Small Mammals As Exhibit Animals: Do You Think It's Possible?

Wanted to move this discussion over here to keep the Exhibit Animals Meta-Wishlist cleaner. My main question for the community is:

Do you think behaviourally active small mammals are technically possible for exhibits from an animation standpoint, even with the new non-stationary looped animations?

I am especially looking forward to replies from forum members who are knowledgeable and experienced on the subject of animation and game development, as the results of the discussion from this thread will affect which small mammal requests will be accepted on the Exhibit Animals Meta-Wishlist thread.

For further information on the question itself, I am quoting myself from the main thread for accessibility:
Now that we have a new exhibit mammal request, I would like to talk about exhibit mammals and how I approach each case as they are submitted.

The requirement for an exhibit mammal to be accepted on this thread is if they meet all the following conditions:

1) Does The Game's Current Exhibits Meet The Minimum Space Requirement?
Couldn’t find anything on Elephant Shrew minimum space requirements on the Internet, but judging by pictures of real zoo enclosures, they can be kept in displays much smaller than the ones in the game, therefore suitable. Even the so-called Giant Elephant Shrews can be kept in exhibits around the size or smaller than 16 m^2.
https://www.zoochat.com/community/m...d-eared-elephant-shrew-exhibit-011218.431049/
https://www.zoochat.com/community/m...-b-r-elephant-shrew-and-harvest-mouse.561604/
https://zooinstitutes.com/exhibits/450.html
2) Can They Be Housed In Glass Exhibits In Real Life?
Yes, they can.
https://www.zoochat.com/community/media/small-mammal-house-elephant-shrew.116387/
https://www.zoochat.com/community/media/bronx-mouse-house-black-rufous-elephant-shrew.561605/
https://www.zoochat.com/community/m...xhibit-at-wilhelma-stuttgart-02-09-10.124437/
https://www.zoochat.com/community/media/black-and-rufous-elephant-shrew-exhibit-2021-06-12.535946/
3) Are Closed Top Glass Exhibits A Requirement In Most Cases?
There are many examples of closed top glass exhibits, but not an absolute necessity.
https://www.zoochat.com/community/m...e-forest-giant-elephant-shrew-exhibit.231620/
https://zooinstitutes.com/exhibits/2542.html
4) Is The Animal Too Active Animation and Behaviourwise For The Current Exhibit System Or Is There A Possible Workaround?
Somewhat of a problem. Elephant Shrews are very active animals overall and spend a lot of time outside burrows, foraging actively. This might pose a problem with looped animations, as the nature of activity in this case is different to the repetitive nature of Turtles swimming against glass or Scarab Beetles rolling dung. Is there a workaround like the cross-section type glass exhibits possible for Naked Mole Rats and Etruscan Shrews? Not really.

Since the Elephant Shrews appear to fail the 4th question, as well as the 3rd question to an extent, I am leaning towards not including them in this iteration of the list, however I’m not entirely against the idea, particularly because I am not an expert on animating and programming, therefore would love to hear what the community has to say on the matter, especially ones that are experienced and knowledgeable on the subject. Flexibility in this case is important, as @random goat's Habitat Animals Meta-Wishlist also doesn’t accept these animals. If both threads exclude Small Mammals, then that leaves no destination for forum users to ask for such an iconic category of animals in zoos. Perhaps these questions will soon be irrelevant as Frontier might reveal where and how these animals can be added to the game, maybe as a third category other than habitat and glass exhibits. However, for now we need to decide as a community on where to include them, so that the real demand for these animals can be properly communicated.

11/10/22 Update: Frontier has answered the long lasting question for us. Exhibit Mammals are possible! I also added the term "non-stationary" to the question in bold, since like other users pointed out idle looped animations were always a thing. So I had to differentiate between stationary and moving.
 
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Frontier said all animals in game can either be fully animated (habitat) or stand still in one place (exhibit). In developement stage of PZ they made decision to make exhibits to pump up animal roster and diversity with reptiles, amphibians and insect. Its all about them not doing much in real life so it would look somehow convincing to the players. Size doesnt matter.

Yes, they are possible, but its Frontier decision to put only non active animals in exhibits for known reason.

Also making third animal category for small mammals would be pointless, because those arent much talked anyway in community. Aviaries should be highest priority right now in that regard.
 
The question isn’t whether it’s technically possible (it certainly is), it’s whether the Devs want to do it from a design perspective…. Probably they won’t (they certainly said they had no plans to do it back at launch) but they could if they felt it was worthwhile and would work well within the game.
 
