Smuggling difficulties - needs more DANGER

[GrumpyMinerSmuggles]

yeah, let's see how long this takes til it gets hidden in that freaking thread again.


assassination missions, starting out in your starter sidewinder, against vultures, pythons, wings, anacondas... are HARD.

as they should be.

I know how to fly. Therefore, in an Eagle, I was able to complete my first assassination mission which was a Python with two Vulture escorts. A Pirate lord.

It took well over an hour to complete.


There's a catch though, in Elite Dangerous, I don't want to be a combat pilot. I've honestly had my fill of combat. Now, flying itself, I absolutely adore. I'm obsessed, ask anyone who knows me.

I love A->B trading. Finding trade routes. Testing trade routes. Like for example, where I'm based, a Clipper in her optimised route will out-profit per hour a T9. YEP. That happens. It's amazing what one jump and 403m/s can do.

But what's the ultimate rush? Isinona's way of smuggling into a station, afraid the station's guns would open up on him at any moment.
Smuggling with a CONSEQUENCE.
Smuggling with a RISK.

And yeah, I, like many other hard-core smugglers, have my favorite ship. Fully kitted out. Nerf the credits all you want. Just, let those bulletin missions exist, please.

and, if only 1% of the Commanders out there, can complete that 9million credit mission? Then you're doing it right.

as I read somewhere, reading through various threads on smuggling:
A Smuggler is never caught. If you're scanned, your just a henchmen stooge that doesn't know how to disappear.
-
and the CONSEQUENCES of GETTING CAUGHT should be severe.

my original post that was rudely hidden in the massive "Smuggling Thread" -

Saw something interesting that I think proves how broken smuggling has always been, and how Sothis and long range smuggling was exploited -

I've done numerous tests.
The bigger the ship, the further away a viper ai cop can see you and scan you.

The warmer you are without silent running, the sooner a viper ai cop can scan you.

So, it all depends on the ship and the pilot, for their part.

And risks vs reward and actual game-changing consequences on FDEV's part.

But this is something I KNOW people will despise.

The sheeple
Those with delusions of grandeur and don't have the tenacity, determination, and will to strive for that which can seem insurmountable.

The game has an incredibly steep initial learning curve.

But after one gets past that, it's easy enough to avoid combat and enjoy trading and mining and making a decent blue-collar income while being an upstanding citizen.

What about the smugglers?

How are people in today's world and society treated when they try to smuggle in heroin or cocaine.

I can't speak for other countries, but in mine, I shoot out their engines with a 50cal and take their happy backsides to jail.

They're part of the criminal element


So...
How does flying into a coriolis.io starport in anything larger than an Asp, full of illicit goods, getting scanned, and receiving a paltry fine with barely any other consequences "working as intended".

Because I believe THIS is what ruined Sothis and long range smuggling and has plagued smuggling since the get go.

Here are FACTS about gameplay mechanics that every stealth pvp player and true smuggler already knows:

Smaller ships are harder to see visually, requiring much closer visual LOS on target to get a scan or target lock.
- like as in 300m for a Courier vs 1.5km distant for a Clipper.

Cold running ships don't have a good heat signature to be picked up long range
-courier at standard combat loadout with 75% powerplant used with weapons stowed at 65% heat shows up at 2km.
- same courier built for smuggling with all non-essential systems down (thrusters and sensors, one heat sink launcher only on) running at 29.6% power and 22% heat - 1.35km

I basically ran my two builds of courier, and after 50 scans each found the mean of distance when scanned.


Silent running with a combo of the above two equals a near invisible ship.
- as long as the Viper wasn't facing me, I got to within 150m of it. One time I accidentally even hit one.
-Facing me, when my courier weighed 100t laden, it was 200m.

Now you need a crackshot pilot, who can skim the surface of a station, hide in gravity wells, know how to be uncatchable in supercruisr, and understand more than just basic navigation, and a paranoid twitch from constantly checking the scanners

And you have a perfect smuggling ship and pilot.

Working "as intended" as far as being hard to detect.

Byt what about smuggling?
This all would be "working as intended too"
IF there were actual consequences too.

I'm pretty sure when "smugglers" started accruing bounties and losing their Anacondas and pythons... they'd either stop smuggling, or learn to fly a smaller a ship!

Scans outside of 10 km from ANY station= failed mission and a bounty equal to the payout if not more.
Scans in front of stations = DEATH.
NOT fines, NOT bounties.

Then people would stop using stoopid ships, stacking missions, filling their cargo holds.


You'd have couriers, diamondbacks, vipers, cobras, adders and sidewinders have an actual, productive role outside of a few of those in combat, and "beginner ships".

