Engineers Simple state of chaff in 2.0 / 2.1 question

[jacozilla]

Returning player new to both Horizons and Engineers, googling was giving all old posts so hopefully someone knows reliable current meta re chaff vs turrets

back when I last played, chaff was very effective vs both pve and pvp gimbal weapons, but despite info text suggesting it should - either no use or so minimal degraded turret accuracy that effectively chaff was no good against turrets

which meant that on one hand, players could use turret weapons vs NPCs firing chaff, and given 2.1 NPCs firing lots of chaff, that seems good reason to use turrets on slower ships if this is still true

on other hand, chaff not working against NPC turrets if still same as when i last actively played would mean maybe better off using chaff slot for another item, like shield booster. But don't want to get stuck on what is better item to use in slot side track.

would like to know what is the current meta for chaff vs turrets.

thank you.

 

[h347h]

At least since 1.2 or 1.3 chaff works against turrets. I can at least confirm it works in pve and in pvp against players. I don't even bother with carrying chaff now for pve though. NPCs use enough fixed weapons that chaff helps very little. Shield boosters to increase damage resistance has worked out better for me. PvP it is still a big deal.

 

[CMDR Redcrest]

Can confirm chaff still effective against gimbals. I always thought chaff worked against turrets too as they also track targets..?

 

[Bacalao]

Chaff has worked against turrets since I started playing, but if you're too close it is far less effective. This confuses some people into thinking it doesn't do anything at all. Silly people.

 

[thorn-]

Chaff has worked against turrets since I started playing, but if you're too close it is far less effective.

This is key.

Chaff affects tracking, but it doesn't just shut down the weapon completely. If my ship is close enough to you, it doesn't matter if you're using chaff or not... my gimbaled lasers are still going to fire forward. If you're close enough, 30-60% of them are going to hit you simply because you're in front of me.

 

[jacozilla]

Chaff has worked against turrets since I started playing, but if you're too close it is far less effective. This confuses some people into thinking it doesn't do anything at all. Silly people.

What is silly is to call people silly without qualification and just blanket statement.

especially when in multiple times in past, chaff has been acknowledged to be not working or bugged v turrets (dev acknowledgement here https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=132237 )

Which is why I was asking re current meta since just came back.

Sounds like chaff has been fixed, which is great. Not so great is now debating whether turrets on my own ships worth it given how frequent NPC ships pop chaff combined with their agile moves.

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This is key.

Chaff affects tracking, but it doesn't just shut down the weapon completely. If my ship is close enough to you, it doesn't matter if you're using chaff or not... my gimbaled lasers are still going to fire forward. If you're close enough, 30-60% of them are going to hit you simply because you're in front of me.

For the related consequence then, would you advise players who have bigger slower ships to still use turrets then?

if NPC chaff works vs turrets, but not if at close range, then maybe still worth it to mount turrets on my slower ships. If NPC chaff works too well against turrets though, not sure what load out to use instead of turrets when in slower ships where turn angle makes fixed weapons a bad idea.

 

[h347h]

What is silly is to call people silly without qualification and just blanket statement.

especially when in multiple times in past, chaff has been acknowledged to be not working or bugged v turrets (dev acknowledgement here https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=132237 )

Which is why I was asking re current meta since just came back.

Sounds like chaff has been fixed, which is great. Not so great is now debating whether turrets on my own ships worth it given how frequent NPC ships pop chaff combined with their agile moves.

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For the related consequence then, would you advise players who have bigger slower ships to still use turrets then?

if NPC chaff works vs turrets, but not if at close range, then maybe still worth it to mount turrets on my slower ships. If NPC chaff works too well against turrets though, not sure what load out to use instead of turrets when in slower ships where turn angle makes fixed weapons a bad idea.

Yes, use turrets on larger ships. The tracking changes and damage increase now makes them a higher over all DPM in slot against NPCs for class 1 weapons as a whole. When you can use some with special effects added on top from engineers it is even better. Class 2 is iffy but that depends on the ship. If it has bad class 2 for fixed or gimbaled turrets could be good, Python comes to mind as being the prime candidate for class 2 turrets due to its agility. However class 3 turrets still do not track well so as far as that goes class 3 should at least be fixed or gimbaled. In the case of my Corvette my corrosive round multi cannon turret still hits enough during chaff to keep the debuff on the targeted ships to allow my fixed weaposn to still keep their increased damage.


Efficient pulse scramblers are also IMHO one of the best turret choices as it can stop an agile unshielded opponent in their tracks with a good malfunction.

