Small-detail physics that bother me. (Just a rant).

[ShayNaim]

Okay, so I've been playing Elite: Dangerous for a while now and there are a couple immersion-breaking things for me. I'm posting to see if there is some explanation that will make me feel better or if these things bother other people too.

1) Fake sounds: I know the 'wooshing' sounds that you hear are supposed to be made by the ship because they stop when the canopy gets broken, but why can't I turn them off. I'm not a big fan of the fake sounds, but there doesn't seem to be a way to turn them off. As a pretend space pilot, I want space to sound like space.

2) Maneuvering speed: Why is there a maneuvering speed, how does this make sense? The turning force (I'm thinking about pitch in this instance) comes from separate thrusters in the front so why are they underpowered when I'm moving at a different speed? Additionally, if I'm moving forward at a constant speed, my thrusters must be off, because my acceleration is 0. It shouldn't matter whether I'm floating at 4 m/s or 500 m/s, the turning force from the front thrusters should be the same and, therefore, my pitch rate should be the same. I also looked up maneuvering speed in aircraft (I have a feeling that this is what the game designers were trying to mimic), however this is to do with managing wind resistance on the plane. If a fighter jet corners above maneuvering speed, there is a chance of damage to the aircraft because of the force of the air on the wings. That doesn't apply here, there is no air in space, why can't I turn hard at full speed?

3)Top speed: Why do I have a top speed? The reason all vehicles (flying or otherwise) have a top speed on Earth is because of two things: wind resistance, and friction. Neither of these are acting on a ship flying through the vacuum of space yet even with flight assist off, my ship slows after boosting. What kind of nonsense is this?

Finally, the only acceptable explanation that I have been able to come up with is that these are non-optional, automated ship features. That sucks; if I can get engineers to modify my weapons and ship modules outside of factory specs, why can't I get them to turn off sounds and speed limiting settings. Anyway, rant over.

Are these things that bother anyone else? Have there been better explanations out there for these things?

 

[Deadspin]

In regards to 3 I believe the answers are along the lines of the following:

Top speeds/maneuvering limits were placed to both reign in turret gameplay and because the server/p2p connection, at the time, couldn't handle speeds in excess of a 500-600m/s figure (I don't know the exact number). Obviously that's changed given that we have min-max builds surpassing 800m/s.

In the end I believe it was to pursue a friendlier, more arcade like flight model, so that more people would be able to appreciate the game/make it easier to play.

 

[h347h]

#2 and #3 are a lost cause to try and change. If you are worried about those you might want to look elsewhere. #1 might have some wiggle room but I wouldn't bet on it.

- - - Updated - - -

In regards to 3 I believe the answers are along the lines of the following:

Top speeds/maneuvering limits were placed to both reign in turret gameplay and because the server/p2p connection, at the time, couldn't handle speeds in excess of a 500-600m/s figure (I don't know the exact number). Obviously that's changed given that we have min-max builds surpassing 800m/s.

In the end I believe it was to pursue a friendlier, more arcade like flight model, so that more people would be able to appreciate the game/make it easier to play.

It's easy either way but less enjoyable one particular way. Looking at you SC.

 

[xondk]

Okay, so I've been playing Elite: Dangerous for a while now and there are a couple immersion-breaking things for me. I'm posting to see if there is some explanation that will make me feel better or if these things bother other people too.

1) Fake sounds: I know the 'wooshing' sounds that you hear are supposed to be made by the ship because they stop when the canopy gets broken, but why can't I turn them off. I'm not a big fan of the fake sounds, but there doesn't seem to be a way to turn them off. As a pretend space pilot, I want space to sound like space.

2) Maneuvering speed: Why is there a maneuvering speed, how does this make sense? The turning force (I'm thinking about pitch in this instance) comes from separate thrusters in the front so why are they underpowered when I'm moving at a different speed? Additionally, if I'm moving forward at a constant speed, my thrusters must be off, because my acceleration is 0. It shouldn't matter whether I'm floating at 4 m/s or 500 m/s, the turning force from the front thrusters should be the same and, therefore, my pitch rate should be the same. I also looked up maneuvering speed in aircraft (I have a feeling that this is what the game designers were trying to mimic), however this is to do with managing wind resistance on the plane. If a fighter jet corners above maneuvering speed, there is a chance of damage to the aircraft because of the force of the air on the wings. That doesn't apply here, there is no air in space, why can't I turn hard at full speed?

