Slaying the RNG Beast

[shadragon]

Please read this before voting. I may change your mind.

"God does not play dice with the universe." - Albert Einstein

If you imagine a scale from 'Realistic' to 'Fantasy', Elite is closer to the 'Realistic' side, in my opinion.

I know two engineers. One is a literal rocket scientist and the second deals with nuclear chemistry. When they work, they know the outcome of their activities within 0.05% before they do anything. It's the nature of their work. When building the Hoover Dam or the Golden Gate Bridge, precision and predictability are the mantra of the engineers. They didn't guess or leave things to chance.

With the upcoming Beta there will be a module RNG (Random Number Generator) for determining the outcome of any given weapon or module. I have issues with this for several reasons:

- The player is a spectator. He / she presses a button and RNG determines the outcome. To use a Vegas analogy, the player should be more involved, like playing Poker, instead of just running a slot machine.

- The player should determine what they want as an outcome. They can still have access to the sliding bars, but the player should be able to modify them to see the effects. All the sliders should still be related so if you bump up damage, power consumption and weight would still increase, etc. but by seeing those effects, the player can make a determination based on that feedback instead of RNG. The secondary effects can be left as random, but the initial module / weapon design should have the player sign off on it. That way, they are part of the process and invested in the outcome.

- The Engineers crafting system directly contradicts the already established synthesis game which uses precise amounts of materials for specific end-results. Vanadium + Titanium + Beryllium gives you a consistent end-result. Engineers crafting should follow the same logic if nothing else but for consistency.

Anyway, that's what I think. I'd appreciate your feedback.

 

[Windscreen Smudge]

Please read this before voting. I may change your mind.

"God does not play dice with the universe." - Albert Einstein

The poor bloke had to eat crow when Quantum Mechanics was found to be just as important to the foundation of physics as General Relativity.

So yes. God does play dice with the universe. And no, there is no problem with RNG.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Please no RNG in module/weapon design.

It's ludicrous.

 

[Shanaeri]

I agree. The player should always have a way to get the stats or effects they wish that is within their control.
The way in which the RNG could work is thus.
If you are level 1, you have a chance of getting Level 2 sliders. If you are level 2, you have a chance of getting level 3 sliders etc. Until you reach level 5 in which you will always get level 5 sliders.

Special modules could be the same, up until level 5 where you can pick any you want.

This way the player has an 'out' in terms of the RNG. They can keep spinning the RNG of fortune or get a better reputation to guarantee they get what they want.

Using the sliders, with associated downsides would give variation, balance and hugely reduce the reliance on Skinner box mechanics

As it stands it's a cheap gaming mechanic masquerading as content

 

[Hexcaliber]

Why start another thread with another poll when an existing one about the same subject is just a few topics down. https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=245354 and don't claim you searched.

 

[anikaiful]

To a small extent, yes, RNG is okay. But to dictate anything else than performance thingummywuts it's not okay.

 

[Sash KX]

These engineers are not engineers working for some company and producing a series of something that needs to be identical, these are small custom tuning shops and variations in performance do happen in those cases.

I'm an actual mechanical engineer too and not in the slightest bothered by this system, in fact I'm very excited about some proper depth in customization finally, and don't understand all these complaints.

 

[Conch]

i agree, its somewhat weird that an engineer doesnt know the outcome of his work.. its an engineer!

but on the other hand, im also quite curious to see what they came with and how its gonna work.
so im gonna try to hold back my opinion.

 

[Han Brannigan]

If you imagine a scale from 'Realistic' to 'Fantasy', Elite is closer to the 'Realistic' side, in my opinion.

And that is why RNG should be involved. When working at the cutting edge unforseeable results might happen. Just look at F1 for example. MOST engineers work for things where safety and compliance to standards is paramount. The engineers in Elite don't ( or rather thoes who do build and develop standard modules ). It adds realism it adds fun and it should absolutely be done.

 

[CaptainKremmen]

Please read this before voting. I may change your mind.

"God does not play dice with the universe." - Albert Einstein

If you imagine a scale from 'Realistic' to 'Fantasy', Elite is closer to the 'Realistic' side, in my opinion.

I know two engineers. One is a literal rocket scientist and the second deals with nuclear chemistry. When they work, they know the outcome of their activities within 0.05% before they do anything. It's the nature of their work. When building the Hoover Dam or the Golden Gate Bridge, precision and predictability are the mantra of the engineers. They didn't guess or leave things to chance.

With the upcoming Beta there will be a module RNG (Random Number Generator) for determining the outcome of any given weapon or module. I have issues with this for several reasons:

- The player is a spectator. He / she presses a button and RNG determines the outcome. To use a Vegas analogy, the player should be more involved, like playing Poker, instead of just running a slot machine.

- The player should determine what they want as an outcome. They can still have access to the sliding bars, but the player should be able to modify them to see the effects. All the sliders should still be related so if you bump up damage, power consumption and weight would still increase, etc. but by seeing those effects, the player can make a determination based on that feedback instead of RNG. The secondary effects can be left as random, but the initial module / weapon design should have the player sign off on it. That way, they are part of the process and invested in the outcome.

- The Engineers crafting system directly contradicts the already established synthesis game which uses precise amounts of materials for specific end-results. Vanadium + Titanium + Beryllium gives you a consistent end-result. Engineers crafting should follow the same logic if nothing else but for consistency.

Anyway, that's what I think. I'd appreciate your feedback.

My feedback...

Why start another poll? We just had this.

Poll: RNG Crafting: good or bad? - Dangerous Discussion, 30/4/2016

 

[[DOOK] Droogie]

And that is why RNG should be involved. When working at the cutting edge unforseeable results might happen. Just look at F1 for example. MOST engineers work for things where safety and compliance to standards is paramount. The engineers in Elite don't ( or rather thoes who do build and develop standard modules ). It adds realism it adds fun and it should absolutely be done.

That only makes sense at the beginning. RNG should not play a big role in the long run. Once you achieve a specific result, you should be able to replicate that result reliably.

RNGineers removes skill and knowledge from the equation.

 

[Han Brannigan]

That only makes sense at the beginning. RNG should not play a big role in the long run. Once you achieve a specific result, you should be able to replicate that result reliably.

No because you will never try to replicate anything ( although I actually think blueprints should be allowed ) if you'd want to do that you could work for any of the corps.

 

[Zeta Legion]

And that is why RNG should be involved. When working at the cutting edge unforseeable results might happen. Just look at F1 for example. MOST engineers work for things where safety and compliance to standards is paramount. The engineers in Elite don't ( or rather thoes who do build and develop standard modules ). It adds realism it adds fun and it should absolutely be done.

And part of the scientific method is being able to replicate results, which the Engineers appear to be incapable of.

 

[Hexcaliber]

These engineers are not engineers working for some company and producing a series of something that needs to be identical, these are small custom tuning shops and variations in performance do happen in those cases.

I'm an actual mechanical engineer too and not in the slightest bothered by this system, in fact I'm very excited about some proper depth in customization finally, and don't understand all these complaints.

Nor is it just confined to mechanical engineering, electrical, and chemical too. He clearly doesnt understand the first thing about engineering, its obvious no one complain about the rng system and throwing out flawed rl examples has.

 

[Sir.Tj]

Hi all,

We already have a very similar poll here.

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=245354

Feel free to continue over there.

Thanks.

Closing