some thoughts to deter "seal clubbing" yet not touch "good PvP" and pirates

[Leper Messiah]

Some thoughts on the problem with "griefing" and "ganking" in open. The main issue I think is "seal clubbing", when the aggressors have a fire power advantage (either singly or in a wing). That advantage could either be over a noob in a low specced ship or a more experienced player in an exploration or Trading equipped ship.

Now once again the problem is seal clubbing, i.e. the destruction of the target for no reason other than giggles, pirating can still be a "legitimate" gaming option, as long as the victim is not destroyed.

So if FD could work out some sort of rating system for our craft, based on firepower shield etc....then in a "confrontation" the two (or more) ratings can be compared and if over a certain threshold the aggressors are flagged as "seal clubbers" (for want of a better term!), maybe ship destruction isn't the trigger as I presume the griefers could reduce someone to 1% armour and then run, so maybe set it to 50% hull?

Either way this flag then stays permanently with the aggressors and after a set amount (say 10) the offenders are kicked out of the Pilots federation so NO INSURANCE etc (basically they become outlaws), also most space stations (i.e. ALL in legal space) refuse docking and all security is scrambled to intercept the outlaws IMMEDIATELY with top class Elites WITH Engineered weapons scrambled to intercept as well.

If the "outlaw" survives and continues to seal club then after a further 10 "flagged" engagements then elite NPC bounty hunters with engineered weapons are constantly sent after the "outlaw" and on destruction they are sent back to square one, freewinder and all credits removed.

Now the time period for these "flags" to remain active could be 6 months PLAY time NOT GAME time, so the player has to evade this IN GAME and not just leave for 6 months real time.

This would not effect honourable PvPing as long as the two (or more) players fighting are in similar rated ships.
This would also not effect Pirates playing properly to "liberate" cargo and leaving the cargo vessel mainly intact.
I'm not sure about Powerplay stuff as I never touch that part of the game. I presume some people could drop into weaker craft to try and get others into trouble, but just don't destroy them or drop into a weaker craft yourself to equalise things out.

I'm certain it would need some adjustments to stop griefers dropping into lower craft to try and get others hit by these measures, but some common sense tweaking could get around devious minded folk like that (can't quite mentally stoop to that level myself so probably plenty of areas to criticise my ideas!).

TL: DR "seal clubbing is bad mkay" and ideas to punish/deter it.

 

[StiTch]

So if FD could work out some sort of rating system for our craft, based on firepower shield etc....then in a "confrontation" the two (or more) ratings can be compared and if over a certain threshold the aggressors are flagged as "seal clubbers" (for want of a better term!), maybe ship destruction isn't the trigger as I presume the griefers could reduce someone to 1% armour and then run, so maybe set it to 50% hull?

Nice sentiment and I believe is already being considered under the karma C&P - i.e. heavier penalties for "unfair" ganks of newer players.

Unfortunately...

This would not effect honourable PvPing as long as the two (or more) players fighting are in similar rated ships.

This isn't true.

The system needs to somehow adjust for experienced CMDRs in small/less expensive ships. I don't want someone in an iCutter penalised for taking me on in an iCourier, or DBX - both formidable tools under the right hand and mods. Hell, there are YT series for sidewinders in PvP.

It also then allows gankorz to mount themselves in a sidey and kill without this penalty, as the fault for the death is often in equal measure in the victim's ignorance. I am certain that in a properly kitted/modded sidey many PvE players would still fall to me without CLing.

Well behind giving newer players a little more protection until they can reasonably git gud; but whatever makes that determination cannot outright be a simple ship value.

 

[sovapid]

The main issue I think is "seal clubbing", when the aggressors have a fire power advantage (either singly or in a wing). That advantage could either be over a noob in a low specced ship or a more experienced player in an exploration or Trading equipped ship.

And the first problem is the definition of "seal clubbing". I agree with the first part of your definition, but not the second.

 

[TopCat160]

I was ganked for the fifth time a few nights ago. This was the first one I survived, I felt quite chuffed.

 

[Yank31]

I like the driving idea (seal clubbing a player is bad), I like the creative punishment (most of it anyway, no station docking, retaliation force chasing... kicking of the pilot federation !!), but I would not invest any time trying to piece everything together, in great (or any) details, as I'm pretty sure that in the end FD will bring its own (and probably weird) ideas anyway.