3)Top speed: Why do I have a top speed? The reason all vehicles (flying or otherwise) have a top speed on Earth is because of two things: wind resistance, and friction. Neither of these are acting on a ship flying through the vacuum of space yet even with flight assist off, my ship slows after boosting. What kind of nonsense is this?

Finally, the only acceptable explanation that I have been able to come up with is that these are non-optional, automated ship features. That sucks; if I can get engineers to modify my weapons and ship modules outside of factory specs, why can't I get them to turn off sounds and speed limiting settings. Anyway, rant over.

Are these things that bother anyone else? Have there been better explanations out there for these things?

1) "wooshing" that is.........very unspecific, when is it happening? when another ship flies by? is that what you are referring to? you need to be a bit more specific then "wooshing" though that said yes, the sounds are generated by ship to increase spatial awareness, modern combat vehicles have begun doing this as well, so in that term, it is correct?

2) The prevailing reason as I understand it is, that engine power is finite, so if you direct more engine power to main thrusters, then the other smaller thrusters get even less engine power then before. Which does make sense?

3) This one is a game play choice, that makes sense, fighting would be near impossible and would be at obscene ranges if there was not a limiting factor?

 

[cmdr_Havalok]

#1 in the year 3303 it has been determined that pilots fly better using multiple senses. As such the your ship generates/simulates the external sounds for you. Out of game you can adjust several volumes in the options, but not specifically ship generated sounds.

#2 and #3 This is the year 3303 you are assuming the thrusters on our ship work like 2017 thrusters. That is not the case. 3303 thrusters provide traditional thrust but also have a gravitational component that moves across hyper-space as if it were atmosphere-like or very similar. Ok the truth is both of these were done for game-play reasons back in beta. Both ways were tested and the current method was deemed to be much, more fun and give the player a a dog-fighting-like experience.

 

[Surprised Brony]

I think suddenly turning at 500m/s would hurt. A lot.

Besides, in a future where spaceflight is as common as a trip to the store, making flight more intuitive and simple would be better than forcing everyone into extreme training for years to learn to pilot their ships. Therefore, I always assumed the ships have built-in safety features to keep flying easy to pick up, like the gravitational explanation above.

 

[Caramel Clown]

Combat with unrestricted speeds and full Newtonian physics would be just horrid. Realism wouldn't make a good game in this case.

 

[Darkfyre99]

Okay, so I've been playing Elite: Dangerous for a while now and there are a couple immersion-breaking things for me. I'm posting to see if there is some explanation that will make me feel better or if these things bother other people too.

1) Fake sounds: I know the 'wooshing' sounds that you hear are supposed to be made by the ship because they stop when the canopy gets broken, but why can't I turn them off. I'm not a big fan of the fake sounds, but there doesn't seem to be a way to turn them off. As a pretend space pilot, I want space to sound like space.

You can turn them off. There's a mute option in the audio menu of settings. Don't know why you'd want to, though. Frontier's audio team has done incredible work on the soundscape of this game. I can actually tell how well I'm threading the needle during a planetary braking maneuver, just from the pitch of my overloaded FSD.

Quite frankly, an artificial soundscape makes more sense to me than pure silence. They provide one more stream of information for you, than what you can get from eyes alone. The more information you get, the better. The idea that ships provide a soundscape for the humans aboard has been around for a long time in science fiction. It was even mentioned in the novelization of Star Wars: A New Hope.