But

I know.

"We can't have that!"

"Anaconda is the end-game ship" and all that right?

Look, smuggling has been "temporarily changed"

So cool.

I've waited this long past initial beta for mining to make over 20,000cr/t/hr...

I can wait til 1.5 for smuggling to be fixed.

But this time fixed for real.

I want 5+million cr missions
I want the high chance of FAILING those missions if I don't so my part, up to and including losing my ship.
I want consequences
I want positive rep exponentially higher for the sub-faction that issues the job
I want sub-factions that are Imperial wanting me to smuggle in weapons to an anarchist system to help overthrow that system - in writing - in the bulletin board. I mean it's not like there's voice-acting or movies or live action to make or code. Just text.

I want 99% of the players of Elite to FAIL these kinds of missions.
I want a steep learning curve that makes flight assist off look EASY.

No more "navigate by fastest route" - COPS should know this route and be blockading at every star!

No more Pythons "sneaking in"
Or Anacondas and Clippers just "boosting in" without a big brass pair, insane amount of luck, and SKILL!
Because yes! I want to smuggle in my Clipper lol. But that should be the opposite of EASY.

And if this kind of gameplay makes Dark Souls look easy, GOOD!

That means we won't have 2500 asp's in Sothis in 24 hours anymore!

...

Or at least, we won't have those same 2500 Asps completing their missions.


Picking an assassination mission in a stock sidewinder is suicide.

Why can't picking a high paying smuggling job be any different?


Why can't smuggling be the same?

I want only maybe 1% of the smugglers to actually be able to pull off the 12 million credit job.

I want not just trade rank, but smuggling stats, reputations, and connections to matter to ever even see a 12 million credit job.

I also would like FDEV to come out and say what's actually supposed to be "working as intended"

Or quite simply, someone who has been devoutly loyal to Frontier, won't be purchasing Horizons.

There are things BROKEN in the base game.

FIX those or ADMIT it's "working as intended" and Anacondas, FDLS, Clippers, FAS and Pythons are all there is to this game.

It's one big grind to nothing unless you grind more in powerplay.

ADMIT to that
ADMIT it's nothing like the previous Elite games or any other game by Frontier.

That it does have an actual "end-game" set in stone.

And everything else, be it the number of ships, the factions, the background sim, exploration, all of it is just fluff.

Or make things work, the way combat works for ALD and ZH followers, the way trading and mining now works.

Either it's an open sandbox where you can be whoever you want and fly whichever ship you desire and get good gameplay...

Or its NOT.

And the Anaconda truly is the end-game ship, and no social modules, planetary landings, more ships, nor crafting will chage that.

 

[SirSuperDeath]

VOUCH FOR OP (But we need more nerf talk!!!!)

 

[Stealth Gamer92]

Beautiful read, I already only use the Diamondback Explorer as my Smuggler(though since the nerf I have had to resort to combat to make enough cr to keep building up my Gunship) and never get caught so I hope they start rewarding me for that and pinishing those other ship's for being biger and just leting themselve's get scaned because of how pathetic the fine is.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

It would be good to have a game mechanic where the bigger is better mantra for ships doesn't apply. It then becomes: how big a ship are you willing to fly to compromise your signature.

 

[GrumpyMinerSmuggles]

It would be good to have a game mechanic where the bigger is better mantra for ships doesn't apply. It then becomes: how big a ship are you willing to fly to compromise your signature.

In theory, that's how Elite, especially with smuggling and to an extent, even combat does work.

In combat, I feel safer in my iEagle then almost anything else, even my FDL. She's just do hard to hit in the first place.

For scanning, this is what I've found running 1 ton of battle weapons in each ship, 50 times.

All ships were in silent running
All ships were below 10% heat at the time of their scans
All ships were showing their topside profile to an AI Cop Viper.

All tests are also further defended by PvP experiences by me and others in cobras, vultures, and DBS.

All results are the mean average for each ship, from the 50 times.

Sidewinder - 75m
Hauler - 125m
Adder - 90m
Imperial Courier - 90m
Eagle - 100m
Viper - 110m
Cobra - 115m
DBS - 60m
DBX - 65m
Asp - 175m
Clipper - 245m
T-6 - 125m
T-7 - 195m

What's interesting is the hauler. It's lighter than most but showed up sooner apparently. This was then further tested with a player.
He saw my DBS at only like 45m
But the hauler came up at 75m

These show a reason to fly a smaller ship smuggling.

IF

Smuggling had a greater RISK to give a reason not to fly the larger ships

 

[CMDR Hagglebeard]

I love you OP, that's perfect! I'm down.