 

[Morbad]

I've been trying to find away for my CMDR to leave the Pilot's Federation since I learned I couldn't. Going to be pretty irate if I have to attack random people who haven't done anything to offend my CMDR to get booted.

'Honorable' combat is also pretty silly and I'm highly against incentivising stupidity. If my CMDR has offended your's and your tools or skills aren't up to snuff, I expect you to find some friends, not give up on your hopes of vengeance just because you can't stand up to me in a 'fair' fight. Likewise, if you're able to catch my CDMR with his pants down, you deserve the victory at least as much as if you were simply the superior pilot.

It also then allows gankorz to mount themselves in a sidey and kill without this penalty, as the fault for the death is often in equal measure in the victim's ignorance. I am certain that in a properly kitted/modded sidey many PvE players would still fall to me without CLing.

This.

Also, collateral damage like this:

[video=youtube;Qegj5acCTX8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qegj5acCTX8[/video]

I was screwing around in a Condor (30MJ, 30 hull integrity, ~35DPS?) and managed to get an Anaconda bystander shot down and drive off a frag Python...when I was simply trying to jokingly demonstrate the flaws of the all frag python.

Yes, I probably should have made my intentions more clear, the Python should probably have not have gotten so upset (and not mistakenly thought I had been launched from the Anaconda), and the Anaconda should have been more cautious in a flimsy setup while in close proximity to frag boats with hair triggers. Situations like this aren't all that uncommon and aren't hard to engineer/instigate and I'm not sure how some of the proposed 'improvements' being waved about would do anything to punish the 'offenders'.

 

[Aashenfox]

For me it's pretty simple...

When a player kills another player, who didn't mount a meaningful resistance (say 100 damage points to the attacker's shield indicates consent to battle), they get a global wanted level (Pilot Federation Bounty, or PFB for short) that lasts a meaningful amount of time, during which, no rebuy, no docking at any empire, alliance or federation aligned stations (independent and anarchy ok) and wings of NPCs hunt you while you have a global wanted level.

You wanna be a pirate? Deal with 'really' being wanted if you destroy a trader because he didn't hand over his cargo, and use cheap ships, cos under my system, pirates won't have rebuy (PF insurance) and rightly so (although we could offset this with some kind of extra expensive insurance from the pirates Guild, or whatever, maybe 40% rebuy), it should be the HARDEST way to make a living in Elite, wanted in every port, nobody you can trust or turn to except your multicannons, restricted access to first world things. Naturally this woould require a bit more fleshing out of the piracy side of the game in order to be fair and balanced, such as anarchy stations offering career pirates black market weapons they wouldn't otherwise be able to buy due to being Fed/Emp aligned (gate them like Fed ranks behind bounties sought for you in a ranking system, the more bounties you acquire, the higher up the chain you get and get access to better black market weaponry). Even allow pirates to get their hands on black market prismatics cos a shield can be stolen from anywhere, right?

 

[Leper Messiah]

And the first problem is the definition of "seal clubbing". I agree with the first part of your definition, but not the second.

Indeed that's a definite area where the "young" aspect of seal clubbing is not valid, but in the wider context of someone picking a fight on a weaker target that CAN include more experienced players in craft not specifically equipped for combat. In that context I do personally think it's in the same ballpark as seal clubbing. Basically it's "bullying" first and foremost, and adults can be bullied just as much as children can.....and for the love of god NO ONE argue that adults cannot be bullied.

 

[Leper Messiah]

I've been trying to find away for my CMDR to leave the Pilot's Federation since I learned I couldn't. Going to be pretty irate if I have to attack random people who haven't done anything to offend my CMDR to get booted.

'Honorable' combat is also pretty silly and I'm highly against incentivising stupidity. If my CMDR has offended your's and your tools or skills aren't up to snuff, I expect you to find some friends, not give up on your hopes of vengeance just because you can't stand up to me in a 'fair' fight. Likewise, if you're able to catch my CDMR with his pants down, you deserve the victory at least as much as if you were simply the superior pilot.



