Social Mechanics - It's time to tell Frontier HOW we want it improved.

Arsen Cross · Feb 4, 2015

TL;DR: This thread is intended to further the social INTERACTION mechanics within Elite: Dangerous through suggesting and compiling suggestions for tools for player use in-game.

Greetings Commanders,

I'm sure we all have complaints about the social mechanics, or rather a lack thereof. I've seen many complaints about the lack of any ability for us to reliably interact with each other. Instead of complaining we need to start sending the team at Frontier some ideas to work with to improve the mechanics so they can give us the tools that we want and need. I'm going to start us off with what I see as the underlying problems, follow it up with a few ideas that I have for tools that would help resolve the issues, and conclude with several links to other threads, articles and pieces of information reinforcing why this needs to be addressed by Frontier. I will update each section as the discussion within this thread (and notate in the change log at the bottom) continues to allow the development team and other players interested in the topic to see the progress of the discussion. My hope is that a high level of organization and participation within the community with minimal effort on part of the development team will help motivate them to push changes for the games social interaction out as fast as humanly possible.

Before I begin with the meat of this post, this is not about instancing. This is about tools to communicate and interact with others. FD is working on improving instancing as they already know it's a big issue. That horse has been beaten and FD is turning its remains into the much needed glue that lets pilots get together in space. In the meantime we need to give them direction on where we want the rest of the social mechanics to go.

Problems we are facing as players... (The Problems)

The existing restrictions on communication are inhibiting.
This problem is perhaps the biggest problem. Communicating with other players in the game with which you are not already friends in requires you to find them in the game first, target them, and send a text communication. If you want to continue communicating with them you need to either stay in the same instance or friend each other. Staying in the same instance often requires you to stop what you are doing. Adding an individual to your friends list allows you to communicate with each other regardless of location, but only within the same system (from my experience).

Getting to your friends in space is complex, not intuitive and often does not work properly.
Fleet, wing or squad mechanics are a common request on these forums. I believe that is likely in the hopes that those type of mechanics would add ways to get to your friends in space that are a lot more reliable than wakes. Either way though it's exceedingly difficult to join your friends in space, and even when you are in the same instances it's virtually impossible to join that friend that's been mining in that ring for the last half hour and still has another hours worth of cargo left. At this point joining them actually requires them to stop what they are doing, you to meet up in supercruise and then wake follow each other into the same instance. Something like that isn't as easy/possible to do if you are trying to join a group member who is engaged in combat and you weren't present for the initial wakes created from an interdiction.

Non-consensual PVP in Open-Play is 100% avoidable.
This can be a bit more of a touchy issue however as it stands when you make the choice to play in Open you are opening yourself up to being interacted with by others, positive or negative. I like the current mechanics for interdicting a target and don't believe they need to be changed. Actually getting to a target is not a problem. However mass locking a target with smaller ships can be extremely difficult. To make matters worse, if you do mass lock a target and are better at pursuing them than they are at fleeing they currently have the option to simply close the game and instantly disappear from space, completely negating the point (point=social interaction) of Open Play using a mechanic that is NOT an intended part of game play.

Finding players open to personalized interaction is difficult.
Currently in order to find another player you don't already know who is open to player to player interaction you need to either randomly message people or wait for someone to message you. There isn't any way to search for or easily identify players open to social interaction.

Methods that can be used to help alleviate the problems... (Potential Solutions)

In this section potential solutions/suggestions to resolve each of the core issues will be outlined underneath each core issues header.

The existing restrictions on communication are inhibiting.

Possible Resolutions:

Add a /tell like system similar to most MMO's. (May not be neccessary with improved "recent" contact functionality).
Allow text/voice communication with friends regardless how far they are in the game.
Retain "recent" contacts until logout or until the player chooses to remove them from the recent contacts list. Allow communication to recent contacts regardless of distance.
Make incoming communications immediately save as "recent", this would enable travel transitions without losing contact.
Allow scrolling within the chat window.
Add a toggle within the chat window to make it larger for in-depth chat conversations/reviewing chat logs.
Added 02/04@07:16 CST Add friends/wingmates location (system and station) to the existing UI element to eliminate the need to get a friends system location from the escape menu, which can break immersion and possibly cause VR users to fumble for the keyboard if they don't have escape bound to to their peripherials via macro.

Getting to your friends in space is complex, not intuitive and often does not work properly.

Possible Resolutions:

Add a new sub-tab to Contacts (Friends HUD?) on the left HUD that list all friends/wing mates in the system, regardless of if they are at a station, in supercruise or normal space. More details in spoiler. This can be a HUGE improvement to playing with your friends.

