I'm trying to decide between a Sidewinder vs. Imperial Eagle as a "combat/racing" ship tuned for speed and occasional combat/missions. I'll be putting heavily upgraded weapons on them (overcharged multis on the light hardpoints plus most likely a plasma rail on the Imperal Eagle) but will be focusing on making them as fast as possible while still being useful for combat. Obviously the Imperial Eagle can get more speed than the Sidewinder but isn't as agile. As long as I can get the max boost to the 500-550 range using Enchanced Thrusters + Grade 3 dirty drive tuning I'm not as interested in getting every last ounce of speed out of them and for survivability reasons will probably need to put Military alloys on them. For anyone who has been using either of these ships for speed/combat/racing what have your experiences been?
How/why does it win? Just because the agility is so much better than the Imperial Eagle, or for other reasons?
Just a irrelevant post I guess, but in this role the iCourier is insane. Hull weight is 35t(!), yet it has c3 thrusters. Mine boosts to 566m/s, is sturdy enough to comfortably do high-res and is very agile. Its got g3 dirty drives adn enhanced thrusters. The trick is in getting it light, and that means MC. MCs dont need much power, so you can power the entire ship on a 2A PP, despite having three C2 weapons. MC also need little in PD, so you can cut corners there too (D-rated). With lvl1 booster mods you get to 400+ MJ in shields as well (beating a Clipper with a 7A shield and a modded booster!). I only got two boosters, if you want to sacrifice some speed you can add two more and have almosty 600MJ, betaing a FdL with prismatics. If you can get lightweight mods for the MCs you can easily go above 650m/s. As a bonus it sounds great and the cockpit looks like a jetfighter. Only real downside is that, like all Imperial ships except the iEagle, the hardpoint placement is aesthetically pleasing but functionally crap. You'll need at least two gimbals, only one is appropriate for fixed.
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I had been considering the Courier, as I think it's one of the best-looking ships in the game, but I already have a moderately-modded Vulture with grade 5 overcharged multis and grade 3 dirty drives that can hit 448 boost and I wanted to go in the opposite direction for a change given that I already have a "heavy fighter". I figured that the Sidewinder and Imperial Eagle were the best "light fighters" that I could use while the Courier is more of a "medium fighter" role. Give the much better internal slots of the Courier though it is quite temping as I can make a much better "multipurpose" build than I could ever do with a Sidewinder or Imperial Eagle.
if you Play in VR ist no question: sodewinder! 
that cockjpit is sooo awesome when u actually sit in it! I pimped me one just cause how awesome the ship Looks and feels in the Rift...
that cockjpit is sooo awesome when u actually sit in it! I pimped me one just cause how awesome the ship Looks and feels in the Rift...if you Play in VR ist no question: sodewinder!
What does your Sidewinder do in terms of speed? The build I'm looking at has a low total mass but it will probably be around 52-54 tons with a combat fit so I'm not sure what to expect in terms of speed. I am leaning towards a Sidewinder for nostalgic reasons as I have a soft spot for getting every last bit of performance out of "underdog" ships. I'm not playing with VR yet (graphics card is several years old) but I love the sound of the Sidewinder's engines so that's another factor that is biasing me towards the ship as well. On the other hand the Imperial Eagle has a much better weapons fit and greater speed potential so that makes it a tough choice.
I vote for the iCourier too. I have two of them and they in no way feel like medium fighters. You will never touch you Vulture after you´ve flown a pimped iCourier. Mines do more than 500 m/s and nearly 700 m/s boost. But I use only one gimballed class 1 laser. The pimped iEagle is not as agile. The iCourier is a blast. And it even can carry 16tons ( full cargo will reduce speed quite a bit) ...
The issue here is that other than the speed (which is clearly superior on the Courier) there is a little too much overlap between the Vulture and Courier for me to justify maintaining both ships. Both have excellent firepower, shields and maneuverability and I'm looking to go in the opposite direction with a lighter fighter. Although the Imperial Eagle and Courier are both very similar in total mass with a full combat fit (around 90-92 tons) the Courier's size and internals has always put it firmly in the "medium fighter" category in my mind along with the Viper Mk III. In comparison I've always seen the Sidewinder and Eagle as "light fighters" and the Viper Mk IV and Vulture as "heavy fighters" due to their hardpoints/shields/internals. I suppose the issue here is, how bad is the Imperial Eagle's maneuverability with the combination of Enhanced Thrusters and Grade 3 dirty drive tuning? My Python's agility went up significantly with a Grade 3 tune so if the Imperial Eagle's maneuverability becomes "decent" after the mods then its edge in speed (plus the ability to mount a class 2 plasma railgun) might push it over the top for me vs. the Sidewinder.