2) Maneuvering speed: Why is there a maneuvering speed, how does this make sense? The turning force (I'm thinking about pitch in this instance) comes from separate thrusters in the front so why are they underpowered when I'm moving at a different speed? Additionally, if I'm moving forward at a constant speed, my thrusters must be off, because my acceleration is 0. It shouldn't matter whether I'm floating at 4 m/s or 500 m/s, the turning force from the front thrusters should be the same and, therefore, my pitch rate should be the same. I also looked up maneuvering speed in aircraft (I have a feeling that this is what the game designers were trying to mimic), however this is to do with managing wind resistance on the plane. If a fighter jet corners above maneuvering speed, there is a chance of damage to the aircraft because of the force of the air on the wings. That doesn't apply here, there is no air in space, why can't I turn hard at full speed?

3)Top speed: Why do I have a top speed? The reason all vehicles (flying or otherwise) have a top speed on Earth is because of two things: wind resistance, and friction. Neither of these are acting on a ship flying through the vacuum of space yet even with flight assist off, my ship slows after boosting. What kind of nonsense is this?

Finally, the only acceptable explanation that I have been able to come up with is that these are non-optional, automated ship features. That sucks; if I can get engineers to modify my weapons and ship modules outside of factory specs, why can't I get them to turn off sounds and speed limiting settings. Anyway, rant over.

Are these things that bother anyone else? Have there been better explanations out there for these things?

Out of character: Frontier didn't like the "turrets in space" feel of pure newtonian combat, plus there is network latency concerns. Which is why flight assist on feels like you're flying an plane that happens to also have RCS thrusters. Flight assist off, on the other hand, is much closer pure newtonai flight. Yaw is nerfed in most ships, though, to avoid that same "turrets in space" feel.

In character: Clearly our ships use the FSD to augment thruster performance, even in "normal" space. That's the only explanation for the insane thrust-to-weight ratio and deltaV our ships get, compared to the pure fusion rockets of the past. It also explains why we have to fit a small FSD to a system patrol ship. The "speed limits" we see, relative to the nearest massive body, are the effects of mass lock.

 

[Robert Maynard]

You might want to read some of this thread - and, specifically, Mike Evans posts therein: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/8179-Why-Newtonian-Dogfights-are-more-interesting

 

[ShayNaim]

xondk: The 'wooshing' (I thought it would be clear enough) includes the sound of a ship passing by, or a planet when you're in SC. I was also talking about the weapon sounds that you can hear during combat, those wouldn't exist naturally because of the vacuum of space. As for your number 2 point, that doesn't quite make sense because it would mean that if I was going very slowly, I would have even more maneuvering power. Also, the thruster power being used to keep the ship at 500 m/s is the same as keeping it at 20 m/s because both require 0 thrust to maintain momentum in space. For number 3, you're absolutely right, trying to actually fight with no top speed would be ridiculous and tedious, but I like things to make logical sense and I want alternative explanations (and more immersive ones) than this makes it more fun.

cmdr_Havalok: I like your explanation for #1 and I'm gonna run with it . I totally understand why, for the game, we needed maximum's and minimums on speed and the system we have now works. That was a good attempt at another explanation though .

TGC Brony TO: Actually, suddenly turning at 500 m/s wouldn't hurt if you did it just with rotation but no change in momentum (like how it works with FA off). The issue I was reaching for a good explanation about was with FA off and no change in ship momentum, 'why can I not rotate as fast at 500 m/s as at 300 m/s?'

Darkfyre99: The mute option isn't quite what I was looking for. See, the sounds that the ship makes, like the thrusters and charging of FSD or response to FA being turned off or on are all totally normal to me. They are travelling through the atmosphere in the ship and should sound just as they do. The enemy ship exploding shouldn't make any sound (have you seen firefly?) because it has to travel through vacuum to get to my ears and it wouldn't reach me because there are no particles to transfer the vibrations like the air on Earth.

I like how you separated the in character and out of character explanations. The in-character one doesn't quite make sense, the ships don't use FSD in 'normal space', the deltaV can be completely explained by very high powered thrusters.

I like the explanation about how the sounds are created by the ship so that pilots can use more senses during flight and combat, not being able to hear the other ship behind you would be a disadvantage for sure. I love in-character explanations of things in how the game works that's what makes the immersion possible for me (I'm a scientist and you can probably imagine how many movies this ruins for me because of this). However, this thread has got me thinking more about how the game-play would actually be if they didn't have things like without all the automated ship controls like limited speed and flight assist.

