Socioeconomics of Jameson Memorial & Founders World?

[Fray]

As the title says. I'm curious about the culture and economy of both, and I wonder if this is another thing where what's in game cannot sensibly or cogently be reconciled with whatever lore exists for either.

In the lore, is making Elite in a discipline supposed to be hard? In game it requires absolutely no skill - not even triple Elite; it simply demands time. In the lore, is it supposed to represent 'the elite'? I remember reading one of the lore beacons allude to that, but I'm not sure how supported that is in other ED canon.

If pilots make up on a tiny percentage of humanity's population, and it broadly stands to reason that they are usually exceptionally well off financially (relatively speaking. most established pilots would make more in one trade/combat sortie or exploration stint than most people make in a year, or sometimes an entire lifetime), then shouldn't the culture of Founders and Jameson be quite opulent/hi-end, albeit diversely so (people of all cultures, careers, and political stripes)? Regardless of whether it requires a lot of time, skill, or both, very established pilots would be shaping the entire economy with a lot of creds to burn.

In game terms Jameson's obviously a very easy/lazy pick for a base and home system, but I think I'd rather find something else - something fully Federation, and with a more interesting station interior than Jameson, as it is impressively dull... I feel - given the above speculation - it really deserves a visual upgrade, which would surely fit the speculative lore as well as make it more distinctive in terms of leaving and docking (unique station control dialogue would help, too).

So yeah, any feedback or thoughts would be interesting.

 

[Sapyx]

Founders World was introduced in ED; there is no "old lore" for it. All we have that is canonical, really, is what you can read in the system description.

I would imagine that, from a lore perspective, it normally takes years to become Elite. Just as it normally takes years to become King/Admiral in the superpower auxiliary navies, or to earn a billion credits. Because most normal human beings don't spend all their money on improving their spaceship and buying more spaceships; they do other things with their money, like have parties with their friends, buy an apartment in the capital, or a villa estate on an agri planet, or an entire planet out on the frontier.

A main contributor to this is our inability to do anything in-game other than earn ratings, rankings and credits. We don't have the ability to decide we've got enough money for now, take a break from spaceship-flying, buy a nice house on some planet somewhere, settle down for a while, maybe raise a family - which I imagine the large majority of spaceship-flyers would eventually want to do in lore. Of cours,e the lure of the black will always bring many pilots out of such a sedentary lifestyle.

We do know the Shinrarta Dezhra star system has a population of 85.21 million. What we don't know is what proportion of that population is actually Elite-rated. As far as I am aware, NPCs flying in Shinrarta Dezhra aren't all Elite-rated, so it's only a small proportion of the inhabitants that are actually Elite-rated. They are presumably descendants of Elite-rated pilots who emigrated to SD, settled down, got married, had kids; there may also have been a local population present on the planet before the PF acquired it. I assume the PF doesn't automatically grant Elite status to anyone who happens to be born in SD.

Let's assume only 10 million of those 85.21 million people are actual Elite pilots, current or retired. Let's also assume there are another 10 million Elite-rated pilots living out there in the galaxy, either on board their ships, serving in the Navies or living on planets. That's 20 million Elite pilots in the galaxy. The total galactic population is 6.6 trillion, so the percentage of the galactic population that are Elite-rated pilots is one in 330,000 people, or 0.0003%. That's pretty Elite.

But yes, the Elite will be the ruling elite (for want of a better word) in SD. Everyone who is Elite has probably earned a bucketload of moolah; the only pathway to Elite where you stay poor is combat-via-piracy-and-murder.

 

[Fray]

Founders World was introduced in ED; there is no "old lore" for it. All we have that is canonical, really, is what you can read in the system description.

Which is a reason why Elite's so frustrating from an RP POV. It is both a highly detailed, but ultimately quite empty world that they've kinda-sorta built in pieces.

I had a candidate for my character's homeworld, but some player faction's wacky paragraph of 'lore' potentially nullified what I'd written. And with no way of reaching whoever wrote it, I've no real way of putting it in any broader context.