Yes, they are possible, but its Frontier decision to put only non active animals in exhibits for known reason.
That was the case indeed, at least at launch. However, they later included relatively more active animals like Diamondback Terrapins with looped animations, which is definitely a move in the direction of including more active exhibit animals. For instance I wasn't expecting active Turtles to be added to the exhibit system but they eventually did. Meerkats and Prairie Dogs were also seen as too small for habitats by many forum members, but they were eventually included in the game as habitat animals. My point here is, the developers seem to like to stretch the limits of both enclosure types set at launch, where possible.

Therefore, as the current moderator of the Exhibit Animals Meta-Wishlist, I don't want to be the sole deciding factor shadowing the actual demand for small mammals in lists by not accepting them if they are technically possible from an animation standpoint. I believe communicating the real demand transparently is the most ethical thing to do, but if the developers still don't think they are worthy of adding, then that would be their decision.

For now, I think the main concern of the community should be to communicate the actual demand transparently without putting self-censoring measures in place by not accepting a whole category of animals in any of the Meta-Wishlist types. So as long as very active small mammals are technically possible within the limitations of the current exhibit system without looking too lethargic and behaviorally out of place, then I will be willing to let people include them in their lists.
 
Possible, yes, but I don't know how well they would work out in practice. Frontier has been improving its animals over time but they have limits. I can't imagine having, say, pygmy marmosets that aren't constantly jumping from one branch to another.
 
Possible, yes, but I don't know how well they would work out in practice. Frontier has been improving its animals over time but they have limits. I can't imagine having, say, pygmy marmosets that aren't constantly jumping from one branch to another.
I think it's safe to say Marmosets would be habitat, despite their small size. As far as I know, @random goat accepts them on their list.
 
...they later included relatively more active animals like Diamondback Terrapins with looped animations, which is definitely a move in the direction of including more active exhibit animals.
Having a terrapin bounce around in the water isn't the same level of active behaviour needed for endotermic exhibit animals. It also helps that it's still within the intended reptiles, amphibians, and invertebrates purview.
Meerkats and Prairie Dogs were also seen as too small for habitats by many forum members, but they were eventually included in the game as habitat animals. My point here is, the developers seem to like to stretch the limits of both enclosure types set at launch, where possible.
I don't think it's "[stretching] the limits", and is actually a reinforcement of habitat and exhibit purviews. Mongeese and Prairie dogs requiring the ability to burrow would've also helped them not be in exhibits (though this was omitted in ZT3 and nobody batted an eye there).
For now, I think the main concern of the community should be to communicate the actual demand transparently without putting self-censoring measures in place by not accepting a whole category of animals in any of the Meta-Wishlist types.
I honestly think the opposite. There is a highly observable history of people getting way to ambitious with their ideas for games and it ultimately bites them in the butt, solely because they are unable to rationalise their desires. Judging wishes based on what we know and what the developers have done before will promote critical reflection of what someone wants, and how reasonable it is to see it come to light. Basically, the more realistic the expectations, the less likely you'll be upset if/when they don't happen (and also less likely to blame developers for doing something they never promised).
We have no reason to expect mammals or birds as exhibits, and I think it would only be reasonable to ask for them if/when we know it's an idea that's open to Frontier. The current stance suggests the contrary to this wish, and thus should not be seen as something reasonable.
 
Having a terrapin bounce around in the water isn't the same level of active behaviour needed for endotermic exhibit animals.
This might pose a problem with looped animations, as the nature of activity in this case is different to the repetitive nature of Turtles swimming against glass or Scarab Beetles rolling dung.
This was my exact point and said the same thing when asking the community if animating small endotherms would even be possible for exhibits, which is why I wanted to know what the community thinks, especially ones who are more experienced in the subject of animating and coding.
There is a highly observable history of people getting way to ambitious with their ideas for games and it ultimately bites them in the butt
No need to get overly ambitious or hopeful for a concept that isn't even in the game yet. My aim is to communicate animal wishes as transparently as possible. The only way I think this can be achieved is by including the category in either of the 2 Meta Wishlists.

Therefore I want to know what @random goat thinks on the subject. Sorry for tagging you more than once on this thread, Goat, hope you don't mind.
 
