maybe, MAYBE, a group of parrots?

Like, here's a hypothetical Avian animal pack:
  1. Greater Rhea
  2. Scarlet ibis
  3. Roseate spoonbill
  4. Great white pelican
  5. Secretary bird
  6. Southern rockhopper penguin
  7. Southern screamer
  8. Scarlet macaw (WE)
  9. Hyacinth macaw (WE)
  10. African grey parrot (WE)
  11. Blue and yellow macaw (WE)
  12. Military macaw (WE)
Now, that's 1/4 packs for this year, right? So, what's next?
Well, that's where it gets tricky. Mammals, it's gonna be extremely difficult to not include too many (less than 7, following your rules). But, let's give it a shot...

Islands pack
  1. North Island brown kiwi
  2. Fossa
  3. Tasmanian devil
  4. Green sea turtle
  5. Panther chameleon (E)
4th anniversary
  • American flamingo
Fantastic Fauna animal pack
  1. Nile crocodile
  2. Red-footed tortoise
  3. Blue billed currassow
  4. Victoria crowned pigeon
  5. Perentie
  6. Atlantic puffin
  7. Hawksbill sea turtle
  8. Toco toucan (WE)
Treetops pack
  1. Black howler monkey
  2. Lars gibbon
  3. Goodfellow's tree kangaroo
  4. South American coati
  5. Hoffman's two-toed sloth (WE)

I know, this isn't very likely, but it was worth a shot, right?

But, it made me think: mammals really do make the bulk of the game, right? There are just too many mammals to ignore, so I'm voting that, for the best balanced choice, we need an Aviary animal pack, which will bring at least 8 birds into the game, maybe 12 if they give it the butterfly treatment.

Afterwards, we have 15 habitat slots left (4 + 7 + 4) 3-5 habitat reptiles, 10 mammals, 5 habitat birds...
 
Oh absolutely. As it's been said here before, the walkthrough exhibits are a beacon of hope for flighted birds. But besides that, there are SO many terrestrial and aquatic avians that would work perfectly as habitat animals (kiwi, pelicans, DUCKS, secretary bird, turkeys, pheasants, ground hornbills, burrowing owls, puffins, ibis, spoonbills, the list is endless).

From what I gathered around here and the subreddit, the emu was one of, if not the most, anticipated animals when the Grasslands Pack dropped. Along with that, the most recent revision of the Meta-Wishlist has 4 birds now in the Top 20 most requested animals (kiwi, secretary bird, shoebill, and the gray crowned crane) - so there is certainly a unquestionable want for birds. Frankly, I think the desire for their inclusion is much larger than Frontier realizes.

As for reptiles, there's still plenty of choices for more inclusions, in one particular group I'm surprised I don't see more people rallying for: turtles.
There's so many opportunities to build upon both reptile and semi-aquatic numbers with them. And not just as exhibit animals - there's a great deal of very large turtle species that can certainly have enclosures. I'm quite disappointed we didn't get one in the new Wetlands DLC.
Contenders include the alligator snapping turtle, fly river turtle, Amazon river turtle, giant softshell turtle, and of course sea turtles

If Frontier gave me the keys, going forward, every future pack would have at least one habitat bird (potentially WE flying birds is a WHOLE other post) and one habitat reptile.

The way I see things, 2023 is going to be a VERY important year for Frontier to gauge how much longer support for PZ can go on, and if they want longevity (as I'm sure we all do), it can't just be pre-existing rigs of canids, felines, and hoofstock every time.

EDIT: And in regards to mammals, while not the most popular take, tbh I think I've had my fill. There are certainly a few more charismatic icons we're lacking (sloth, walrus, porcupine, taz), "legacy" zoo simulation species from the Zoo Tycoon days (dromedary, sea otter, markhor [VASTLY underrated imo], muskox, gelada, etc.) and some zoo staples (red river hog, sifaka, fossa, MONKEYS), but ultimately outside those dozen or so, my wishlist is more focused on birds and herpes.

Although, all bets are off if we get a petting zoo pack with barnyard pals.
 
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I much prefer mammals over non-mammals. I do think we're desperately lacking in birds, though, even when only considering those reasonable to include with current mechanics. The grey-crowned crane and rhea are the bare minimum of what I'd like to see, but there are so many options that I feel like we should've been getting at least one bird in every animal pack and most scenery packs for a while now. Kiwi, roadrunner, white stork, another penguin, pheasants, guinefowl, ground hornbills, swans, ducks, geese. All super welcome in my eyes, all super feasible without requiring new mechanics.

