Speed and Distances

[Larash]

I came to think about distances in E.D again - this time not about distances in space, but rather about distances of places on planets (or in planetary orbit).
From what I understand, the speed of a ship is shown in metres per second. A ship flying at a speed of 200m/s is travelling at 720km/h. At this speed travelling from Berlin to New York (ca 6400 km) would take me a bit less than 9 hours. Seems quite long compared to the time I need to travel light-years in space...

Did I make a mistake with the current flight-speeds? Are we supposed to use SC inside a planets athmosphere? How large is the distance, that the mass-locking effect of an earthlike planet will extend into space? (Just as a reference: todays geostationary objects orbit in 36.000 km height)

Is there any info on how these close (yet still immense) distances will be covered?

 

[Pyros]

I came to think about distances in E.D again - this time not about distances in space, but rather about distances of places on planets (or in planetary orbit).
From what I understand, the speed of a ship is shown in metres per second. A ship flying at a speed of 200m/s is travelling at 720km/h. At this speed travelling from Berlin to New York (ca 6400 km) would take me a bit less than 9 hours. Seems quite long compared to the time I need to travel light-years in space...

Did I make a mistake with the current flight-speeds? Are we supposed to use SC inside a planets athmosphere? How large is the distance, that the mass-locking effect of an earthlike planet will extend into space? (Just as a reference: todays geostationary objects orbit in 36.000 km height)

Is there any info on how these close (yet still immense) distances will be covered?

Yes, the "dogfight" (normal space) travelling speeds are that slow, exactly to enable multiplayer dogfighting.

I guess a form of SC will have to be used, as currently happens for traveling to space stations-

 

[Lobstris]

It will be interesting when/how/if Frontier can reconcile the slow speeds in normal thruster usage with planetary landings and atmospheric flight when/if/how we get them - presumably SC distances and mass locking will need a bit of a rethink. But then how does that affect people without the expansion?

Hmmmmmm... glad I don't have to sort that one out...

 

[Associat0r]

It will use a form of Super-Cruise.

 

[Lobstris]

It will use a form of Super-Cruise.

But then you'd also need a range of speeds much lower than the current 30km/s SC minimum we have now, with eventual overlap with normal thruster speeds - so the transition would have to be even more seamless than the current solution.

 

[[SI] Bobdelion]

It's a brain teaser all-right, purely from a gameplay point of view. In many respects speed and distance are all tailored to the current context you are in - for instance hyper jumps seem far to quick for what would be realistic in a 'real world' context, but this ends up making them fun in ED.

As I'm sure many did, the first time I entered orbit around a planet a aimed my ship at the surface in a vain attempt to see what would happen as I got closer. Cue, a long period of time staring at a not-quite-high-enough-res texture and getting nowhere in particular, followed by knocking the whole idea on the head and resuming my exploration of the system. Currently speed and distance have made even approaching a planets surface a no-go.

There will obviously have to be some bending of the rules in any transition into low atmosphere. Other games (NMS comes to mind) achieve this by crushing the distances involved and severely warping the time it takes to get anywhere, but there is a fine line in making such a system feel plausible (of which NMS obviously does not care to much about given its ardently arcade leanings), not to mention satisfying to engage with. I just hope we don't end up with a completely 'on rails' situation where your control ends up being limited to some very minor adjustment while you watch a canned sequence play out.

I think it would be great if there was a clear threshold where if you stray into low orbit you are automatically assumed to be trying to go planet side (maybe accompanied with setting an approximate destination via some kind of navigation interface so you don't just 'trip' into landing by accident), at which point you enter a 'landing' mode that drives you into a much faster speed bracket. My idea would be something like the "express elevator to hell" sequence from Aliens where you would essentially be trying to manage your madly flailing ship as it plummets toward the surface. Once you reach a near earth level things would then level out again and normal flight could resume, but even then your specific speed may end up being adjusted up slightly so you can cover a real distance in a timely manor.

Of course you would also need something for going back up through the atmosphere again - maybe something like a 'boost launch' mode where you just have to point your nose toward an escape vector at which point hitting the thrust button would catapult you back up through the atmosphere again and into high orbit again. It is worth saying that I think approaching the surface of a planet would hold much more potential for gameplay (and sight seeing) so a quick launch mode for exiting a planet would be far more preferable for me.

Given Frontiers approach to many of the other systems in the game I do fully expect the developers to try and add a bit of 'game' into any such mechanics, so in general I would be surprised if any system they come up with ends up being completely passive and totally realistic in nature, which is great as far as I'm concerned. Rule bending is fine as long as the results feel right in game.