Here's the explanation I'm gonna role with (warning, the sciencing starts here). I'm flying through 'normal space' there's nothing in my way so I push the throttle to full and just cruise. To get from 0-530m/s currently takes around 8s (total estimate from memory). That puts my acceleration around 66 m/s/s. If I fall asleep at the wheel for 4 hours, I'm now going 1.9 million m/s and it's going to take me 4 hours to get back down to 530 m/s if I flip over and use my main thrusters to slow down. During this time I'll be whipping through space and into whatever star or planet my lack of Jedi reflexes didn't let me avoid.

I'm choosing to believe that there's a safety limiter built into the ship to prevent this just like there's a automatic emergency drop when you get too close to atmosphere or when you're going too close to a planet for orbital cruise. It would be the same for the maneuvering speed. TGC Brony TO, you said that it makes sense that ship makers would try to make flight easier for the average consumer because it's such a common occurrence, I guess that makes sense since ships that could whip around and break pilot's necks may not sell so well lol. For the limited top speed, it makes sense too that this would become the normal to prevent ships flying around at a million kph unable to stop lol. (I've imagined what SC would do with this much momentum and it's not pretty either, if anyone wants to discuss it I'd be happy to ).

 

[Bounder]

Everyone here claiming real flight would be impossible or naff, and that it's better this way, seem to be oblivious to the fact that the previous Elites were based around real flight, and remain vastly better games for it (not in spite of it).

Combat's far more fun, travel is more fun in terms of basic interplanetary flight, incorporating gravity play and natural, chaotic orbital mechanics (not the rigidly forced type in ED), hyperspace is more fun with no poxy countdown timers - hit 'H' and Bang! - you're there. Interdiction is emergent and natural, encouraging tactical play, combat's completely unrestrained and no-holds barred.. Proof here.

ED is just utterly unplayable as-is. Speed limits and bluezones have no place in an Elite title... By playing you're enabling, legitimising and apologising for this nonsense.

I accept there's little else around to scratch the Elite itch at the moment, aside from community mods, but if you must play this rubbish don't be under any illusions - you're kidding yourself if you think being hobbled this way is 'more fun', cuz in reality it just sucks the whole life out of the game...

 

[Robert Maynard]

Everyone here claiming real flight would be impossible or naff, and that it's better this way, seem to be oblivious to the fact that the previous Elites were based around real flight, and remain vastly better games for it (not in spite of it).

The original Elite, of which this is a sequel, had a similar flight model to the game we have - the two previous sequels used the flight model you refer to, however.

 

[Pyrobee]

It's a video game not a siumulator. If those 3 thinbgsa bother you due to lack of realism why doesn't FTL bother you?

 

[Caramel Clown]

Everyone here claiming real flight would be impossible or naff, and that it's better this way, seem to be oblivious to the fact that the previous Elites were based around real flight, and remain vastly better games for it (not in spite of it).

Combat's far more fun, travel is more fun in terms of basic interplanetary flight, incorporating gravity play and natural, chaotic orbital mechanics (not the rigidly forced type in ED), hyperspace is more fun with no poxy countdown timers - hit 'H' and Bang! - you're there. Interdiction is emergent and natural, encouraging tactical play, combat's completely unrestrained and no-holds barred.. Proof here.

ED is just utterly unplayable as-is. Speed limits and bluezones have no place in an Elite title... By playing you're enabling, legitimising and apologising for this nonsense.

I accept there's little else around to scratch the Elite itch at the moment, aside from community mods, but if you must play this rubbish don't be under any illusions - you're kidding yourself if you think being hobbled this way is 'more fun', cuz in reality it just sucks the whole life out of the game...

Frontier: Elite 2 had full Newtonian physics in combat as far as I recall. And generally consensus was - it was horrid. As I've said before - it didn't make game itself, or combat a better game.

 

[Mattaka]

Everyone here claiming real flight would be impossible or naff, and that it's better this way, seem to be oblivious to the fact that the previous Elites were based around real flight, and remain vastly better games for it (not in spite of it).