This.

Also, collateral damage like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qegj5acCTX8

I was screwing around in a Condor (30MJ, 30 hull integrity, ~35DPS?) and managed to get an Anaconda bystander shot down and drive off a frag Python...when I was simply trying to jokingly demonstrate the flaws of the all frag python.

Yes, I probably should have made my intentions more clear, the Python should probably have not have gotten so upset (and not mistakenly thought I had been launched from the Anaconda), and the Anaconda should have been more cautious in a flimsy setup while in close proximity to frag boats with hair triggers. Situations like this aren't all that uncommon and aren't hard to engineer/instigate and I'm not sure how some of the proposed 'improvements' being waved about would do anything to punish the 'offenders'.

Yup I never said my ideas were flawless I did foresee that people would try to exploit any game rules to their advantage, but I think most could be countered. Stich saying gankers in Sidey's.....seeing as most gankers and griefers are at heart cowardly (hence picking on softer targets) would they have the balls for that? I think many would not and even so a "victim" would have more of a chance V a well equipped and engineered Sidey than a well equipped and engineered Conda etc etc. It's all about the disparity and finding a way to punish it.

Collateral damage is another thing, but doing it 10-20 times in a row? Accidents do happen I agree but statistically are rare and with some sort of drop off (unannounced to avoid exploitation) where the flag can be reset. Even so that would mean the griefer would have to stop being a <insert insult here> for a period of time, which is good is it not?

 

[Ian Doncaster]

Now once again the problem is seal clubbing, i.e. the destruction of the target for no reason other than giggles, pirating can still be a "legitimate" gaming option, as long as the victim is not destroyed.

So... I'm an escort pilot, and I obviously like to discourage people shooting at under-armed craft because it makes my job much easier if they don't. However, to be effective I also need the freedom to open fire on someone who does threaten without worrying about more than my own rebuy (I have plenty of those) and other reasonable consequences (e.g. bounties, reputation hits, police interference)

Let's say I'm flying my escort FDL - it's not quite a pure PvP build because it needs to be able to fly between systems on its own, but it's fairly close. I'm escorting an exploration Asp - the usual paper shields, paper hull, subsystems worn down by a few close encounters with stars and planets, pilot who hasn't seen any sort of combat for months.

Someone jumps in to the system with a much weaker but still dangerous combat ship... let's say a Viper 3. Easily capable of destroying the Asp with high-alpha weapons (even without engineering, since the Asp doesn't have any combat-relevant mods either) but "Viper 3 attacks Asp" is unlikely to count as seal clubbing. "FDL attacks Viper 3", on the other hand, probably would. (This is not a situation where I can calmly wander off, fetch my own Viper 3, and give the other Viper pilot a nice honourable even fight ... at least, not without abandoning the Asp to its fate!). The Viper, by the way, has not killed any explorers in this system yet today, so is Clean.

This is problem 1 of the proposal (and almost all similar proposals): you're defining "seal clubbing" as attacking a weaker ship without "good cause" - but the game cannot determine "good cause" through simple objective rules. (At least, I think I'm morally justified in shooting the Viper 3 in that scenario, the Asp pilot agrees, and the Viper pilot can hardly object given they were planning to kill an explorer with months of data aboard ... so who's actually being served here by saying I shouldn't?)


Problem 2: as pointed out by others, a poor combat pilot will lose to nominally-weaker ships anyway. But on top of that, there's also the reverse bizarre incentive: Pilot Bob is not good enough to get their armed and shielded Anaconda through the CG/Powerplay blockade with cargo aboard ... but, if they take off the weapons, shields, and hull reinforcements, they can carry more cargo and anyone who attacks them gets the seal-clubbing penalty?

 

[sovapid]

I was ganked for the fifth time a few nights ago. This was the first one I survived, I felt quite chuffed.

If you want more practice, I'd be willing to meet up for simulated ganks where I won't intentionally kill you.

And yeah, getting away is fun.

 

[Saxon Kili]

Some thoughts on the problem with "griefing" and "ganking" in open. The main issue I think is "seal clubbing", when the aggressors have a fire power advantage (either singly or in a wing). That advantage could either be over a noob in a low specced ship or a more experienced player in an exploration or Trading equipped ship.