I feel this is such an awful way to introduce and establish 'lore' in any worldbuidling. I digress...

I would imagine that, from a lore perspective, it normally takes years to become Elite. Just as it normally takes years to become King/Admiral in the superpower auxiliary navies, or to earn a billion credits. Because most normal human beings don't spend all their money on improving their spaceship and buying more spaceships; they do other things with their money, like have parties with their friends, buy an apartment in the capital, or a villa estate on an agri planet, or an entire planet out on the frontier.

There's a bit of an issue with that, though, because Elite has a set calendar, and both the characters and governments within it and the players both interact with it.

And I'd say the workload and workrate that Elite ultimately 'depicts' is quite modest; most players don't actually spend much time engaging in activities, but what they do tends to pay well (relative to time expended). In that sense it seems a reasonable expression of ostensibly very well off individuals engaging in a job they do not necessarily need to survive.

I concede that this isn't a cut and dried issue, though. If I leave my ship in orbit around a given world a few K out from the Sol bubble, what's she doing all that time? Exoplanetary/planetary observation? Her taxes? ; -)

Still, I'd say for most players it's safe to say their characters have plenty of time to do other things whilst we play other games or simply don't boot our machines up. The game calendar and clocks still tick by, so our creations can engage with whatever we deem them to in that period.

A main contributor to this is our inability to do anything in-game other than earn ratings, rankings and credits. We don't have the ability to decide we've got enough money for now, take a break from spaceship-flying, buy a nice house on some planet somewhere, settle down for a while, maybe raise a family - which I imagine the large majority of spaceship-flyers would eventually want to do in lore. Of cours,e the lure of the black will always bring many pilots out of such a sedentary lifestyle.

It doesn't resolve that issue, but increasingly I'm of the mind that the currency the players deal with is an economy insulated from regional currencies, i.e. credits can be seen to be a universal system for pilots and inter-system trade, which is then converted when pilots go groundside.

It stands to reason my character rents apartment space on Jameson, but also owns or rents decent quality apartments on the Earthlike world in the system she made her home before making Elite. For me that's where her personal ties would be, versus the rapid comings and goings of the Founders World or Jameson.

Perhaps the combined value of various throwaway/temp modules could be written off as rent or property acquisition... ; -) Or, perhaps well off pilots simply borrow locally against the assets they own. Perhaps pilots - especially those who've made Elite and accrued substantial value in various forms - have specific legal entitlement to certain financial plans pertaining to acquisitions made on stations and worlds, meaning that if a pilot actually dies, portions of their assets go to covering costs of legal processes as well as resolving any standing debt.

We do know the Shinrarta Dezhra star system has a population of 85.21 million. What we don't know is what proportion of that population is actually Elite-rated. As far as I am aware, NPCs flying in Shinrarta Dezhra aren't all Elite-rated, so it's only a small proportion of the inhabitants that are actually Elite-rated. They are presumably descendants of Elite-rated pilots who emigrated to SD, settled down, got married, had kids; there may also have been a local population present on the planet before the PF acquired it. I assume the PF doesn't automatically grant Elite status to anyone who happens to be born in SD.

Hm, never really thought about that.

I always just assumed the non-Elite pilots coming and going from Jameson were basic trade and business deals, but aren't permit locks tied to FSD navigation idents? Or haven't they cleared that detail up?

If jump drives quite literally cannot make a jump into a given system without authentication, then, yeah, how the heck are those lower ranked ships getting in and out. If there are exemptions, why can't the player access them? And what exemptions would result in a frikkin' Competent or Novice Hauler being cleared for access...

Not exactly a popular reference, but in Mass Effect Andromeda the angaran homeworld is ostensibly impossible to fully settle on, meaning individuals are able to live there for just a number of years. More of a symbolic, extensive pilgrimage. Perhaps the Founders World is as strict with who gets to live there and for how long.

