Some random thoughts about money.

[Stealthie]

I was going to use a baity thread title such as "It's too easy to make money in ED" but, nah.

Given the current uncertainty in-game, I decided to spend some time doing something a bit abstract; something that won't conflict with the imminent update.
I decided to find myself a rookie SLF pilot and train them up.
So, I dipped into the crew lounge at a local station, found a novice pilot who only wants 2% of my profits and signed them up.

With that done, I need a suitable ship to operate out of.
So, onto EDDB, find the closest system that sells the FGS, jump in my taxi and off I go.
Buy the FGS, buy all the upgrades available in that system, find another system which can complete the upgrades, limp across there, buy a bunch more bits.
Head out to a local RES, make Cr2m in bounties, move to another RES, do the same thing.
Back to the local station, take on a couple of "kill the pirate" missions, complete them and that's another Cr8m.
Okay, field trials complete.

But, here's the thing; the above operation took me about an hour.
And it wasn't terrific fun.

Don't get me wrong, the FGS certainly IS fun, and I'm probably going to have some fun training up my rookie pilot but there wasn't any great sense of achievement in what I did.
It felt about as momentous as buying a bag of frozen peas in the local supermarket.

For comparison, I think back to when I first bought an AspX.
I'd been flying about in a mid-spec' Cobra 3, feeling lucky when I earned more than Cr100k per mission, and the AspX was a BIG investment.
In fact, I used it for 1 cargo mission, got bushwhacked and, after the re-buy, I parked it up for a week, until I regained the funds to upgrade it.
Even then, it was a case of earning enough credits to upgrade components one at a time.
Half a dozen missions; new FSD. More missions; new power plant. More missions; better shields.
Eventually, after even more missions, I could finally afford to buy some decent weapons for my Asp and then I could finally unclench my cheeks and breathe a sigh of relief.
Course, I was still living on a knife-edge.
I always fly with re-buy but when you're flying a ship that you've sunk everything into, a re-buy eats up all your credits and sends you back to square 1.

And that WAS fun.

It took weeks to build my AspX but it didn't feel like "grind". It felt like progress. And it was fun.

When you've been playing for a long time, you will inevitably have enough credits to instantly buy and upgrade almost any ship.
That removes one of the ways you can have fun in the game and leaves you looking for other stuff to do instead.

I absolutely wouldn't suggest that legitimate ways to make money need to be nerfed.
After all, you don't want to make it even harder for people to make initial progress in the game.
The problem (assuming there actually is one) is that once you reach a certain level, the actual challenges of the game diminish and you're just left to scratch around, looking for ways to subsidise the lifestyle you've become accustomed to.

I don't really have any suggestions or solutions but, in general, it seems like there needs to be more interesting things for long-term players to sink their teeth (and credits) into so that they can feel challenged without it feeling like "grind".

 

[tafkabb]

Hi, BongoBaggins, billionaire, FGS pilot.

I can't quite agree. It took me a couple of weeks to build my FGS, and flying it to various places to fit it out and engineer added to the fun rather than detracting from it.
I also started with a harmless pilot who has already progressed to mostly harmless.

I do get a thrill from going up against enemies but instead of being terrified of going up against a Clipper as I did in the past, now I get the same rush going up against a wing of an FGS and two FASs. There is a real risk of me losing my little hired friend. The trick is, I think, to not be very good at combat, like me.

 

[Stealthie]

Hi, BongoBaggins, billionaire, FGS pilot.

I can't quite agree. It took me a couple of weeks to build my FGS, and flying it to various places to fit it out and engineer added to the fun rather than detracting from it.

Yeah, but that's the thing I'm talking about.
If you spend weeks doing something, that's a lot of time when you're involved in the game and enjoying what you're doing.

Look at it this way...
Let's say you want a new car.
What is that going to involve?

You're going to work for a year to earn money, then you're going to walk into a dealership and buy a car.
Ignoring whether you actually enjoy your job (and I hope you do), there's nothing especially enjoyable or interesting about that process.
It's a year of "grind" followed by a short reward-event.