Now once again the problem is seal clubbing, i.e. the destruction of the target for no reason other than giggles, pirating can still be a "legitimate" gaming option, as long as the victim is not destroyed.

So if FD could work out some sort of rating system for our craft, based on firepower shield etc....then in a "confrontation" the two (or more) ratings can be compared and if over a certain threshold the aggressors are flagged as "seal clubbers" (for want of a better term!), maybe ship destruction isn't the trigger as I presume the griefers could reduce someone to 1% armour and then run, so maybe set it to 50% hull?

Either way this flag then stays permanently with the aggressors and after a set amount (say 10) the offenders are kicked out of the Pilots federation so NO INSURANCE etc (basically they become outlaws), also most space stations (i.e. ALL in legal space) refuse docking and all security is scrambled to intercept the outlaws IMMEDIATELY with top class Elites WITH Engineered weapons scrambled to intercept as well.

If the "outlaw" survives and continues to seal club then after a further 10 "flagged" engagements then elite NPC bounty hunters with engineered weapons are constantly sent after the "outlaw" and on destruction they are sent back to square one, freewinder and all credits removed.

Now the time period for these "flags" to remain active could be 6 months PLAY time NOT GAME time, so the player has to evade this IN GAME and not just leave for 6 months real time.

This would not effect honourable PvPing as long as the two (or more) players fighting are in similar rated ships.
This would also not effect Pirates playing properly to "liberate" cargo and leaving the cargo vessel mainly intact.
I'm not sure about Powerplay stuff as I never touch that part of the game. I presume some people could drop into weaker craft to try and get others into trouble, but just don't destroy them or drop into a weaker craft yourself to equalise things out.

I'm certain it would need some adjustments to stop griefers dropping into lower craft to try and get others hit by these measures, but some common sense tweaking could get around devious minded folk like that (can't quite mentally stoop to that level myself so probably plenty of areas to criticise my ideas!).

TL: DR "seal clubbing is bad mkay" and ideas to punish/deter it.

Six months seal clubbing flag is a bit too extreme for a game that promotes "hunting commanders." Why not make it a week, instead. And aggressive police response in High, somewhat aggressive in Medium and barely a response in Low Security space.

Reducing a clubber down to a Sidey is also too extreme for a game that promotes "hunting commanders." How about the seal clubber, once kicked out of the Pilot's Federation has to go find an alternate source of insurance. Gain influence with some anarchy local pirate faction who will eventually insure his ship at a max of say 23%. Gaining rep with additional pirate factions could add 23% more insurance each, up to say 69% max coverage. Of course, in the event that a pirate faction loses system control (via BGS) then the insured receives an email that he is no longer insured by that faction.

Maybe Archon Delaine could also offer better insurance if someone pledges. Maybe 75%.

The downside might be you actually have to earn your insurance by doing a few missions now and then for your insurance provider.

Anyway, a life of crime is a valid play style, but it should be more difficult than being a law abiding citizen (imo).

 

[Darth Ender]

There's newbie hunting and then there's what the majority of crying on the forum is about and that's min-max'd traders/explorers getting killed.

I can stand behind some drastic measures to protect newbies. I could not care less about min-maxed players. Not at all.


To protect newbies, i think starter systems should have enhanced security forces and enhanced nfz's that disable hardpoints rather than just warn you or only impose penalties when used. I think this should be expanded to 1-2 other systems around the starter systems too to allow new players to learn and get used to the game a little more before diving into the deep end.

As far as min-max'd players. They chose to fly unprotected ships, I dont care if they're in an asp without weapons and wing of corvettes takes them out.

They can cry a river, nobody should feel sorry for them. It would be less of a controversial topic if the npc's were any good at killing players.

 

[Stigbob]

Blocking works, it's also permanent.
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/366473-Lead-Designers-advice-on-dealing-with-griefing

 

[TopCat160]

If you want more practice, I'd be willing to meet up for simulated ganks where I won't intentionally kill you.

Thanks, I appreciate the offer, but I think even knowing ahead of time that it was only simulated would make it less real.

For instance, an NPC interdicts me and it just feels routine. Throttle to zero, then as I drop out, I assess the attacker... and either run or fight.