When you select a friend/wingmate from this screen the functionality would be to target that friend if they are in the area with you be it supercruise, normal space or while docked. If you are in supercruise and the friend is at a station/beacon/always available navigation marker (regardless if docked or in space) it targets the applicable beacon. If they are in normalspace (but not at a targetable beacon) it targets a "Ally Signal" created just for your use. (People can still follow you in). If they are at any other beacon/celestial object normally seen as destinations in the system, that UI element has a color or badge indicator designating that you have an ally/friend at that location. Updated 02/04@07:17 CST
Add the ability to form parties/wings with your friends.
While related to instancing, it should be GUARANTEED that you always join the same instance as wingmate and as close to guaranteed as possible for friends.
Friends should be color coded separately on the regular contacts HUD and always have their names indicated.
Added 02/04@09:15 CST Allow supercruise formations/linked FSD's for group travel.

Non-consensual PVP in Open-Play is 100% avoidable.

Possible Resolutions:

In Open Play only Make in-space saving require the ship to be in normal space, stationary for 60-90 seconds and have weapons retracted. Failure to exit the game this way in space in Open Play will result in you being sent to the last station you docked at.
Add a module that lets you artificially multiply your ships mass at the cost of heat generation, maneuverability (if the artificial mass goes over your thruster mass limit), ammo or some other mechanic that creates usage limitations. The multiplication effect should be stronger on low mass ships and weaker on high mass ships. This should effectively lengthen the time interdicted players/npcs are vulnerable to pirates, bounty hunters and other forced player interactions without completely preventing escape. Balance must be done carefully with this.

Finding players open to personalized interaction is difficult.

Possible Resolutions:

Allow players to tag themselves in the right HUD settings as a roleplayer (Similar to what SWG did back in the day.) and add that information to the target details.
Allow players to tag themselves as capable/incapable or willing/unwilling to accept voice communications.

References reinforcing our position that these changes are needed... (The Evidence)

In conclusion I ask that everyone please take the time to take this thread seriously and contribute. I have fallen madly in love with Elite: Dangerous and I want to see the potential of this game become fully realized and we need true social interaction tools in order for the game to truly succeed.

Thank you,
Aidan Patrick

Thread Changelog

02/04@09:15 CST Allow supercruise formations/linked FSD's for group travel. added to Getting to your friends in space is complex, not intuitive and often does not work properly. (Potential Solutions)
02/04@07:18 CST Clarified "Friends" functionality & added an idea to: The existing restrictions on communication are inhibiting. (Potential Solutions)
02/04@07:00 CST Thread initially posted.

Arsen Cross · Feb 4, 2015

I understand that Wings is announced are announced to go into Beta testing in March. However it is important that we get Fontier as much constructive feedback as possible to ensure that they have enough ideas to run with that they can implement the best possible version of social interaction within that time frame.

Hell Razor5543 · Feb 4, 2015

I am not going to vote, as I have only started playing on-lines games recently (well, one; Elite Dangerous), and so I cannot say whether there are problems or not with the communications in the game. However, while FD is moving things along we (the players) do not know how many developers there are working for FD within the ED team, or what they are working on, or how complex the tasks are. My cousin is a professional programmer, and he has explained to me in slight detail how complex software development can be. For example, a communications program 'module' might work perfectly in the labs, in alpha and beta testing, get released, and only then might a conflict be encountered when it encounters a specific combination of hardware and software items.

Kyle_Brennan · Feb 4, 2015

Way to go, Aidan

Aidan, props for taking the time to actually put together a well-constructed post on this. Especially with your Problem - Possible Solution - Evidence approach, I really appreciate that. We can certainly argue about the details and the possible solutions, but Id' say in terms of putting together suggestions and feedback this should be the way to go.

Personally I agree we need a solid player interaction / communication within the game in order for its "Multiplayer" to actually work out. Right now everyone is very much floating around in their own bubble, that could certainly be improved. At the same time, like Hellrazor pointed out, getting those things to run properly takes time and effort, and I'd rather wait instead of having interaction systems that need constant fixing or are insufficient. Really looking the the "wings" implementation, being able to team up with your friends or other commanders should already help a lot.

Cheers!

Arsen Cross · Feb 4, 2015

Hell Razor5543 said:
I am not going to vote, as I have only started playing on-lines games recently (well, one; Elite Dangerous), and so I cannot say whether there are problems or not with the communications in the game. However, while FD is moving things along we (the players) do not know how many developers there are working for FD within the ED team, or what they are working on, or how complex the tasks are. My cousin is a professional programmer, and he has explained to me in slight detail how complex software development can be. For example, a communications program 'module' might work perfectly in the labs, in alpha and beta testing, get released, and only then might a conflict be encountered when it encounters a specific combination of hardware and software items.

