Elite / Frontier Some news on Elite 4 (and the Outsider)

you have never heard of it? its one of the top ps3 sites, i am not a ps3 gamer, but even i have come across this quite often...
 
still its nice to see that david braben is continuing to talk about its release, and that its not being swept under the carpet as it were. as a 360 owner with a pretty poor pc which can barely play football manager now its gone all high tech and 3D i'm really pleased it being planned for the consoles too. if it is a mmo (which i really hope it wont be!) x-box live is pretty good :)
 
I'm more than a bit worried about the console release.
Usually, for a PC user, a game being developed on the consoles spells 'dumbing down' - partially due to controller limitations, partially due to console market consisting largely of dreaded 'casuals'.

I'd prefer non-sucky E4.
 

Sir.Tj

The Moderator who shall not be Blamed....
Volunteer Moderator
News sems to be filtering out a bit, seems as if things may be starting to happen at last!
 
Usually, for a PC user, a game being developed on the consoles spells 'dumbing down'.

Dat's fightin' tawk in ma 360 lovin' household :D

Seriously though, I've got a powerful pc but it's my Xbox360 I use for games. If Elite IV comes out for both PC and XBox I'd get the Xbox version.
 
Dat's fightin' tawk in ma 360 lovin' household :D

Seriously though, I've got a powerful pc but it's my Xbox360 I use for games. If Elite IV comes out for both PC and XBox I'd get the Xbox version.
What if PC version is modable or has more versatile and powerful interface?


Also - Deus Ex and Elder Scrolls are good examples of the series ruined by the transition to consoles as their primary platforms, while current state of gaming pretty much says what needs to be said about general trends.
 
It is easy - you are fans and so rule #1 applies: Thou shall buy all possible editions in all possible languages - including the £10.000.000,00 special edition supplied in a box of purest gold and comes with a meteor fragment (*).

Anyway, Frontier will always do what it can to supply the best interface for each platform we release on. I think a case in point actually is Thrillville: Off the Rails where we made good use of the capabilities of the Wii even though it was kind of unique in its control-scheme compared to the other platforms that we released the game upon.

After that it is just personal opinions. For what it is worth mine is to go with the Xbox 360 version of as many games as possible. Why? Because I stick the disc in the drive and it works, compared to the countless of hours I have spent tracking down driver-issues in PC games.

Draq: Deus Ex? When was that ever released with a console as the primary platform?

(*) Please don't take this statement as an announcement of such an edition :)
 
It is easy - you are fans and so rule #1 applies: Thou shall buy all possible editions in all possible languages - including the £10.000.000,00 special edition supplied in a box of purest gold and comes with a meteor fragment (*).

(*) Please don't take this statement as an announcement of such an edition :)

Too late! I've already started saving :D
 
£10.000.000,00 special edition supplied in a box of purest gold and comes with a meteor fragment (*).
Buying this one might be a tricky endavour. :(
;)

Anyway, Frontier will always do what it can to supply the best interface for each platform we release on.
Problems arise when the limitations of a console controller demand simplification of the gameplay mechanics.

Draq: Deus Ex? When was that ever released with a console as the primary platform?
Invisible War. The less is said, the better.

Overall, the gaming industry conditioned me to not expect anything good if the game is developed with consoles in mind - be it console->PC port, or simultaneous development. There are, of course, exceptions, some even notable, but that's what they are - exceptions.
And quite often even they are marred by port specific issues - poor optimization, stupid camera, excruciating controls.
 
... at least us console gamers can be happy :D

At the cost of us, PC gamers.
Then you wonder where all the hostility comes from. :p

Were it not for those problems, it wouldn't be my concern what other platforms games are released on.
Even today, I don't mind if a game is designed with PCs in mind, then ported to consoles as this doesn't affect me in the slightest.
 
(Hi, first post, woo!)

The thing, in this day and age, is that if developers want to make money from games they have to release to consoles. If we presume that Elite 4 could be one of the biggest games of the decade, why limit it to just PC gamers?

The question comes in, with the aforementioned "dumbing down" that could occur. This probably depends on the target audience, again, an economic concern. The wider the demographic, the more sales you get, but said wider demographic brings a knock on effect of enforced dumbing down.

If Elite 4 bears relationship to it's predecessors then the simulation aspects (newtonian physics in space) are the main area I see where lengthy tutorials having to be introduced.

I write for a magazine that covers driving simulators that are predominantly PC based, as part of this work I talk to many developers who have often detailed the challenge of pleasing "hard core" simulation enthusiasts at the same time as providing a satisfying experience for first timers. I am not sure any of them have got it right yet, and I am fairly sure the flight simulator market have given up even trying.

What this can lead to, of course, is hundreds and thousands of copies ending up in 2nd hand sections of game stores, or legal piracy, as Mr Braben puts it.