I'm not sure it makes sense for descendants of Elite pilots to remain in the system, or at least on the Founders World. Very quickly you'd have much more civvies than pilots, generating a rather skewed economy and culture of non-flyers in a world and system dedicated to piloting starships. And if a son or daughter of an Elite pilot wants to fly, then are they ejected from the system until they make an Elite rank? Because I'm fairly sure with a majority populace of civvies, there'd be political pressure enough to do away with that notion, ergo completely undermining the slivers of lore in-game.

 

[Vasious]

To attempt to reconcile Lore with Gameplay

Well, one could assume only those whom are Elite are allow to own property on Founders world, but there would be a good ratio of people who live and work there that do all the menial jobs Elite Pilots would not want to do.

Why can they have the permit and we cannot

Our licence is that of an Independent Pilot so we are no beholden to any one location or faction.

The Harmless Adder in Founders world is given the permit as they only work for their faction only travelling where and when told, no independence.

Just as we see Red Plant Taxis and Paine Pleasure tours even in Permit systems, as Red Plant Taxis & Paine Pleasure tours as corporate entities have been granted the permit to provide a service and that extends to their vessels.

But as Independent Pilot, we have to earn the permit and the privilege of bring your own star ship, as we have no other organisation to get access for us.

After all if you were born on Founders world, became a Cmdr with your Pilots Federal Independent Pilots licence, you may not be able to fly your own ship back until you are Elite, but if you wanted to visit the family, you could book cabin with Red Plant Taxis

 

[insanephoton]

Out of lore, there is the fact that all kickstarter backers (£5 pledge and above) were given access to Shinrata from the get go. This kind of implies that permits could be issued for reasons other than reaching Elite. Further to that players that pledged to Founder level had the option of starting their career at Jameson Memorial.

As for 'harmless' NPCs there are two possibilities. The first is that their permits are issued for some other reason. The second is that they are Elite in trade or exploration.

 

[Fray]

To attempt to reconcile Lore with Gameplay / But as Independent Pilot, we have to earn the permit and the privilege of bring your own star ship, as we have no other organisation to get access for us.

After all if you were born on Founders world, became a Cmdr with your Pilots Federal Independent Pilots licence, you may not be able to fly your own ship back until you are Elite, but if you wanted to visit the family, you could book cabin with Red Plant Taxis

So far I think any solution is a very square peg bashed into a very round hole, like so many things in Elite's lore.

The game says people are allowed to retire there, and so relatively quickly you'd have a fundamental disparity between people who are pilots (or ex-Elite pilots), their progeny, and then the fairly substantial service sector/s you'd need to oversee the basic functionality of a working economy and political body (for over 80 million people, which is about the same as Germany and Iran). The active pilots would also be, for the most part, a very unstable presence for the economy, given they'd spend the vast majority of their time out of the system, let alone off-world.

It'd be interesting to know exactly when the Founders World was settled. The Pilots Federation was founded in 2805, making it around five hundred years old. How long has the system permit been in effect? Did the PF help terraform it? How fast is terroforming in Elite lore? One assumes there was no grand exodus, or forced exodus, of those who initially settled the world, and it stands to reason some of the earliest colonists and descendents of the terraformers would've hung around.

Oh, and I think the notion that the Founders World's location is a mystery is absurd. Keeping something like that out of formal records and leaks would be utterly impossible, so depending on exactly how permit locks function, permit breakers with hacked systems or hacked jump drives would be finding their ways into the system, if not necessarily onto Jameson or down to the Founders.

Out of lore, there is the fact that all kickstarter backers (£5 pledge and above) were given access to Shinrata from the get go. This kind of implies that permits could be issued for reasons other than reaching Elite. Further to that players that pledged to Founder level had the option of starting their career at Jameson Memorial.

The game alludes to "secretive methods", and the Shinrarta Dezra wiki page seems to connect the two, re Kickstarter. Perhaps Braben or someone else actually referenced that.

Like a lot of Elite's lore it seems frustratingly hand-wavy.

As for 'harmless' NPCs there are two possibilities. The first is that their permits are issued for some other reason. The second is that they are Elite in trade or exploration.

Both are feasible, although I'd still like official clarification on stuff like this.