I tinker with and write a bit of code quite a lot and have a strong appreciation for development. The complexity of a project like Elite is quite high so I do appreciate those facts in this thread. With that said however, as someone who has developed several very small pieces of software for my companies use I can say that user feedback is by far the most important thing when you are developing a piece of software for many different people to use. I can guarantee you that Frontier developers frequent this sub-forum for that very reason. It's why it exists and it's also why they had a publicly available alpha and beta phase.

It's our job as community members to give them those feedback and ideas we want to see implemented. We just need to do it effectively. This thread is aimed to change the "social mechanics suck" complaints from negative criticism, into constructive feedback they can use to better the game we all want to play.

Kyle_Brennan said:
Aidan, props for taking the time to actually put together a well-constructed post on this. Especially with your Problem - Possible Solution - Evidence approach, I really appreciate that. We can certainly argue about the details and the possible solutions, but Id' say in terms of putting together suggestions and feedback this should be the way to go.

Personally I agree we need a solid player interaction / communication within the game in order for its "Multiplayer" to actually work out. Right now everyone is very much floating around in their own bubble, that could certainly be improved. At the same time, like Hellrazor pointed out, getting those things to run properly takes time and effort, ...

Thank you for the positive feedback Kyle. I agree with you fully and wholeheartedly. However I'd be remiss if I didn't admit that I'm a little fearful in regards to how wings will actually be implemented as I can find little to no details from the development team on what exactly being in a wing does for you.

Under potential solutions I proposed an actual mechanic for how to join your friends in wings by allowing you to target your friends locations from a sub-tab in the contacts menu regardless of where either of you are in system. I'm hoping that they either have this, or something just as simple to use to find your friends in the system you are in.

I've seen several suggestions from players on linked FSD's and formations, which if included would be a top notch step in the right direction, but it needs a companion ability to get to your wingmates and friends easily.

Let's run a gameplay scenario where my "friends" contact menu exists within the game:

You and a bunch of friends are all tooling around doing your own things. Some bounty hunting, others trading. You are all within a few jumps of each other. You happen to be piloting a Asp Explorer kitted out for heavy duty bounty hunting and are armed to the teeth ready for battle. One of your buddies two systems over running trade just got interdicted by a pirate and is calling out for assistance. He's aligning for an escape trajectory in the system between the two of you, it's a pre-planned rendezvous point. He makes the jump. He exits hyperspace. Unfortunately the pirate after you buddy had a wake scanner and jumps into the system hot on his tail and successfully triggers an interdiction and drops him out of warp BEFORE you exit hyperspace. Your friend is now mass locked by the pirate and will not have time to escape.

You don't have either of their wakes to use. You've only just exited hyperspace. It took you a minute to disengage from whatever you were doing. Because your friend wasn't in supercruise when you jumped in you aren't in his instance. You go to your contacts sub-tab of Friends and target your buddies location and make haste for his location. You drop out of supercruise at close range. You're closer than if you had used his original wake exit because your ships are communicating your locations to each other. Now, you engage the pirate with an opportunity you would not have had otherwise.

Kyle_Brennan said:
... and I'd rather wait instead of having interaction systems that need constant fixing or are insufficient. Really looking the the "wings" implementation, being able to team up with your friends or other commanders should already help a lot

The tool is invaluable in the above scenario because we all know that the instancing programming will never be absolutely perfect, and enabling the ability to target a friend/wing mates location could be set to actually 100% guarantee you arrive in their instance. It's this kind of capability that I want us as a community to inspire in the wings feature. If they don't get these desires brought to their attention before they drop wings... We could wind up with that half baked system of continuous broken changes you also want to avoid.

Hell Razor5543 · Feb 4, 2015

I completely understand the need for feedback. If developers are not informed of problems encountered out of the development area they cannot know of these problems. However, as I have not previously played on-line, I cannot tell the difference between a known limitation and an actual problem, hence why I am not voting.

Janichsan · Feb 4, 2015

I mostly agree with what you wrote, but would like to comment on two things:

Aidan Patrick said:
In Open Play only Make in-space saving require the ship to be in normal space, stationary for 60-90 seconds and have weapons retracted. Failure to exit the game this way in space in Open Play will result in you being sent to the last station you docked at.

If you were plagued with semi-frequent random disconnects like some players (including me), you would see where the problems lie with that solution.