Whereas a gank is completely different. There are no cheesy warnings ("I've come a long way for what's in your hold", tee hee), and as soon as the interdiction finishes, the attack starts, and it's invariably from something heavily armed and relentless. For me, even though it's just a game, the physiological effect is real and visceral, pulse rate to max, massive adrenaline kick - and getting away depends on doing the right thing, and doing it now!

It was lack of presence of mind - doing the right thing under pressure - that was why I utterly failed the first few times. But since then I've practised the getting away drill, and it worked. In fairness, I think there was only one of him, whereas before there were several, and my shields came down and my hull disintegrated so fast that I'm not sure I'd have escaped if it had been like that the other night.

It has to be real to feel like that, so simulated practice wouldn't cut it. Or so I imagine... what do I know?!

 

[nathanc213]

Surely the game can determine the new players based on their rank so if a higher ranked player/players attacked them it will penalise the attackers accordingly (id say buff the noobs weapons and shields so they do significant damage to the gankers whilst being able to take damage just to teach seal clubbers a lesson).

However as for piracy i have no clue how it would work.

 

[Vorxian]

I've been trying to find away for my CMDR to leave the Pilot's Federation since I learned I couldn't. Going to be pretty irate if I have to attack random people who haven't done anything to offend my CMDR to get booted.

'Honorable' combat is also pretty silly and I'm highly against incentivising stupidity. If my CMDR has offended your's and your tools or skills aren't up to snuff, I expect you to find some friends, not give up on your hopes of vengeance just because you can't stand up to me in a 'fair' fight. Likewise, if you're able to catch my CDMR with his pants down, you deserve the victory at least as much as if you were simply the superior pilot.



This.

Also, collateral damage like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qegj5acCTX8

I was screwing around in a Condor (30MJ, 30 hull integrity, ~35DPS?) and managed to get an Anaconda bystander shot down and drive off a frag Python...when I was simply trying to jokingly demonstrate the flaws of the all frag python.

Yes, I probably should have made my intentions more clear, the Python should probably have not have gotten so upset (and not mistakenly thought I had been launched from the Anaconda), and the Anaconda should have been more cautious in a flimsy setup while in close proximity to frag boats with hair triggers. Situations like this aren't all that uncommon and aren't hard to engineer/instigate and I'm not sure how some of the proposed 'improvements' being waved about would do anything to punish the 'offenders'.

It's a good watch Morbad, your control and positioning was pretty interesting to watch. I can't easily tell what jacked up the temperature though.. Ship needs air con!

 

[Pyrobee]

Been hanging around Eravte area in open on a new account in my harmless sindewinder, where is all this supposed seal clubbing going on?

 

[Morbad]

Surely the game can determine the new players based on their rank so if a higher ranked player/players attacked them it will penalise the attackers accordingly

Rank doesn't mean much and Frontier has been handing out combat rank resets to those who ask for them.

(id say buff the noobs weapons and shields so they do significant damage to the gankers whilst being able to take damage just to teach seal clubbers a lesson).

This is both unlikely to be effective and impossible to justify in any non-gamist sense. Larger penalties or a swifter response could be explained contextually, but not arbitrary inflation of power relative to a higher rank attacker...and due to various mechanisms would be easy to abuse.

It's a good watch Morbad, your control and positioning was pretty interesting to watch. I can't easily tell what jacked up the temperature though.. Ship needs air con!

All the SLFs run super toasty, especially if you bottom out the WEP cap. Taipan seems to handle heat the best, GU-97 the worst, but the MC condor has the coldest weapons so probably has the best sustained damage...heat is still an issue though.

I melt them to destruction almost as often as I get them shot down.

 

[Xenith]

This is both unlikely to be effective and impossible to justify in any non-gamist sense. Larger penalties or a swifter response could be explained contextually, but not arbitrary inflation of power relative to a higher rank attacker...and due to various mechanisms would be easy to abuse.

Swift and brutal police response, that's what's needed. They should be flying insanely powerful ships, which would then annihilate the would be ganker in seconds. Obviously in systems where there is supposed to be little or no police, this would not apply, but then new players shouldn't be flying in those systems anyway.