Hardware & Technical Sound chip

the next thing then is to ask, 1 why do you think the one on your pc is problematic?, 2. do you or can you detect interference currently when you play audio..And not so much regarding ED audio, but for example, can you record some audio and then play it back with or without interference?...
more, I guess...are you currently tapped into a stereo or just using a headset...or what are you using? to listen with?

And depending on the answers and various things, the difference can be huge...some motherboards should just have the caps, coils and inductors melted off as they are plain and simply poorly done and can actually even cause video interference.
 
It happens, the weak point is usually the analog amp, an analog amp consists of capacitors and coils which are used to separate various frequencies and sadly onboard ones are often very susceptible to interference. Sometimes they can be 'fixed' by placing foil around the circuitry..

I tend to use sound blaster live and sound blaster Audigy cards in most of my pc's, eliminating any concerns that on-board audio can cause. Then just disable onboard audio in the BIOS.

I am not a passionate like you.

Currently I use my Asus Supreme FX integrated sound chip and an analog amp from 1977 Akai Am 2800, 2 * 80 Watts with Boston speakers.

The sound is very good for a commonplace user like me.

I thought that to use the SP / DIF output and an external converter will bring a clear and honest qualitative leap.

But it seems that by reading all the comments in this thread, I do not have to wait for a revolution :)
 
as for interference, it can actually be caused by all kinds of things that have nothing to do with the A/D circuitry.
fans, leds, cd/dvd players, faulty power supply, any add-ons that happen to be using transformers to power neon or various plasma type lighting, any kind of cable with poor or no shielding, modem, router....
seriously, any and all of these and many more devices generate multiple frequencies that can be leaking out into everything else...
some that are out of your control...neighbors yard lights, garage or house lights..flourescents with bad transformers or bad capacitors(starters)...these ones are very common causes, cb or other radio or devices using battery chargers for power...I can go on...
 
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the next thing then is to ask, 1 why do you think the one on your pc is problematic?, 2. do you or can you detect interference currently when you play audio..And not so much regarding ED audio, but for example, can you record some audio and then play it back with or without interference?...
more, I guess...are you currently tapped into a stereo or just using a headset...or what are you using? to listen with?

And depending on the answers and various things, the difference can be huge...some motherboards should just have the caps, coils and inductors melted off as they are plain and simply poorly done and can actually even cause video interference.

I am very satisfied with the integrated audio of my PC.

No interference. A clear and powerful sound with the amp and a PC in direct analog connection.

I can read and record without any interference.

All in analog and without external intermediary (DAC) between the PC and the amp

I thought that to use the SP / DIF output and an external converter will bring a clear and frank qualitative leap.

But with the very good quality that I currently have, I think that I will not get much more.

:)
 
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It happens, the weak point is usually the analog amp, an analog amp consists of capacitors and coils which are used to separate various frequencies and sadly onboard ones are often very susceptible to interference. Sometimes they can be 'fixed' by placing foil around the circuitry..

I tend to use sound blaster live and sound blaster Audigy cards in most of my pc's, eliminating any concerns that on-board audio can cause. Then just disable onboard audio in the BIOS.

I don't think amplifiers do that unless they have a built in crossover do they?
 
sounds then more like something like an equalizer would be of more use to you...and I will add also, If I were using that stereo, I would add 2 more speakers to it...
Doing both the extra speakers and an equalizer will be like getting a new system....
 
sounds then more like something like an equalizer would be of more use to you...and I will add also, If I were using that stereo, I would add 2 more speakers to it...
Doing both the extra speakers and an equalizer will be like getting a new system....

At one time I had 4 speakers with this amp.

2 Mercuriales and 2 JBL

Happy Days

:)
 
I don't think amplifiers do that unless they have a built in crossover do they?

all commercial analog amps do, yes...in the case of integrated devices like computers, sometime the micro components are inside the actual chip, but even so, a few passive components are usually added simply to attempt to filter any interference from the power source.
Nothing to do with a crossover, its just common practice to add certain passive components in order to hopefully prevent interference from power source and often from other onboard devices that are known to generate frequencies that may interfere with a clean output.
 
all commercial analog amps do, yes...in the case of integrated devices like computers, sometime the micro components are inside the actual chip, but even so, a few passive components are usually added simply to attempt to filter any interference from the power source.
Nothing to do with a crossover, its just common practice to add certain passive components in order to hopefully prevent interference from power source and often from other onboard devices that are known to generate frequencies that may interfere with a clean output.