Games with the level of complexity of FE2 or FFE are rarely, if ever, produced for consoles these days. The sad reality is that the games industry is rarely interested in putting out a game that you will play for more than five minutes because this could prevent you from buying the next game they produce. Alas, direct content provision and long term development mean that such things are on the way back in.

Aspects that draw in console gamers and encourage them not to sell games back to stores, are multiplayer and quick fix action. I don't like the idea of Elite 4 going MMO, because then everything drills down to the lowest common denominator, but a mutliplayer aspect that can bring instanced dogfighting could work, making the multiplayer aspect largely independent of the single player game.

When it comes to quick fix action, well, that is down to missions. If you give a young starpilot the option to just join the Imperial navy or Federal fleet, you can have them up and running in spacecraft that are kitted out and provided by the military in minutes, running sorties, killing off baddies, escorting big goodie ships, running through a storyline and generally doing all this "completion" stuff that kids are so keen on these days. If after all this they decide to jump into a Cobra and go it alone then, well, that's jolly good and nice.

Meanwhile that could have been what us old hands are up to all along, and we can all meet up in the mutliplayer to have a fight and get on some world ranking table somewhere to find out the true ELITE, etc, etc, yada, yada...

However, if you've still got newtonian physics this could still struggle to get off the ground with the casual gamer.

I genuinely think that convergence can occur and that well rounded, deep and intelligent games can be produced across both platforms, but it takes a balance and potentially some amount of compromise on both sides of the coin. Sadly, the hard-core gamer or the casual gamer never want compromise, they want perfection.

J.
 
(Hi, first post, woo!)

However, if you've still got newtonian physics this could still struggle to get off the ground with the casual gamer.

J.

Rubbish. As long as it's fun, casual gamers don't mind what type of physics it has.

It's not like Frontier/FFE were hard to get into. You could get as deep as you liked.
 
As long as it's fun and they understand it, yes.

So, you're saying that the challenge is making space dogfighting fun with accurate physics? This was my implication also, not that newtonian physics are a bad thing, merely that it has to be implemented in such a way that is quick and easy to understand.

When I have seen casual gamers reporting that they think the physics in "Hawx" are "not that far off accurate", I feel that to underestimate this challenge would be churlish.

Having spoken to numerous casual gamers on the subject, it has become apparent that FE2 and FFE are both quite tricky to get into, if you don't read the manual (which casual gamers don't), and don't know anything about Elite or what is going on (which alot of people don't), and don't know how to make more money, etc.

Any sandbox game can be tricky for the noob, especially those conditioned by countless linear storyline driven games that push them down a preordained path to completion.
 
As long as it's fun and they understand it, yes.

So, you're saying that the challenge is making space dogfighting fun with accurate physics? This was my implication also, not that newtonian physics are a bad thing, merely that it has to be implemented in such a way that is quick and easy to understand.

When I have seen casual gamers reporting that they think the physics in "Hawx" are "not that far off accurate", I feel that to underestimate this challenge would be churlish.

Gah - Hawx has to be one of the most depressing releases of recent time. I didn't expect too much and they really did deliver so little. I was hoping for a game with some of the arcade flare of Ace Combat with computer boosted graphics and all we got was a poor mans shadow.

I think you have a point from an accessibility point of view and perhaps it's where some varying levels of flight difficulty might come into good consideration. The main problem would be that it would alter the way the AI responded in a combat situation. If you decided that Newtonian wasn't for you then I'd imagine that would have to apply to the enemy AI as well and that would imply different tactics.

Having spoken to numerous casual gamers on the subject, it has become apparent that FE2 and FFE are both quite tricky to get into, if you don't read the manual (which casual gamers don't), and don't know anything about Elite or what is going on (which alot of people don't), and don't know how to make more money, etc.

Any sandbox game can be tricky for the noob, especially those conditioned by countless linear storyline driven games that push them down a preordained path to completion.

Again I agree, there was a fairly steep learning curve with learning FE2 and then FFE and really you couldn't afford to not use the manual but then the manual itself was an entirely engrossing piece of literature and integral to letting you get immersed in the game that not reading it seemed just wrong.

In as far as sandbox games go, I agree and it really helps if even tho the game is 'sandbox' that there should be some decent direction even if it's just in the form of a log that suggests you go here and talking to this person is more likely to advance your course. I'm all for sandbox as long as it doesn't detract from the gameplay.

EDIT: Oh and welcome :D
 
Having spoken to numerous casual gamers on the subject, it has become apparent that FE2 and FFE are both quite tricky to get into, if you don't read the manual (which casual gamers don't), and don't know anything about Elite or what is going on (which alot of people don't), and don't know how to make more money, etc. .

Back in the days of release, there was no tutorial. People still managed to understand it, even without looking at the manual (i never looked at it).