Herps on the other hand I can't get excited for. Exhibit species aren't fun to use, and it's apparent at this point that the only habitat reptiles we can expect are crocodilians, monitors, and tortoises - the latter two of which we haven't seen since launch. I'd love to see a couple more tortoises and maybe one more monitor, but it's hard to consider them a priority beyond that. And overall, the number of mammals I'm passionate about still greatly outweighs the number of non-mammals. So status quo mostly works for me, I guess.
 
I think it's pretty hard for us to have "too many" mammals, they are the stars of zoos for the most parts and there is still many we need.

Birds are still in a dire situation and I would absolutely love to see a ton more but I don't think it's realistic.

With reptiles, majority of them would be exhibit species and I don't really see much more habitat reptiles at all (only one we need truly is a large freshwater turtle imo).

Amphibians and Inverts are basically destined to just be exhibit species except maybe the giant salamander or coconut crab but I think they are unlikely.

Anyway my point is I can only really see more birds replacing many future habitat mammals... Which honestly I'd be more than happy with but I know others wouldn't.
 
I think mammals will still make the majority of animals in packs (and they should honestly, we are missing tons of them as well), but i would love if Frontier isn't afraid to include at least 2 birds and 1 or 2 reptiles (exhibit included) in their packs along with the mammals. Even in the regular packs 2 mammals, 1 bird, 1 reptile or just 2 birds and 2 mammals would be a nice improvement for me.

And they don't even have to be flying birds. We could (and should) get DUCKS, SWANS, geese, more galliformes like pheasants and guineafowls, curassows, ibises, spoonbills, storks and cranes. We are still missing the rhea, kiwi and secretary bird, and there are a couple of penguin species i will like as well. None of these need flying mechanics to work ingame.
 
Im going to fix title for you:

Should Frontier start including less mammals carnivorans in upcoming packs, and start giving us more us more of other classes?

No value would be lost at this point. Last 2 packs featured 6 freaking of them, meanwhile we got only 3 DLC primates in... let me check: 1170 days. (one huge XD).
Thats one per 390 days. Last true monkey was released 659 days ago btw.
Lets hope frontier will show mercy for people with higher expectations than cat number 12 and will send us gift from the heavens this spring (4th April) in form of new monkey. 🙏
Statistics will improve to monkey per 311 days or something like that.
 
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I wouldn't mind 1 (scenery pack) or 2 birds (animal pack) in every pack, habitat or exhibit. We can still use some reptiles (exhibit) but not many: a Chameleon, some lizards and snakes would be enough. I don't think we need more habitat reptiles. When talking about mammals, we definitely need more primates.
 
I would love to see more birds, even if they were only habitat ones.

Tho I have to say it is hard for me to answer the question "how many mammals make up the point where you're satisfied if no more mammals were included?".

My wishlist contains the animals that I want, I dont really separate them into mammals and not mammals in this regards. It would be easy to say for example, 25 more mammals, but if animals from my wishlist were not included in that number, I would still want them to appear, so I cannot really answer that question tbh.
 
For the most part, yeah. I hope the rest of PZ's development includes a sharp increase in the number of habitat birds--look at any zoo's animal list and you'll see multiple species of waterfowl, wading birds, etc. while in PZ we have an extremely limited selection that consists mostly of penguins and ratites. The walkthrough exhibit system isn't great for some larger aviary birds, but it's perfect for things like budgies, lorikeets, and various passerines. Habitat reptiles are in better shape--we could maybe use one African crocodilian (Nile or West African Dwarf), one more large monitor lizard (Asian water), and one or two tortoises (sulcata and red-footed?). Definitely a lot of potential exhibit reptiles, amphibians, and invertebrates but exhibit boxes aren't really a big priority for me at this point.

There are still a lot of mammals I would like to see--roughly an animal pack's worth of monkeys, at least two porcupines (an Old World and a New World), and a few common South American zoo species like a sloth, an ocelot, a coati, and my personal favorite the Patagonian mara. A Tasmanian devil and tree kangaroo also seem pretty much obligatory to wrap up Oceania's mammals.
 
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I really just care about mammals tbh. Reptiles and birds bring a lot of variety and I do think they are super essential, the habitat reptiles can be a bit repetitive (I would like a couple of tortoises not just crocodylians), and the aviary system we have in game is a bit lackluster to me to be used for every flying species. I would be disappointed if we didn't get a more customized system for raptors and other large birds. However, I think even with just terrestrial/wading birds along there is a lot of classic bird species to be added.