 

[GrumpyMinerSmuggles]

We can only hope and try to be heard.

Combat is difficult
Finding trade routes without help is difficult

Why can't long range hauling missions
And especially smuggling

 

[Stealth Gamer92]

And especially smuggling

Mainly Cause the people who own Conda's would throw a fit like a 2 year old because their uber ship couldn't rake in money better than every other ship in the game anymore. It'd hurt especially bad that those small ship's(the most inferior in their eye's) could effectively do a job their super ship stood no chance of doing.

 

[GrumpyMinerSmuggles]

Mainly Cause the people who own Conda's would throw a fit like a 2 year old because their uber ship couldn't rake in money better than every other ship in the game anymore. It'd hurt especially bad that those small ship's(the most inferior in their eye's) could effectively do a job their super ship stood no chance of doing.

And to me,

That's exactly WHY this should happen.

I grow tired of "Anaconda = invincible endgame"

If it were like one guy said in the group I play with, he wouldn't have to fear something as small as an iEagle would he?

Or in the case of smuggling, the scanners and the fuzz.

Elite is a sandbox that happens to be online. I don't see it remotely like a traditional MMO. Instead I see it as the old Elites, Freelancer, Sid Meyer's Pirates, just with the ability to play with friends.

My cobra already, right now, makes way more credits per ton per hour than any Anaconda could possibly hope to achieve. That was just running rares and bulletin board missions.

I think the "Anaconda = dabest rawr" crowd needs to come to grips there really is no "progression ladder" and more expensive doesn't always mean more capable.

100% agree with you.

I wish the genuine "spirit of the game" would be more obvious.

Why else spend effort making "lower grade ships" since 1.2 til now?

Me? I adore my cobra and adder still, my iEagle, and my Clipper.

Lol. Can't quite afford all the upgrades to my FDL just yet.

 

[Stealth Gamer92]

And to me,

That's exactly WHY this should happen.

I grow tired of "Anaconda = invincible endgame"

If it were like one guy said in the group I play with, he wouldn't have to fear something as small as an iEagle would he?

Or in the case of smuggling, the scanners and the fuzz.

Elite is a sandbox that happens to be online. I don't see it remotely like a traditional MMO. Instead I see it as the old Elites, Freelancer, Sid Meyer's Pirates, just with the ability to play with friends.

My cobra already, right now, makes way more credits per ton per hour than any Anaconda could possibly hope to achieve. That was just running rares and bulletin board missions.

I think the "Anaconda = dabest rawr" crowd needs to come to grips there really is no "progression ladder" and more expensive doesn't always mean more capable.

100% agree with you.

I wish the genuine "spirit of the game" would be more obvious.

Why else spend effort making "lower grade ships" since 1.2 til now?

Me? I adore my cobra and adder still, my iEagle, and my Clipper.

Lol. Can't quite afford all the upgrades to my FDL just yet.

I fly my Gunship mostly since the smuggling nerf and once I can max it out and buy a trade Python those two and my Diamondback Smuggler are all I'll ever need. Any other ship after those will be just bought for a change of pace maybe once every few month's, and I never plan to buy a Conda(too big I prefer my Medium & Small ship's).

 

[Ryan P Bodfirst]

Yes totally agree that smuggling is not much of a risk:

• Smuggling to outposts is basically free money - there's never any security there
• If we're caught trying to smuggle outside a station then the police should fine you and electronically tag the cargo at least (and perhaps in some system attack you) - so you can't sell it in that station or system (even on the black market as it will get tracked so too risky for them to buy). Any mission to that station is then a fail. Perhaps you can only sell security tagged cargo at unsanctioned outposts - it would give them more of a purpose.
• I'd also like to see a different treatment of illicit stolen cargo that's not an illegal commodity vs illegal cargo (slaves for example) - which should be more severely dealt with I think - and I'd be a wanted criminal.
• Making it harder means that you could increase the amount payed.
• after all if there's little risk there's not much of a thrill in completing the mission - and the definition of something hard is that not everyone succeeds....

 

[nosscar]

I noticed yesterday, that whilst the big 5-8m jobs are very rare now, i can still make one up myself, there was a lot of 300-900k jobs on the board, all going to the same system, even the same station, i took all these, but had to hurry as i was over 200ly away and some had a timer of only 20mins or so, but i made it and got over 8m from them all. A lot of them needed no cargo space either.