I may be off track here but isn't is more usual to filter out noise at the power supply rather than in the signal path though? That would make more sense than allowing noise to hit the signal path and then filtering it out because that would alter the signal.

I get that the amp may have a high pass filter (subsonic) and maybe a low pass filter at the top end > +20KHz.

Just generally interested in how things work if you're wondering why I'm asking.
 
It's tangent time.

I may be off track here but isn't is more usual to filter out noise at the power supply rather than in the signal path though?
Power supply for mixed analogue and digital designs is tricky, and strictly speaking those two domains each get their own supply. For example, it's a common mistake to even have the same ground even though pretty much every DAC or ADC will have separate pins for digital and analogue supply and ground. When you just go "oh they're both 3.3V and ground" and solder them together, the digital parts can and will inject nasty interference into the nice and clean analogue circuitry.

I suspect that's the case with my cheap USB audio interface (a Behringer UCA-222 which I highly recommend except for this issue): it plays back without any audible noise floor so I can crank up both the mixer it goes in and the power amp and get nothing; it also records very clean. However, enabling the recording ADC causes very notable high-frequency noise on the line out.

Ideally, audio power would be derived from a nice big and inefficient linear supply with a toroid transformer and well-filtered linear regulators providing something like ±15V for opamp rails and whatever else from separate windings. In consumer electronics except dedicated amplifiers or receivers that's of course not an option for several reasons, so you get little cheap and relatively noisy switchmode supplies with varying quality everywhere.

With onboard audio you also have the problem that was already mentioned that the inside of a computer case is just about the worst place to put that stuff because it will be sitting next to the CPU, graphics parts, USB, and whatever else comes along with wildly unpredictable emissions trying to muddle up the place. That gets even worse when you look at microphone inputs which take an extremely weak signal and amplify the hell out of it, with extra bonus for using case front connectors that are attached to a long antenna lead that will pick up so much more, and people wonder why (apart from cheap headsets) they sound like crap over VoIP. With front connectors I've seen it get so bad that, even without a microphone connected, the leads would pick up the headphone signal at a level that made it echo back; that was fun to diagnose.

All in all, you need to avoid and potentially filter noise and interference everywhere.

The TL;DR is: get audio outside the case digitally in whatever way, be it the digital interface of the onboard solution or even an affordable (not "cheap") USB interface, and you will usually get better quality. Power amplifiers for headphones or speakers are another if similar story. Even more tangentially, if you want digital out, the coaxial "electric" interface is better than optical.
 
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so you get little cheap and relatively noisy switchmode supplies with varying quality everywhere.

Switching power supplies are an area that have also come a long way for PCs.

Fifteen years ago, a good PSU would have ripple barely shy of 10% of the output voltage and 5%+ droop on each rail when going from full load to load.

Today, the worst PSU (which is admittedly still a quality unit) I have installed in a modern system has maybe 2-3% ripple (~25mv on the +12v, and single digit on the minor rails) and less than 1% deviation from spec output across the entire load range.

It happens, the weak point is usually the analog amp, an analog amp consists of capacitors and coils which are used to separate various frequencies and sadly onboard ones are often very susceptible to interference. Sometimes they can be 'fixed' by placing foil around the circuitry..

I tend to use sound blaster live and sound blaster Audigy cards in most of my pc's, eliminating any concerns that on-board audio can cause. Then just disable onboard audio in the BIOS.

Every motherboard I've purchased in the last four or five years that has cost more than 130 USD has had a grounded metal cap covering the amp, and the entire audio section of the PCB cordoned off from any extraneous traces.

The audio sections of most non-budget boards look something like this now:
27_gigZ270K3_aud_big.jpg


I also have some Sound Blaster Live! and Audigy parts and onboard has been better than the former in most ways I can actually measure (via something like RightMark with a loopback cable or using the internal loopback "wave" or "what U hear" inputs) for years, though the difference is much less clear vs. the better Audigy versions.
 