My Current List's Composition:
Blackbuck
Black-Headed Spider Monkey
Colombian Red Howler Monkey
Bolivian Gray Titi Monkey
Colobus Monkey
Crested Porcupine
Eastern Black Rhinoceros
Fossa
Golden Lion Tamarin
Goodfellow's Tree Kangaroo
Gray Langur Monkey
Gray-Crowned Crane
Hamadrayas Baboon
Linne's/Hoffman's Two-Toed Sloth
Little Blue Penguin
Pacific Walrus
North Island Brown Kiwi
Radiated Tortoise

Red River Hog
Sichaun Takin
Spectacled Bear
South American Coati
Southern Tamandua
 
Less mammals? No I would also say less carnivores as we really don't need that much more. Just duplicating big cats to get more of them is just a slap in the face
  • Mammals like primates are desperately needed to increase the diversity of collections. I seriously can't just use a mandrill to represent monkeys of an African Rainforest. Sure we got bonobos and chimps aswell but where monke
  • Also other mammals like cattle, antelope etc are needed for certain areas
  • Small habitat reptiles like tortoises. Maybe one or two more crocodilians (an African croc and Chinese Alligator comes to mind)
  • Thinking of birds, much easier to add much more wading and non flying birds. Limit small birds like lorikeet to the WE for now (for the sake of not hindering development elsewhere)
  • Exhibit animals (boxed) need a much better selection especially snakes and general reptiles. Since we have bats, small mammals like naked mole rats are not out of the question
 
The problem is that there's just so much potential for Exhibits, but we're only getting 1 per pack, and it's kinda disappointing because we don't have more.
If I'm not mistaken, don't most zoos have the majority of their roster in terrariums?
 
The problem is that there's just so much potential for Exhibits, but we're only getting 1 per pack, and it's kinda disappointing because we don't have more.
If I'm not mistaken, don't most zoos have the majority of their roster in terrariums?
Yeah most zoos tend to have well over half the collection in terrariums. When I see a zoo online that states they have 5000 animals , there is no way they have 5000 elephants or antelope on display. A simple ant colony in a insect building alone could be 500 or more
 
Short answer: Yes

But this doesn't mean I don't want more mammals or don't understand why mammals are so important for a game like this.

The mammal/non-mammal ratio just seems off by now. We are close to 100 mammals and don't even have 10 birds yet. Had we seen just one bird in every pack we would be at 15 in total, which is still a pretty low number, but much better. And we don't even have a bird for each continent after 3 years.

The first 4 DLCs seemed to have a better mammal/non-mammal ratio (habitat species only).
13 mammals, 2 birds, and 1 reptile - 16 total

Then year 2 luckily introduced many more species, but only the mammals got to feel it.
21 mammals, 1 bird, and 1 reptile. - 23 total. Higher total, fewer non-mammals

Year 3: same total as year 2, the same amount of non-mammals as year 1 (which had a smaller total).
20 mammals, 2 birds, and 1 reptile.

If this year at least could get back to the same ratio as year 1, but with the same total amount of species as the past 2 years, then it would seem fairer to me. Even though there is some catching up to be done.
 
So, question then, but how many reptiles/birds would be necessary for it to feel more balanced?

@SalamAnders, you said we have 100 habitat mammals (I'm rounding), 9 habitat reptiles, 8 habitat birds.

So, how many more birds and how many more reptiles would we need?
 
So, question then, but how many reptiles/birds would be necessary for it to feel more balanced?

@SalamAnders, you said we have 100 habitat mammals (I'm rounding), 9 habitat reptiles, 8 habitat birds.

So, how many more birds and how many more reptiles would we need?
I don't have a clear answer to that, but I do have a bit of a work-in-progress ''system''.

The animal roster should be similar to how an average real zoo presents its animal roster on a zoo map.

The zoos we build in PZ are usually lower on total species than real zoos, especially since we don't have a lot of small species to fill in with. So the bigger species make up a higher percentage of the total animal in a zoo roster than they would in real life.
That is kind of similar to how it is often presented on zoo maps. Most of your big popular species will be visible on the map, while some smaller species will be absent or be put under one species to represent multiple. Though in some cases something like a giraffe could also represent multiple savannah species.
A birdhouse (20+ species maybe) would often be pointed out by one visible bird species on the map. One bird on the map (even if it symbolizes multiple species) equals one bird in the game.

An example. Antwerpen Zoo map (2017 I believe)
zoo-plan-10-2017.jpg

11 Birds
26 Mammals
1 Reptile
3 Fish + 1 Insect (4 exhibit species I guess)
Might have missed a few.

In reality, I am pretty sure Antwerpen has more bird species than mammals (I was there in 2018). Their reptile house (the Komodo Dragon) is also heavy on species.
But the map tells us a different story. If the animal ratio +/- in PZ was similar to how the map is displayed, I think it could work well. Scaled up of course.
This system should be based on multiple zoos from around the world. If you did this with like 10 zoos, I imagine you would end up with a higher average of mammals and reptiles than seen here. Then you can take all those numbers 4 or 5 times to end on a realistic number of total species for PZ.

This is not bulletproof, but I hope it made some kind of sense.
 
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