 

[GrumpyMinerSmuggles]

Yes totally agree that smuggling is not much of a risk:

• Smuggling to outposts is basically free money - there's never any security there
• If we're caught trying to smuggle outside a station then the police should fine you and electronically tag the cargo at least (and perhaps in some system attack you) - so you can't sell it in that station or system (even on the black market as it will get tracked so too risky for them to buy). Any mission to that station is then a fail. Perhaps you can only sell security tagged cargo at unsanctioned outposts - it would give them more of a purpose.
• I'd also like to see a different treatment of illicit stolen cargo that's not an illegal commodity vs illegal cargo (slaves for example) - which should be more severely dealt with I think - and I'd be a wanted criminal.
• Making it harder means that you could increase the amount payed.
• after all if there's little risk there's not much of a thrill in completing the mission - and the definition of something hard is that not everyone succeeds....

+1 - those points are spot on as far as I'm concerned. Exactly the type of risk I'm thinking about.

I noticed yesterday, that whilst the big 5-8m jobs are very rare now, i can still make one up myself, there was a lot of 300-900k jobs on the board, all going to the same system, even the same station, i took all these, but had to hurry as i was over 200ly away and some had a timer of only 20mins or so, but i made it and got over 8m from them all. A lot of them needed no cargo space either.

I'm not talking about the cash. My first smuggling job in my Sidewinder easily paid for the basic ship and rudimentary upgrades to my Adder. Going from Adder to Cobra was also rather easy. Far as I'm concerned anything past a Cobra/DBS/Viper/Adder is just for personal tastes or exploiting the game rather than actually playing as a smuggler.

IF and when smuggling missions make their comeback - I'm hoping this thread is perused by the FDEV people's that have the ability to make changes. I want greater risks for the higher paying jobs of course, but I also want greater risk in general.

"needing no cargo space" =/= smuggling at all. Those are courier missions. We're talking about entirely different things at that point. Honestly please vacate the conversation if you aren't going to be adding anything remotely constructive to it.

 

[Stealth Gamer92]

I noticed yesterday, that whilst the big 5-8m jobs are very rare now, i can still make one up myself, there was a lot of 300-900k jobs on the board, all going to the same system, even the same station, i took all these, but had to hurry as i was over 200ly away and some had a timer of only 20mins or so, but i made it and got over 8m from them all. A lot of them needed no cargo space either.

Good for you, I can't make 1 mil. with 100t woth of them.

 

[GrumpyMinerSmuggles]

Good for you, I can't make 1 mil. with 100t woth of them.

Can we just not even go there and just focus on things we'd like improved gameplay wise like I originally intended?

1) 100t and smuggling should not be in the same sentence regularly.

2) again I could care less about pay because right now it's ZERO. The missions for the most part don't even exist anymore.

I'd rather focus on the future and maybe, just maybe someone in FDEV will see this thread and read good, constructive advice and criticism. NOT just another "wah my money maker is gone" kind of thread.

Stealth, I'm not attacking you personally either. It's more a "don't feed the trolls" kind of thing.

 

[Stealth Gamer92]

1) 100t and smuggling should not be in the same sentence regularly.

2) again I could care less about pay because right now it's ZERO. The missions for the most part don't even exist anymore.

Stealth, I'm not attacking you personally either. It's more a "don't feed the trolls" kind of thing.

1.) Was over time, my hold's not big enough to do it all at once in a DBX.
.
2.) Agreed,
.
And good point, fair enough.

 

[Southbound Pachyderm]

Great suggestions. I was smuggling a lot for a couple days right before the nerf in my Dropship. It became too easy and I went back to mining.

You should have a chance to fly into a station and no one even attempts to scan you, then when you go to the bulletin to collect, you are met with a Federal agent who gives you an ultimatum to surrender all your cargo and pay a fine substantially larger than the worth of its contents, OR make a run for it with a large bounty on your head. It was a sting. It happens in real life.

Trying not to get caught is very exciting.

 

[Stealth Gamer92]

Great suggestions. I was smuggling a lot for a couple days right before the nerf in my Dropship. It became too easy and I went back to mining.

You should have a chance to fly into a station and no one even attempts to scan you, then when you go to the bulletin to collect, you are met with a Federal agent who gives you an ultimatum to surrender all your cargo and pay a fine substantially larger than the worth of its contents, OR make a run for it with a large bounty on your head. It was a sting. It happens in real life.

Trying not to get caught is very exciting.

Something like that would be better if NPC's gave us a contract's and not a public bulletin board where the good may be illegal in the very station the job is posted. Then we could maybe find reliable contact's and build network's we can use and share with friend's, of course with constant chance said contact may get cought and either disapear or help with a sting against us depending on how much money we made or lost him before he was cought.