I'm not sure to what extent my opinion is relevant here but I'm happy to share it:
It's often hard to categorize some animals within the umbrella of 'habitat animal', 'exhibit animal', 'aviary animal', etc. because real-life zoos are more complex and variable than what PZ offers as of today. The exhibit system is very limited and building small covered habitats (which could potentially be a workaround to build bigger vivariums) isn't quite possible either. That's why I think we need to be flexible regarding species which are on the edge of both systems because of their size, activity or taxonomy (sloths, marmosets, medium rodents, big turtles, iguanas, etc.).
Since modding offers more flexibility, I often go by what is currently possible in the modding scene; hence why I accept iguanas, aquatic animals, etc. as habitat animals.

Now, that being said, both flying birds and small 'active' mammals as exhibit animals is a bit of a stretch. None of those are currently possible even by modding the game plus the devs 1) have not mentioned anything about the former and 2) have said they don't plan to implement the latter.

Would I be happy to see small mammals as exhibit animals? Absolutely yes.
Would it be reasonable to allow voting for small mammals within the 'exhibit category'? Well, it's either that or putting them in an additional artificial category and starting a new meta-wishlist which most likely won't get any attention. So just go for whatever you feel.
Is there any chance we'll get mammals smaller than the praire dog either as habitat or exhibit animals ? I'd say it's very unlikely.
 
The exhibit system is very limited and building small covered habitats (which could potentially be a workaround to build bigger vivariums) isn't quite possible either. That's why I think we need to be flexible regarding species which are on the edge of both systems because of their size, activity or taxonomy (sloths, marmosets, medium rodents, big turtles, iguanas, etc.).
Since modding offers more flexibility, I often go by what is currently possible in the modding scene; hence why I accept iguanas, aquatic animals, etc. as habitat animals.

Now, that being said, both flying birds and small 'active' mammals as exhibit animals is a bit of a stretch. None of those are currently possible even by modding the game plus the devs 1) have not mentioned anything about the former and 2) have said they don't plan to implement the latter.

Now that you mention it, does anybody (tagging @Leaf Productions) know why there aren't almost any modded exhibit animals? In my uninformed opinion, they look way easier to make than full habitat animals, and also more needed to "complete" the game because each pack only give us 1 against 4-7 habitat animals. So maybe they are much more difficult to make than it seems, and that's why both Frontier and the modders focus so much on habitat animals... And maybe that explains why small mammals will never be on exhibits.
 
That was the case indeed, at least at launch. However, they later included relatively more active animals like Diamondback Terrapins with looped animations, which is definitely a move in the direction of including more active exhibit animals. For instance I wasn't expecting active Turtles to be added to the exhibit system but they eventually did. Meerkats and Prairie Dogs were also seen as too small for habitats by many forum members, but they were eventually included in the game as habitat animals. My point here is, the developers seem to like to stretch the limits of both enclosure types set at launch, where possible.

All in all they still use the same rules as they did at launch.

Exhibit boxes are more about conveying animals realistically with a limited amount of animations rather than about conveying inactive animals. The benefit of looped animations is that they don't require a complex behavior system at all, but are simply limited to being essentially animated scenery, just one that has some more interactivity than other scenery. It's important to keep in mind that all animals in the exhibit boxes have looped animations. Some just move around more, other just sit and breath. But all of them are that and nothing more. From a technical standpoint, there's no major difference between the terrapin and other exhibit animals.

The fact that small "inactive" animals like small reptiles, amphibians and insects fall in the exhibit box category is therefor not surprising. They are animals that in zoos don't tend to move around much, only occasionally you can see them move but 80% of the time you as a guest see them they remain still. So that's why they fit perfectly within the looped animation box system that exhibits are, with a limited amount of animations you can still get a realistic representation of the animal.

And that's why larger reptiles, which in zoos tend to move more often than their smaller counterparts, are not put in exhibit boxes but are in larger habitats as well. And the same logic again applies to smaller mammals. The whole benefit of the box system falls flat when you need to add so many looped animations to realistically convey a small really active animal, so I can see why Frontier doesn't do that and why they stick with that decision. Because at the end of the day, developers also have their own view on the direction they want to see the game go in.

On top of that, Frontier seems to prefer the customization factor that habitats bring. We can see it in many, many many of their decisions. They could have gone for prefab shelters only, but gave us the option to make all of those ourselves. They could have gone for prefab climbing structures, but allowed us to build it ourselves. Heck, they even went as far as allowing us to build our own fences. And many more examples of this can be given. So where they can give us animals in customizable habitats, they will ( looking at Meerkats and Prairie dogs).