Conversely, what if you decided to build a car instead?
It still might take you a year to complete but there's no "grind" phase of the process.
Instead, the actual "process" takes that entire time. You're locating parts, servicing them and fitting them constantly.
Assuming everything goes according to plan, it's probably going to be more fun than simply buying a car from a dealership.


I think that's one of ED's shortcomings, especially later on in the game.
When you first start out you don't have any choices. You have to improve what you've got until it works as intended.
It's an ongoing process, like building a car.

Conversely, once you have a heap of credits, there isn't the same compulsion to engage in that sort of process.
You already have a trading ships, a BHing ships and mining ships, and you use them to amass credits until you can afford to buy whatever you want.
It's a "grind", like working to save money so you can buy a car from a dealership.


Fundamentally, I think there's 2 different ways to achieve things "Grind & Reward" and "Ongoing Process"
I think it'd be more fun if there were more "ongoing processes" in ED, instead of just "grind & reward".

 

[vsTerminus]

You're telling me you bought and outfitted a ship and then visited two different RES locations and did some missions, making 12 million credits altogether, in an hour???

Every time someone says "I made X in Y hours" I just want to tell them to go do it again and record the whole thing, because I don't believe you.

 

[Soopyyy]

You're telling me you bought and outfitted a ship and then visited two different RES locations and did some missions, making 12 million credits altogether, in an hour???

Every time someone says "I made X in Y hours" I just want to tell them to go do it again amd record the whole thing, because I don't believe you.

He might have made 12,000,000cr in an hour. But he sure as hell didn't buy a ship, outfit it and travel THEN make 12mil credits in the same hour. I agree.

 

[DNA-Decay]

[video=youtube;sor9GzivGbk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sor9GzivGbk[/video]

 

[Fire70]

Is this another "back in my day sonny" thread?

Personally I couldn't care less what other did or didn't do but I will only do stuff that I think is profitable enough to make it worthwhile.

If I find out about some way to get credits fast that isn't a chore then I will try it...

 

[Stealthie]

You're telling me you bought and outfitted a ship and then visited two different RES locations and did some missions, making 12 million credits altogether, in an hour???

Every time someone says "I made X in Y hours" I just want to tell them to go do it again and record the whole thing, because I don't believe you.

Kinda missing the point there, fella.

- - - Updated - - -

Is this another "back in my day sonny" thread?

Personally I couldn't care less what other did or didn't do but I will only do stuff that I think is profitable enough to make it worthwhile.

If I find out about some way to get credits fast that isn't a chore then I will try it...

Absolutely not.

I was pointing out that when you have less money, things tend to happen more incrementally and that feels like less of a "grind".

I then wondered if there might be some way to recreate that experience for people at every stage of the game.

 

[tafkabb]

I don't set out to achieve anything other than take off and fly out of the station in an amazing make believe spaceship. I don't feel like anything is a grind.

 

[Faded Glory]

[snip]
I absolutely wouldn't suggest that legitimate ways to make money need to be nerfed.
After all, you don't want to make it even harder for people to make initial progress in the game.
The problem (assuming there actually is one) is that once you reach a certain level, the actual challenges of the game diminish and you're just left to scratch around, looking for ways to subsidise the lifestyle you've become accustomed to.

I don't really have any suggestions or solutions but, in general, it seems like there needs to be more interesting things for long-term players to sink their teeth (and credits) into so that they can feel challenged without it feeling like "grind".

To a point, perhaps...

But yes, the challenges of the game do diminish once you know how to play it, and I'm not sure that's avoidable. Perhaps part of the problem is that progression at the higher levels doesn't mean as much. Obviously it's nice to become Elite in one or more fields, but the ranking up in the navies means very little, nor does reputation once you start to become high level friendly or allied. Nothing really changes because of it.

Personally I think having access to all the 'tools' in the game is no bad thing, it allows players to experiment with different stuff, be it ships or load outs without struggling (or dare we say grinding), and in a game I think that's Ok. Those early on feelings of satisfaction of getting out of a Sidewinder and into a Cobra (for example) are real, and a part of the process, but if it were as difficult or long winded to progress to every other level of the ship in the game as those early days, many players would probably be put off. (And I've played since beta, so I too had that early uphill struggle.)