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Just tried the Imperial Eagle and Imperial Courier each with the same grade 3 modified enhanced thrusters and the Eagle definitely has an edge in speed. The Eagle can hit 500 boost with a full combat fit (military alloys) or around 485 boost with a planetary vehicle hangar installed. The Courier can only hit around 458 boost with a full combat fit which drops to around 440 with a planetary vehicle hangar. Since I'm doing quite a bit of SRV driving the hangar is pretty important and I also need the combat fit with weapons and military alloys. The Eagle is definitely faster and has a much better roll rate although the internal slots (particularly the tiny fuel tank) are severely limiting in the Eagle and makes it a real pain to fly anywhere more than 3-4 jumps away as it needs to scoop fuel sometimes in only 2 jumps. I'll see how the Courier does for me, at this point it's actually slower than my Vulture which can hit 448 boost vs. 440 boost for the Courier with a similar loadout and the jump ranges are almost identical on both ships. On the other hand I really like the Courier's aesthetics and styling, it reminds me of an elegant Maserati design and the cockpit, acceleration and engine sounds really make you feel like you're flying a high-performance fighter. I've noticed however that the pitch and roll rates are somewhat lower than I had expected so I'll have to test the Courier in combat once I upgrade the weapons.
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A note about iCourrier vs iEagle :
The eagle, while faster will struggle with dirty tuned enhanced engines has its base mass is already 50t, vs 35t for the courrier.
My dirty tuned drives have an optimal mass of ~63 tons, so to keep near it, the iEagle needs to be really striped down, while my
iCourrier can still run arround with enough hardware to have it combat fit (and still get 600 m/s boost speed, and really good shields*)
Keep in mind that for my combat courrier I :
*thx engies
**thermal resist bi-weave + 3*0E resistance enhanced boosters give 700MJ effective shielding vs thermal, vs 350MJ effective shielding before.
All this while cutting weight by 9tons and power use by nearly 3 MW's. moded shields are crazy XD
What I see is that each ton "cost" me ~8 m/s in boost speed. So it adds up quick. e.g. SRV bay => 50m/s lost.
I will conclude that putting a cascade mine launcher + 2 MC/Frags is hillarious in this ship.
The eagle, while faster will struggle with dirty tuned enhanced engines has its base mass is already 50t, vs 35t for the courrier.
My dirty tuned drives have an optimal mass of ~63 tons, so to keep near it, the iEagle needs to be really striped down, while my
iCourrier can still run arround with enough hardware to have it combat fit (and still get 600 m/s boost speed, and really good shields*)
Keep in mind that for my combat courrier I :
- replaced my Mirror armor by the lightweight one, and added a D1 HRP (2 tons).
- replaced my 3*0A boosters by 3*0E resistance enhanced boosters (10.5t => 1.5t)**
- tossed the SCB's out with the hangar
- Capcitor can be reduced to 2A or 3D if no thermals are used.
*thx engies
**thermal resist bi-weave + 3*0E resistance enhanced boosters give 700MJ effective shielding vs thermal, vs 350MJ effective shielding before.
All this while cutting weight by 9tons and power use by nearly 3 MW's. moded shields are crazy XD
What I see is that each ton "cost" me ~8 m/s in boost speed. So it adds up quick. e.g. SRV bay => 50m/s lost.
I will conclude that putting a cascade mine launcher + 2 MC/Frags is hillarious in this ship.
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My Sidewinder has enhanced thrusters and grade 3 dirty drive tuning, and if I remove the auxiliary fuel tank, I get 567 boost.
Go Sidey!
Go Sidey!
A note about iCourrier vs iEagle :
The eagle, while faster will struggle with dirty tuned enhanced engines has its base mass is already 50t, vs 35t for the courrier.
My dirty tuned drives have an optimal mass of ~63 tons, so to keep near it, the iEagle needs to be really striped down, while my
iCourrier can still run arround with enough hardware to have it combat fit (and still get 600 m/s boost speed, and really good shields*)
Keep in mind that for my combat courrier I :
- replaced my Mirror armor by the lightweight one, and added a D1 HRP (2 tons).
- replaced my 3*0A boosters by 3*0E resistance enhanced boosters (10.5t => 1.5t)**
- tossed the SCB's out with the hangar
- Capcitor can be reduced to 2A or 3D if no thermals are used.
*thx engies
**thermal resist bi-weave + 3*0E resistance enhanced boosters give 700MJ effective shielding vs thermal, vs 350MJ effective shielding before.
All this while cutting weight by 9tons and power use by nearly 3 MW's. moded shields are crazy XD
What I see is that each ton "cost" me ~8 m/s in boost speed. So it adds up quick. e.g. SRV bay => 50m/s lost.
I will conclude that putting a cascade mine launcher + 2 MC/Frags is hillarious in this ship.
I have a similar setup/results with my iCourier. I run dirty drive tuning grade 3, 3A thermal resist shield, 2 lightweight MC, 1 PA (that I will be making into efficient target lock breaker), and 3A fuel scoop. No utility slots and once I get to where I'm going I'll drop the fuel tank down to a class 2. Makes my top cruise speed @ 500m/s and boost around 685m/s. Makes for an extremely fun and agile combat ship.