It's tangent time.


Power supply for mixed analogue and digital designs is tricky, and strictly speaking those two domains each get their own supply. For example, it's a common mistake to even have the same ground even though pretty much every DAC or ADC will have separate pins for digital and analogue supply and ground. When you just go "oh they're both 3.3V and ground" and solder them together, the digital parts can and will inject nasty interference into the nice and clean analogue circuitry.

I suspect that's the case with my cheap USB audio interface (a Behringer UCA-222 which I highly recommend except for this issue): it plays back without any audible noise floor so I can crank up both the mixer it goes in and the power amp and get nothing; it also records very clean. However, enabling the recording ADC causes very notable high-frequency noise on the line out.

Ideally, audio power would be derived from a nice big and inefficient linear supply with a toroid transformer and well-filtered linear regulators providing something like ±15V for opamp rails and whatever else from separate windings. In consumer electronics except dedicated amplifiers or receivers that's of course not an option for several reasons, so you get little cheap and relatively noisy switchmode supplies with varying quality everywhere.

With onboard audio you also have the problem that was already mentioned that the inside of a computer case is just about the worst place to put that stuff because it will be sitting next to the CPU, graphics parts, USB, and whatever else comes along with wildly unpredictable emissions trying to muddle up the place. That gets even worse when you look at microphone inputs which take an extremely weak signal and amplify the hell out of it, with extra bonus for using case front connectors that are attached to a long antenna lead that will pick up so much more, and people wonder why (apart from cheap headsets) they sound like crap over VoIP. With front connectors I've seen it get so bad that, even without a microphone connected, the leads would pick up the headphone signal at a level that made it echo back; that was fun to diagnose.

All in all, you need to avoid and potentially filter noise and interference everywhere.

The TL;DR is: get audio outside the case digitally in whatever way, be it the digital interface of the onboard solution or even an affordable (not "cheap") USB interface, and you will usually get better quality. Power amplifiers for headphones or speakers are another if similar story. Even more tangentially, if you want digital out, the coaxial "electric" interface is better than optical.

Wow, didn't know analogue and digital signal paths needed separate grounds. Poor designers :)

I have one of those Behringer USB thingies too but it's analogue i/o only, neat little units and very good value. It was for measuring the frequency response of loudspeakers before I got a calibrated mic / preamp.

I'm sure the inside of a computer case is certainly a challenging environment in which to maintain the integrity of an audio signal, I don't think the medium to high end kit, at least that which I have used does a bad job considering though. I remember my first few computers had horrible audio quality probably due to really cheap soundcards, I still have my old audigy 2ZS in a draw somewhere, that was a giant leap forwards in quality. Most of the decent on board stuff works quite well these days, we haven't tricked ourselves into believing low quality audio actually sounds OK like lots of people have with low bitrate lossy audio tracks so the manufacturers need to create decent kit.

As Morbad says, SMPS are pretty good these days, there are loads of audio specific SMPS available, no idea what makes them audio specific but they are quite popular so must be good for something, class D is quite popular now mind you.

I'd think as a good principle if you can get a clean signal out of the machine and into something dedicated to audio, that's not going to do any harm at all.
 
As Morbad says, SMPS are pretty good these days, there are loads of audio specific SMPS available, no idea what makes them audio specific but they are quite popular so must be good for something, class D is quite popular now mind you.
I'd assume a 50-100% premium on the price and a bunch more filtering than you'd have on "non-audio" stuff; maybe different components like avoiding ceramic capacitors in some values (they're slightly microphonic). The switching frequency would also be chosen to put the major harmonics outside anything audible.

Class D amplifiers are something different again, great stuff though when you need loud, small, and lightweight and aren't dealing with audiophiles crying about distortion that's only relevant in lab measurements :D
 
Well, audiophiles need things to cry about and I guess lab measurements are as good as anything else :) Makes a change nice change from banging on about cryogenic treated directional power leads I expect.

Seeing a lot of SMPS / class D builds popping up in the DIY pages in the last few years, they are now tolerated for certain applications by the communities. Ish.
 
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