Aidan Patrick said:
I understand that Wings is announced are announced to go into Beta testing in March. However it is important that we get Fontier as much constructive feedback as possible to ensure that they have enough ideas to run with that they can implement the best possible version of social interaction within that time frame.

Do you honestly think FD hasn't got a very good idea of what they plan to include in a patch that is supposed to enter beta in about a month?

The feature list for the "Wings" update has probably been decided on weeks ago and they are already working on implementing their plans.

Arsen Cross · Feb 4, 2015

Janichsan said:
If you were plagued with semi-frequent random disconnects like some players (including me), you would see where the problems lie with that solution.

That is a down side and not something I can claim to know how to fix effectively. You can of course have other options, like living the ship in space for an equivalent amount of time to the logout, but you have the same issue if that random disconnect happens during combat. This reason is likely why this type of feature wasn't included in the first place. I personally would still like to see something added in that removes any incentive from combat logging while being shot at. The very first time I interdicted a player (to bounty scan, not even to pirate, and I told him that while interdicting) the player logged off the second I caught up with him in normal space. Pretty negative experience in my opinion.

Janichsan said:
Do you honestly think FD hasn't got a very good idea of what they plan to include in a patch that is supposed to enter beta in about a month? The feature list for the "Wings" update has probably been decided on weeks ago and they are already working on implementing their plans.

Nope. I don't think that lol. Hell, just by looking at the 1.1 patch notes I can tell they are very intelligent with their changes to the game. They are also intelligent with design. Whether or not a developer has already started work means nothing when it comes to feedback. It's always helpful. You never know, someone may respond to this thread with an idea they have and a developer could see that, realize it is in line with other code they are developing for the social mechanics and tweak them to make the system better than it already is. Feedback during development on specific feature sets in my opinion is arguably still an effective time to provide feedback on those feature sets. Especially considering the features in question here are slated for beta in march which means they will be asking for player feedback to make adjustments then. So why should we be mum about it now?

I don't really want to sit here and reply to people explaining why feedback is good or why it isn't too late. It's a silly conversation to have. You won't find me on here throwing a tantrum if things aren't implemented the way I want once they release wings. At most you'll see me providing constructive feedback in the locations designated for feedback on those features.

Janichsan · Feb 4, 2015

Aidan Patrick said:
Feedback during development on specific feature sets in my opinion is arguably still an effective time to provide feedback on those feature sets. Especially considering the features in question here are slated for beta in march which means they will be asking for player feedback to make adjustments then. So why should we be mum about it now?

I don't really want to sit here and reply to people explaining why feedback is good or why it isn't too late. It's a silly conversation to have. You won't find me on here throwing a tantrum if things aren't implemented the way I want once they release wings. At most you'll see me providing constructive feedback in the locations designated for feedback on those features.

I never said feedback is bad or undesired, I'm just saying it's unrealistic to expect that anything you suggest now and that is not already worked on will be implemented by the time the Wings update is released or even just enters beta in four weeks. That doesn't mean these missing features couldn't turn up later.

That said, let me just repeat that I hope that the features you suggested mostly will be in the 1.2 patch.

Arsen Cross · Feb 5, 2015

Janichsan said:
...I'm just saying it's unrealistic to expect that anything you suggest now and that is not already worked on will be implemented by the time the Wings update is released or even just enters beta in four weeks....

Expect, no. Hope, yes. I wasn't going for a a vibe of expectation, but a vibe of influence. Also, bump.

Agony_Aunt · Feb 5, 2015

Oh god... inception spoiler tags!

By the way, you missed an option in your poll. Everything is fine the way it is. Of course, i am being a little facetious here, but your thread title is dripping with entitlement so couldn't resist. HOW is capitalized, the word "we" indicating that we know best. Ugh.

Having said all that, yes, i think most will agree social mechanics are lacking, no problems with the position in general.

What can FD do about this. They can work on improving it... which they are doing.

What is most important for me? Sorting out comms. Having to use third party tools to talk to in-game friends is annoying.

Beyond that, i'll wait and see what FD have up their sleeves. Its not just social tools that need improving, but plenty of other areas as well. I'm content to let FD choose their priorities, as long as they keep delivering fixes and new content.

Social Mechanics - It's time to tell Frontier HOW we want it improved.

Do you feel that the social INTERACTION tools available to players in Elite need improvement?

Yes. This should be Frontier's TOP development priority.

Yes, but how quickly it is implimented is irrelevent to me.

No, I find the social mechanics sufficient in their current form.

Arsen Cross

Arsen Cross

Hell Razor5543

Kyle_Brennan

Arsen Cross

Hell Razor5543

Janichsan

Arsen Cross

Janichsan

Arsen Cross

Agony_Aunt