Combat's far more fun, travel is more fun in terms of basic interplanetary flight, incorporating gravity play and natural, chaotic orbital mechanics (not the rigidly forced type in ED), hyperspace is more fun with no poxy countdown timers - hit 'H' and Bang! - you're there. Interdiction is emergent and natural, encouraging tactical play, combat's completely unrestrained and no-holds barred.. Proof here.

ED is just utterly unplayable as-is. Speed limits and bluezones have no place in an Elite title... By playing you're enabling, legitimising and apologising for this nonsense.

I accept there's little else around to scratch the Elite itch at the moment, aside from community mods, but if you must play this rubbish don't be under any illusions - you're kidding yourself if you think being hobbled this way is 'more fun', cuz in reality it just sucks the whole life out of the game...

I'd say you've gone a little far in saying its unplayable. As it really is a great game to lose yourself in.

I do agree that the original games were way harder to learn and once mastered it was great fun.
I never did get elite status in either the first or second games, but I had a lot of fun trying.

Not having the newtonian flight mechanics was the reason I didn't back the kickstarter and didn't buy into the game until a friend told me about the shonky workaround that is flight assist. It works for me and makes the game a challenge, rather than the console tryhard "flight mechanics" that are current.

Talking of games that didn't live up to their predecessors X-com wasn't a patch on UFO-Enemy unknown and I know the reason why. It was dumbed down for the console kids. I said the same thing about E. Flight has been, combat kinda has from what I can remember and I know docking has.

Docking is a breeze to what it used to be. The first upgrade I bought for my sidey was a docking computer, then I realised all I really needed to do was toggle flight assist on and landing/docking is a breeze.

 

[Bounder]

Frontier: Elite 2 had full Newtonian physics in combat as far as I recall. And generally consensus was - it was horrid. As I've said before - it didn't make game itself, or combat a better game.

What on earth are you talking about - FE2 was the best-selling game of 1993? I've shown proof of how much better the combat is - did you check out any of those vids? Just scan thru this one for example - combat in ED is just dire by comparison. Slow pitching contests in immobilised craft, with a spacey backdrop. No freedom of movement. ED is FE2's nightmare.

There's nothing daunting or complex about spaceflight - thrust left to move left, thrust right to move right, thrust up to move up, forwards to go forwards, etc. etc... while rotating freely in 3 axis (roll, pitch and yaw), same as ED - but without idiotic speed limits. It leads to vastly superior combat, flight tactics and skills development, whereas in ED you're just going thru the motions of a limited set of prescribed motions you're allowed / actually able to undertake.. it's totally restrictive, forced, unnatural and just.. lame.. compared to what we had previously. Maybe you should try it some time.. if you actually like spaceflight and space combat, FFED3D should be right up your street.. give it a shot and you may surprise yourself with how simple and intuitive it is...

 

[SeaFireliv]

Okay, so I've been playing Elite: Dangerous for a while now and there are a couple immersion-breaking things for me. I'm posting to see if there is some explanation that will make me feel better or if these things bother other people too.

1) Fake sounds: I know the 'wooshing' sounds that you hear are supposed to be made by the ship because they stop when the canopy gets broken, but why can't I turn them off. I'm not a big fan of the fake sounds, but there doesn't seem to be a way to turn them off. As a pretend space pilot, I want space to sound like space.

2) Maneuvering speed: Why is there a maneuvering speed, how does this make sense? The turning force (I'm thinking about pitch in this instance) comes from separate thrusters in the front so why are they underpowered when I'm moving at a different speed? Additionally, if I'm moving forward at a constant speed, my thrusters must be off, because my acceleration is 0. It shouldn't matter whether I'm floating at 4 m/s or 500 m/s, the turning force from the front thrusters should be the same and, therefore, my pitch rate should be the same. I also looked up maneuvering speed in aircraft (I have a feeling that this is what the game designers were trying to mimic), however this is to do with managing wind resistance on the plane. If a fighter jet corners above maneuvering speed, there is a chance of damage to the aircraft because of the force of the air on the wings. That doesn't apply here, there is no air in space, why can't I turn hard at full speed?