The aforementioned reason is also why I think that if we get birds, they won't come in exhibits. Not only would we have had them by now (as, after all, looped animations are a hell of a lot easier than the other mechanics like diving and digging we got so far), but it just doesn't fit with their overall approach to habitat design in the game.

So I agree with @Mjmannella here. It's a balancing act when it comes to expressing your wishes to a developer. On one hand, you are less limited and can think outside the box, but on the other hand you need to also take into account the decisions and the direction the developers have decided to go in. You have a little grey area, and that's where you operate, to quote the great Tony Stark. If you stick to that, your wishes become more approachable and you're much more likely to actually see them come into fruition.

Overall, I think as @random goat said, the chances of us getting smaller active mammals than a meerkat or a prairie dog is unlikely. So I'd say it's much better to let the meta wishlists remain in the realms of what is possible and what we know Frontier has decided upon. There's wiggle room, but not much, and I'd personally respect that. It's a game of give and take, and if you give a little, your wishes are much more likely to be considered.
 
@Iben you have pretty much summarized what I personally think on the subject of active Endotherms for exhibits, which includes Small Birds. I had never been convinced they would ever make it into the exhibit system, and all these comments by fellow community members seem to enforce this opinion.

On the other hand, I don't feel like a single person managing any of the Meta-Wishlists should be the sole authority in deciding what people should ask for from the developers, let it be overly ambitious or not. I would never ask for those animals as exhibit animals myself, unless Frontier proves me wrong, but at the same time I don't feel like a moderator of a Meta-Wishlist should have all the authority in deciding how ambitious people's wishes should be. For this reason I wanted to ask the community what they think, and until now nobody has managed to convince me active endotherms could be potential exhibit animals.

It appears that, until that happens, I will have to continue rejecting such submissions and perhaps add a second spoiler for rejected species like random goat does. If someone would like to create a specific Meta-Wishlist for animals that do not fall in either category for them to be represented, then be it.

It's important to keep in mind that all animals in the exhibit boxes have looped animations.
What I had meant by looped animations was anything outside of idle animations. But you are right, they are all looped, even if idle.
And that's why larger reptiles, which in zoos tend to move more often than their smaller counterparts, are not put in exhibit boxes but are in larger habitats as well. And the same logic again applies to smaller mammals.
This is probably the only part I couldn't agree with. As it is my area of expertise I can safely comment on it. It is a matter of species in question rather than size, that determines the level of activity. It also depends on the setup you give the animal which helps determine its level of activity. For instance, one of the largest Freshwater Turtles, the Alligator Snapping Turtle, is also one of the most lethargic animals you can find in a zoo. Same thing applies to the Giant Salamanders. Both Giant Salamanders and Alligator Snapping Turtles will spend more time standing still than their smaller relatives. Of course giving them a more enriching enclosure will encourage more activity. Then there are other species that will remain very active even in the most boring of setups. A good example to this would be Terrapins and Sliders. Even when they don't have much space to move around, they might constantly swim against the glass as if they were on a treadmill.
 
Wanted to move this discussion over here to keep the Exhibit Animals Meta-Wishlist cleaner. My main question for the community is:

Do you think behaviourally active small mammals are technically possible for exhibits from an animation standpoint, even with the new looped animations?

I am especially looking forward to replies from forum members who are knowledgeable and experienced on the subject of animation and game development, as the results of the discussion from this thread will affect which small mammal requests will be accepted on the Exhibit Animals Meta-Wishlist thread.

For further information on the question itself, I am quoting myself from the main thread for accessibility:
Also other Exhibit ones like these were yet to be in that game. Yellow anacondas' the only non-venomous snake. Chameleons and mantis weren't there. Small fish like clownfish and piranhas could be there too.
 
I'm pretty sure that several small mammals can only be done as exhibit animals in order to work.

The Naked Mole Rat, for example, is one that a LOT of zoos have on display in what are exhibits and pretty much need that in order for people to actually see them
 
Now that you mention it, does anybody (tagging @Leaf Productions) know why there aren't almost any modded exhibit animals? In my uninformed opinion, they look way easier to make than full habitat animals, and also more needed to "complete" the game because each pack only give us 1 against 4-7 habitat animals. So maybe they are much more difficult to make than it seems, and that's why both Frontier and the modders focus so much on habitat animals... And maybe that explains why small mammals will never be on exhibits.
unfortunately it’s a lot tougher, which i know seems surprising. it’s certainly possible but the reward gets outweighed by the struggle. maybe some day
 
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