These days, people will expect a tutorial, and if it is integrated with the beginning of the game, people won't mind it being lengthy. Games like DarkStar One and Freelancer introduced the controls using a fun tutorial, and there is no reason why an E4 tutorial should be any more complicated.

Casual gamers will use the autopilot to travel everywhere anyway, and will probably not even be aware they are in a game which features Newtonian physics. Those who are interested in the physics will learn how to do more complex manouvres manually.

The best games are those that can be appreciated on many levels, and by removing Elite's trademark physics engine you not only go against what previous games have stood for, but you also cut yourself off from a player base that wants a deeper game.

Frontier could be taken on any level. You could simply do the milk run in safe systems until you had enough money to buy a nice ship with shields, after which you could simply use the autopilot to target any enemies and then just press fire. Really, how much more simple do you want it to be?
 
turwhitt said:
These days, people will expect a tutorial

Which can translate as "these days people expect it to be easy" - casual gamers get turned off by things being even slightly tricky, this is far from the computer industry of the mid-1990's.

Yes, a good tutorial can work very well, every game has one these days.

turwhitt said:
by removing Elite's trademark physics engine you not only go against what previous games have stood for, but you also cut yourself off from a player base that wants a deeper game.

Absolutely, and I would stand resolutely against any suggestion that removing newtonian physics was in any way the right thing to do. I don't know if you are misinterpreting my statements as opinion here or not, but I am merely saying what could be a hurdle for casual console gamers, not what I want.

You are correct that many could and would use the autopilot most of the time, but personally I think this takes away from the experience notably and leaves quite a "hands off" approach to the actual space flight aspect of the game. For a casual gamer this can get boring if they bought it on the premise of it being a great space flighty/fighty game. Fundamentally, waiting in a game is considered boring. This doesn't seem to bother EVE:Online players, but they are all PC gamers.

One of the biggest complaints from consolers about Oblivion was that it took so long to walk to places. They felt that you should be able to beam anywhere regardless of whether they have been there before, travel is not regarded as entertainment.

I actually quite enjoy the travel part and the vehicle simulation. In games I like to "smell the flowers."


Steve O B Have said:
I think you have a point from an accessibility point of view and perhaps it's where some varying levels of flight difficulty might come into good consideration. The main problem would be that it would alter the way the AI responded in a combat situation. If you decided that Newtonian wasn't for you then I'd imagine that would have to apply to the enemy AI as well and that would imply different tactics.

I wouldn't have thought that having "simulation" or "arcade" physics as options would be too much of a problem for the AI, but yes, they would have to be subject to the same physics engine as the player. Most would say that providing this versatility automatically provides a wider appeal. Also, the choice between the two physics options could be selectable when setting up an online session.

Steve O B Have said:
the manual itself was an entirely engrossing piece of literature and integral to letting you get immersed in the game that not reading it seemed just wrong.

I could not agree more, another aspect of games in recent years is the demise of the manual, replaced with PDF's due to shop shelf friendly DVD boxes. I really hope that E4 carries a good, detailed and enjoyable manual as all previous Elite's have. If PDF is the only way to fulfill box size limitations then give me the option to send off for a printed version and pay an extra £15, cos I will.

Steve O B Have said:
In as far as sandbox games go, I agree and it really helps if even tho the game is 'sandbox' that there should be some decent direction even if it's just in the form of a log that suggests you go here and talking to this person is more likely to advance your course. I'm all for sandbox as long as it doesn't detract from the gameplay.

Like the mobile phone in GTA4, it works because you can ignore it if you want but it provides a subtle (well, subtle in the context of GTA!) way to remind you that you are supposed to be doing something other than murdering random pedestrians.
 
I actually quite enjoy the travel part and the vehicle simulation. In games I like to "smell the flowers."

Yeah as do I to a certain extent. Oblivion just bored me to tears and having played Lord of the Rings online for a bit I have grown to appreciate the ability as you progress to move about the map using the 'horse' system when you pay a little and get transferred at a rapid rate to your destination. Of course I don't agree with the instant travel thing if you haven't been there already.

EVE I think loses it's immersion cards when talking about it's travel system. Jump gates and point and click are fine when you're talking Auto pilot but not in combat. There just isn't the immediacy that you get in the Elite games and relying solely one or the other I think would be a mistake. I personally think that Frontier hit a nice balance between Autopilot and manual controls.

I think the lack of the tutorial in FFE and FE2 were down to technology constraints rather than a desire to integrate the idea into the game. Again I think having the option there to either play a tute or bypass it and get on with your game should be an option.

I'm all for this game being as accessible as possible so that it does sell more - it means that there is the financial backing there to continue supporting it and continue developing for it. It does beg the question that whilst this game has the potential to be a mainstay for Frontier, will it be treated as such or will it be a single release that will receive only initial bug fix attention and then be left to the gamers themselves to create additional content. Or is there a long term plan here for it to be owned and built upon. My hope is for the latter.
 
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