 

[jacozilla]

Yes, use turrets on larger ships. The tracking changes and damage increase now makes them a higher over all DPM in slot against NPCs for class 1 weapons as a whole. When you can use some with special effects added on top from engineers it is even better. Class 2 is iffy but that depends on the ship. If it has bad class 2 for fixed or gimbaled turrets could be good, Python comes to mind as being the prime candidate for class 2 turrets due to its agility. However class 3 turrets still do not track well so as far as that goes class 3 should at least be fixed or gimbaled. In the case of my Corvette my corrosive round multi cannon turret still hits enough during chaff to keep the debuff on the targeted ships to allow my fixed weaposn to still keep their increased damage.


Efficient pulse scramblers are also IMHO one of the best turret choices as it can stop an agile unshielded opponent in their tracks with a good malfunction.

Ok thanks, will stay with turrets then. I fly mostly Python for combat/multipurpose/eng mat gathering, and anaconda trade/bulk missions. Not enough rank for either of huge new imperial or federal ships yet and all smaller ships I own docked because of eng mat storage.

with NPC buffed, my part fixed, part gimble load out wasn't working so well. Last I played through 1.4, Python was still good enough at aerial maneuvers vs the dumber AI that gimble c3 plus fixed for c2 was ok. But now I notice significantly less 'on nose target' time due to much more agile as well as smarter AI flying

switched to laser pulse turrets on Python c2, and tried the new c3 MC gimble - that seems to work lot better but had wondered about my turret v NPC chaff

on anaconda I went 50-50 gimble and turrets but I'm think I will have to just turret all but the one huge c4. Even with poor c3 turret tracking, I just can't turn the anaconda enough to make anything other than face tanking or mostly turrets as best options for me.

What is the c3 turret tracking off by? Is it slow to lock on, bad aim, or both?

 

[h347h]

Ok thanks, will stay with turrets then. I fly mostly Python for combat/multipurpose/eng mat gathering, and anaconda trade/bulk missions. Not enough rank for either of huge new imperial or federal ships yet and all smaller ships I own docked because of eng mat storage.

with NPC buffed, my part fixed, part gimble load out wasn't working so well. Last I played through 1.4, Python was still good enough at aerial maneuvers vs the dumber AI that gimble c3 plus fixed for c2 was ok. But now I notice significantly less 'on nose target' time due to much more agile as well as smarter AI flying

switched to laser pulse turrets on Python c2, and tried the new c3 MC gimble - that seems to work lot better but had wondered about my turret v NPC chaff

on anaconda I went 50-50 gimble and turrets but I'm think I will have to just turret all but the one huge c4. Even with poor c3 turret tracking, I just can't turn the anaconda enough to make anything other than face tanking or mostly turrets as best options for me.

What is the c3 turret tracking off by? Is it slow to lock on, bad aim, or both?

It is much slower than C2 and C1. So against smaller ships it wont do a lot of good. Asp+ size it will be good enough.

 

[Krieger]

I think there is something strange going on with turrets and chaff.
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My experience mirrors OP's. Since ED 2.0 I find that chaff does nothing against NPC turrets (slightly better against gimbals). I know about the effect of range that's why I did some testing varying range from 200m to 2000m in ED 2.0 (In HazRES against Dangerous/Deadly/Elite Anaconda's me in FAS and FdL). I clearly saw that turrets did not react on chaff: the blue spot on my shields remained rock steady at all distances. I also found that not many players here in the forums had the same experience (just like in this thread). I hesitated for a while, did some more tests (same result) and then filed a bug report. A few players reported the same experience with chaff in that thread.
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After release of 2.1 I did some tests again and while I see a little wobble in the turret's blue spot now, chaff is still not effective. Not even at 1500m. The blue spot on my shield wobbles a bit now but keeps hitting my ship continuously never leaving the outine of my ship. So I remain in doubt. Is it me expecting too much from chaff? (I was happy with it in ED 1.x.) Is there some strange bug that only affects certain players? (How could that be?) ???

 

[Kyle Nix]

My feelings on NPC's able to spam chaff aside..

How come I can't turn off tracking on the gimbals like I can with turrets? Really? That would make me feel a lot better about fighting if i could just toggle them on and off. Are you trying to artificially sell more turrets or what?

And on the issue of turrets- how come I can't stop them firing unless I force locked-forward manual fire mode?

These issues were less to think on when NPC's in small ships were a lot less skilled but now, a bit more of an issue to raise.