3)Top speed: Why do I have a top speed? The reason all vehicles (flying or otherwise) have a top speed on Earth is because of two things: wind resistance, and friction. Neither of these are acting on a ship flying through the vacuum of space yet even with flight assist off, my ship slows after boosting. What kind of nonsense is this?

Finally, the only acceptable explanation that I have been able to come up with is that these are non-optional, automated ship features. That sucks; if I can get engineers to modify my weapons and ship modules outside of factory specs, why can't I get them to turn off sounds and speed limiting settings. Anyway, rant over.

Are these things that bother anyone else? Have there been better explanations out there for these things?

I like the explanation for why we hear outside sounds in the ship. Obviously this is a game mechanic excuse as you should be able to turn it off... However, we should consider that being in space for long periods of time with NO sound outside staring at the blackness of space while being alone could`ve driven most people space-insane and so artificial sound was added as standard that cannot be disabled (for your own good) unless the system is broken. Could be a few interesting stories made on that. The psychologically of being in deep space for so long is actually an unknown factor today.

The other stuff don`t bother me so much. They certainly don`t fly like actual aircrat, I can tell you, and the fact that there are so many automatic systems controlling your ship`s flight kind of makes up for the anomonlies in my book...

 

[Bounder]

I'd say you've gone a little far in saying its unplayable. As it really is a great game to lose yourself in.

I do agree that the original games were way harder to learn and once mastered it was great fun.
I never did get elite status in either the first or second games, but I had a lot of fun trying.

Not having the newtonian flight mechanics was the reason I didn't back the kickstarter and didn't buy into the game until a friend told me about the shonky workaround that is flight assist. It works for me and makes the game a challenge, rather than the console tryhard "flight mechanics" that are current.

Talking of games that didn't live up to their predecessors X-com wasn't a patch on UFO-Enemy unknown and I know the reason why. It was dumbed down for the console kids. I said the same thing about E. Flight has been, combat kinda has from what I can remember and I know docking has.

Docking is a breeze to what it used to be. The first upgrade I bought for my sidey was a docking computer, then I realised all I really needed to do was toggle flight assist on and landing/docking is a breeze.

In ED FA-off disables angular damping, which is stupid and lame In FE2/FFE FA-off only disables linear damping, which is logical and great fun.

Anything good about ED is even better in FFED3D.

 

[V'larr]

You might want to read some of this thread - and, specifically, Mike Evans posts therein: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/8179-Why-Newtonian-Dogfights-are-more-interesting

More direct link to Mike Evans posts (there may be more, I guess): https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...re-interesting?p=174656&viewfull=1#post174656

Elite has basically gone the X-wing approach to space combat. There are many other space games out there, if you look, and many of them do try to take the fully unbridled approach you describe, Bounder & OP - though they are also more complex and harder to play, in general. Rogue System and Evochron come to mind?

I'm personally comfortable with the 'feel' of Elite.

 

[Snarfbuckle]

2) Maneuvering speed: Why is there a maneuvering speed, how does this make sense? The turning force (I'm thinking about pitch in this instance) comes from separate thrusters in the front so why are they underpowered when I'm moving at a different speed? Additionally, if I'm moving forward at a constant speed, my thrusters must be off, because my acceleration is 0. It shouldn't matter whether I'm floating at 4 m/s or 500 m/s, the turning force from the front thrusters should be the same and, therefore, my pitch rate should be the same. I also looked up maneuvering speed in aircraft (I have a feeling that this is what the game designers were trying to mimic), however this is to do with managing wind resistance on the plane. If a fighter jet corners above maneuvering speed, there is a chance of damage to the aircraft because of the force of the air on the wings. That doesn't apply here, there is no air in space, why can't I turn hard at full speed?

Maneuvering speed I can get.

- Power is funneled through the main thruster and maneuvering thrusters
- The more you increase THROTTLE the less total thrust is funneled to the maneuvering thrusters.
- At decreased throttle below the blue zone you have too little throttle for the maneuvering thruster and get the same result as with a high throttle setting.

So, in short, we have ONE huge thruster output shared between maneuvering and main thruster and depending on throttle setting the maneuvering thrusters do not get enough power.