No, it's a game, and the things the devs put in the game are meant to be played. Maybe they do need to consider longer term goals for players, but I suspect that they envisage things like the BGS or perhaps power play to fill that role.

As a long time player, I like the fact that I can buy pretty much any ship in the game and outfit it as I wish, and it doesn't bother me if newer players can get there quicker. So long as I can have fun, then I think it's good if other players can have fun too. That said, I think that the notion of an endgame ship is overstated. I have no large ships at all, only small and medium ones. I also think that farming for ranks was a mistake to instigate, but that's just my opinion.

 

[CMDR GTR2014]

Kinda missing the point there, fella.

- - - Updated - - -



Absolutely not.

I was pointing out that when you have less money, things tend to happen more incrementally and that feels like less of a "grind".

I then wondered if there might be some way to recreate that experience for people at every stage of the game.

Hello, at times like these that you are NOW, i set my self some games, first game that i did was getting a cheap ship like an Eagle or a Viper, and outfit it to A-rated no engineers , and try to make the money spend on this ship back using it!

The first time i did it with an Eagle It took a while to get the 2M spent on the little devious thing...

It was fun! then i did the same with Vipers, Adder sidewinders and Cobras , by that point i figured out that Flying small ship is WAY more interesting than Medium or big ones... causer everything is scaled up to 2 or 3 , you need to manage a smaller power dist, you need to take less hits to die, every mistake cost way more ,not in money but decision wise, if you screw up 1 thing it could cost you a re-buy... and more money to you make on the little ship.


Another good Challenge is take a WHOLE Game play Day with no repair. Oh god, doing it in medium ships is just insane , in small ships if you can make it you are a god!

The ED game is pretty easy if you are not dealing with your average PvP guy.... So self impose some dificulties for youself and you can find much better experience on that , and make your self an even better pilot.

 

[Itaki]

I wish ED was not primarily about 1) Make credits to 2) Buy modules and ships. But it is for me because the current content is stale and I find 'some' fun in kitting out ships.

It would be nice if FD provided more things to do. In World of Warcraft money was not an important issue for me. Except when my first mount was a major expense back in the day. And in other MMOs as well, I might spend money at the auction house to get the best gear to keep me going for a few levels or I may get drops from bosses and not really spend much money. The focus in those games was not on money. The focus was on smashing and bashing, questing, group dungeon runs, PVP battlegrounds, exploring new areas, investing skill points, and levelling up.

...

I understand that comparing ED and WoW is like comparing apples and oranges, but my point is that these other games provided more variety...or at least tried to fool you into thinking you weren't grinding because you were now bashing a different monster in a different place, bashing a monster with a group of adventurers, or bashing each other

 

[[VR] Merkir]

You're telling me you bought and outfitted a ship and then visited two different RES locations and did some missions, making 12 million credits altogether, in an hour???

Every time someone says "I made X in Y hours" I just want to tell them to go do it again and record the whole thing, because I don't believe you.

Sometimes a single Sight Seeing mission has a reward of 18 million, and quite regularly in the 7-12 million range. Very doable within an hour, sometimes 30 mins. Massacre missions also very good. Not sure why people don't believe. I was in a thread the other day and other players were insisting I prove to them I could make 2 million an hour. Huh? Do people not look at the missions and passenger missions? Perhaps they never rep enough with the faction to see the bigger rewards? I don't know.

 

[NCFCpaul]

I understand the point being made here. It is inevitable that when you progress to a certain point there is an increasing element of repetition, to an extent it can't be avoided. You can alter the way you play to change the experience but even that is a finite activity.

My personal approach has been to reset my save (which I did some time ago now) and play the game deliberately avoiding exploits. It's certainly extended my enjoyment and I've still got plenty of things I want to get out of the game.