The utility slots can be usefull :
Put 0E boosters in, they weight only 0.5t each, consume little power and give +4% shields. not great, but something. The kicker comes from
making them resistance augmented boosters. 3*lvl3 => ~+21% resist, 3*lvl5 => ~+33% resist. Since you have thermal resistant shields, you get :
+35% base thermal resist from the moded shields. Neat. add in 21% and you are over 50%, and with 33%, you get in the 70% range.
There are diminishing returns, but assuming 3*lvl5 still put you at 60%, you go from 150%*1.00 effective shields to 250%*1.12 = 280% effective shields.
In other words : three meekly 0E boosters can net you an effective +100% additional shield. That is quite awesome for 1.5t and 0.7-0.8 MW TBH.
Ha, I'm not much of a math person, but you've done good job of convincing me of the worth of that extra 1.5 tons of weight. I'll have to start gathering the mats for the upgrades.
This is exactly my impressions about small ships in 2.1 too.
They are extremely fun while i use them just to test how fast i can make them fly, but when i tried to build something practically usefull... too sensitive to mass. And it limits possible loadouts / equipment too much for my liking. Want SRV - -50m/s, want small cargo hold - -50m/s more, and at this point iClipper, which can boost 550 with full heavy combat loadout, is already faster...
I also was unpleasantly surprised when i undocked iCourier with old pre-2.0 loadout (~110T) and it felt more sluggish than corvette. And after checking numbers in outfitting screen i was really surprised - it indeed had worse pitch/roll than corvette... at this point i just gave up and decided to try DBS instead...
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The iCourrier is one of the most mass sensitive ship in the game.
Every ton count, and the effects on speed and agility are quite dramatic if you start doing stuff like adding armor, SCB's, HRP's and a hangar XD
Every ton count, and the effects on speed and agility are quite dramatic if you start doing stuff like adding armor, SCB's, HRP's and a hangar XD
Yeah I've found this to be the case comparing my Courier to my Vulture, I was expecting a similar combat fit would see the Courier doing 30-40 m/s faster than the Vulture, instead with a max roll from my Grade 3 tuning it's actually doing 8 m/s slower than the Vulture. The issue I've found out is due to a combination of the Courier's low mass (106 tons full combat fit) which means a 6 ton SRV hangar is a significant speed penalty and also the extreme sensitivity of the small Enhanced Performance thrusters to weight penalties due to the very low optimal mass which is pushed even lower with the dirty drive tune. My Vulture only has a minimal speed difference adding a hangar so it can still maintain 448 boost because its full combat fit weight is around 400 tons and it uses modified 5A thrusters with a good optimal mass. At this point I'm sort of stuck because I was looking for something faster than my Vulture and yet the Courier is both slower and less maneuverable while the Eagle has such limited range and internals. I'm still enjoying the Courier's styling and engine sounds but for any serious combat I would be brining my Vulture or Python with me. I've really given up on the Imperial Eagle at this point because 500 boost isn't worth all the limitations of the internals and tiny fuel tank.
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Yeah I've found that the only way I can make a "fast" Courier build work is for racing or data delivery missions where I don't plan on doing any combat but that role is far too limiting to be useful. The Imperial Eagle has a similar issue, I can get a boost of 500 out of it with a combat fit but this isn't a high enough speed to really give it a useful combat role and the limited internals make it useless for non-combat tasks.
It is possible to fit a courrier for combat, there just a lot of things you need to toss out. Here is what I use at the moment.
https://coriolis.io/outfit/imperial...80800B42t01010125.Iw1-ADGQ.Aw18UA==?bn=Speedy
The shield boosters are resistance boosted.
- Forget about energy hungry weaponry, stick to kinetic (MC or Frags) and missiles. This allows to play with smaller powerplants and smaller distros.
- Get away from 0A boosters. 0E with resistance will perform better than vanilla 0A, so all good.
- Replace the bulkhead by some HRP (lighter).
- Bi-weave eats less power while recharging faster => smaller PP.
- If you really need to still get down on mass, go for 4t fuel tank.
Gimbaled frags (1 incendiary, 1 corrosive) and one cascade mine launcher makes for hilarious plays.
To be honest, it's more a zippy interceptor / bomber than superiority fighter like the vulture is. Then again, it does 600m/s and is hilliarious fun.
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This. You have to sacrifice durability (to an extent) for speed. The only internals I have is a 3a Shield and a 3a Fuel scoop. I have cargo racks filling the rest (because they weigh nothing when empty). Thermal resist on my shields, and I will look to be getting some 0E resist boosters when I have the mats/rep.
The maneuverability makes up for the lack of staying power, and I can bug out and recharge shields at any time, there's not much that can catch me my cruise speed is faster than most ships boost speed.