I hear what DBOBE says and I think Frontier have a very clear idea what they want. I wonder if a part of the problem is that this vision of the game is so vast that they can't yet put it together, and even if they could do few of us have computers with the grunt to play it. They also have to go on tangents to ensure it all remains profitable, after all, these guys may love the game and what they do but it's still a business and needs to make money. (So I'll be supporting them by buying name plates to put on my stylish yellow ships, all with equally stylish green laser beams)

As such I'm going to enjoy the game, sometimes I'll take a break and come back to it. But whatever happens I reckon Frontier will reach their ten year plan and it'll be a hell of a game!

 

[playfuldreamer]

I've been playing for a year and a half and I'm constantly asking myself where all of these wealthy people are getting their credits. I realize there's a sizeable population in-game which got to the top brackets by way of exploits and META-seeking behavior. Can't fault them for outsmarting the game. But because so many have taken advantage of these situations when they pop up, the overall balance is affected--which FD rightfully step in to fix, but those of us in the bottom and middle brackets are disproportionately affected.

It's like being told "Anyone can kick a field goal," but the people saying it got to kick their goals when it was 20 yards away and the rest of us are having to kick from 50, 60, 70, and so on, never actually able to reach the goal because FD are constantly moving the goalposts.

Edit: So, my TLDR version would be that it's not easy to make money in ED. It's becoming progressively more difficult if you're not already in a position to offset the balance changes to payouts.

 

[Pyrobee]

I've been playing for a year and a half and I'm constantly asking myself where all of these wealthy people are getting their credits. I realize there's a sizeable population in-game which got to the top brackets by way of exploits and META-seeking behavior. Can't fault them for outsmarting the game. But because so many have taken advantage of these situations when they pop up, the overall balance is affected--which FD rightfully step in to fix, but those of us in the bottom and middle brackets are disproportionately affected.

It's like being told "Anyone can kick a field goal," but the people saying it got to kick their goals when it was 20 yards away and the rest of us are having to kick from 50, 60, 70, and so on, never actually able to reach the goal because FD are constantly moving the goalposts.

Edit: So, my TLDR version would be that it's not easy to make money in ED. It's becoming progressively more difficult if you're not already in a position to offset the balance changes to payouts.

You don't need exploits to make alot of money in this game. Just because you havn't worked out how to make quick cash in the game doesn't mean it's not possible.

 

[Stealthie]

It's like being told "Anyone can kick a field goal," but the people saying it got to kick their goals when it was 20 yards away and the rest of us are having to kick from 50, 60, 70, and so on, never actually able to reach the goal because FD are constantly moving the goalposts.

Edit: So, my TLDR version would be that it's not easy to make money in ED. It's becoming progressively more difficult if you're not already in a position to offset the balance changes to payouts.

But I'm NOT suggesting they should make it harder to make money.

What I'm talking about is finding ways to maintain similar levels of involvement as people gain more money and assets.

To use your analogy, I'm wondering if there might be some way to make it more challenging for the people who do find it easy to "kick a field goal" rather than making it even harder for the people who can't yet manage it at all.

 

[Spiridon]

For comparison, I think back to when I first bought an AspX.

I'd been flying about in a mid-spec' Cobra 3, feeling lucky when I earned more than Cr100k per mission, and the AspX was a BIG investment.
In fact, I used it for 1 cargo mission, got bushwhacked and, after the re-buy, I parked it up for a week, until I regained the funds to upgrade it.
Even then, it was a case of earning enough credits to upgrade components one at a time.
Half a dozen missions; new FSD. More missions; new power plant. More missions; better shields.
Eventually, after even more missions, I could finally afford to buy some decent weapons for my Asp and then I could finally unclench my cheeks and breathe a sigh of relief.
Course, I was still living on a knife-edge.
I always fly with re-buy but when you're flying a ship that you've sunk everything into, a re-buy eats up all your credits and sends you back to square 1.

And that WAS fun.

Amen brother, amen!

I have an account specially for those "I'll start from the scratch again" moments, but the 100k missions (a dream back in the 1.0 day) keep spoiling it.

 

[Friedenreich Xante]

Your income from missions increase with your ranks.

You finished the game. Reset your pilot, have fun again.

 

[Spiridon]

Your income from missions increase with your ranks.

You finished the game. Reset your pilot, have fun again.

This is on a vanilla account, all from zero.