 

[Completely Harmless]

Just had a thought as I went to bed last night. I have no clue what the plans are, or if there are any at the moment, but here are my thoughts on this:

________


Landing on planets (with atmosphere):

The user will initiate "entry", entering a state similar to hyper space, passing through the atmosphere (be it with or without clouds). No player control at this stage. Once through the upper layers the ship will be in super-sonic speed (similar to super cruise).


Getting around a planet with atmosphere:

Super-sonic cruising allows the player to fly around the world at greater speed than the limited "dog-fighting speed", as that would not be a plausible speed of traversing most planets. As in space, this can be "interdicted".

If they drop down too low the super-sonic will disengage (safety) and you will enter the "dog-fighting speed" zone, where you can fly around to take a look at the scenery, land at ports and crash happily into mountains and so on.


Leaving a planet with atmosphere:

Then, once you're bored or whatever, and want to return to the big black yonder you engage the "escape velocity" and shoot straight up through that "hyper space-like" transition again.

________


Now, I am certain FD has a far more elegant solution in mind, but that's what popped into my head any way, and I thought I'd throw it out there to, if nothing else, make someone laugh at the foolishness of it. It is what it is, not having sat down to ponder the ins and outs of it.

 

[Merf]

They could simply allow faster speeds on a planet with athmosphere. The fluff reasoning could be the safety limiter that keeps the speeds where they are now disengage since you will not encounter objects flying as fast down there and there will be gravity and air resistance limiting the manoeuvres keeping the pilot "safe" from being able to turn itself into red cockpit paste from flipping about alone.

As for getting there... I do hope there will be something like a point of no return and a sequence where you have to align yourself properly to make planetfall. As for getting back up, engage a boost mode of some kind and again some alignment to get on a proper escape path.

/Merf - Imagines there are plenty of different ways this could all be handled.

 

[Robbie]

There's already a post that discusses flight descent/ascent to planets. See this thread here.

Supercruise would definitely need to be employed at much lower speeds when flying to planet surfaces. Dropping out of SC into normal flight mode would only happen when flying a certain distance above ground. I'd think SC would be in its own instance too when flying across planets. This video here gives a much better idea of how speed and distance could work in ED.

 

[Komemiute]

Just had a thought as I went to bed last night. I have no clue what the plans are, or if there are any at the moment, but here are my thoughts on this:

________


Landing on planets (with atmosphere):

The user will initiate "entry", entering a state similar to hyper space, passing through the atmosphere (be it with or without clouds). No player control at this stage. Once through the upper layers the ship will be in super-sonic speed (similar to super cruise).


Getting around a planet with atmosphere:

Super-sonic cruising allows the player to fly around the world at greater speed than the limited "dog-fighting speed", as that would not be a plausible speed of traversing most planets. As in space, this can be "interdicted".

If they drop down too low the super-sonic will disengage (safety) and you will enter the "dog-fighting speed" zone, where you can fly around to take a look at the scenery, land at ports and crash happily into mountains and so on.


Leaving a planet with atmosphere:

Then, once you're bored or whatever, and want to return to the big black yonder you engage the "escape velocity" and shoot straight up through that "hyper space-like" transition again.

________


Now, I am certain FD has a far more elegant solution in mind, but that's what popped into my head any way, and I thought I'd throw it out there to, if nothing else, make someone laugh at the foolishness of it. It is what it is, not having sat down to ponder the ins and outs of it.

I'd actually see entering and leaving a planet with SC just like we saw the Nostromo entering the atmosphere of the planet in Alien- the first and Aliens too with the Space Marines Dropship..

What we need is another submode of the HUD to give us the right approach angle and course.

 

[Retu81]

I came to think about distances in E.D again - this time not about distances in space, but rather about distances of places on planets (or in planetary orbit).
From what I understand, the speed of a ship is shown in metres per second. A ship flying at a speed of 200m/s is travelling at 720km/h. At this speed travelling from Berlin to New York (ca 6400 km) would take me a bit less than 9 hours. Seems quite long compared to the time I need to travel light-years in space...

Did I make a mistake with the current flight-speeds? Are we supposed to use SC inside a planets athmosphere? How large is the distance, that the mass-locking effect of an earthlike planet will extend into space? (Just as a reference: todays geostationary objects orbit in 36.000 km height)

Is there any info on how these close (yet still immense) distances will be covered?

I think if FD had used same flight dynamics as Independence War series had, this wouldn't be an issue. They're mostly the same anyway: computer trying to maintain set speed and course, lateral thrusters, LDS/FSD, flight assist off mode etc.

There is still one key difference. In I-War, there wasn't any maximum speed for normal flight mode (except speed of light, of course). You could keep boosting and still keep accelerating, reaching speeds in excess of hundreds of km/s. Letting go of acceleration key would cause the ship to slowly decelerate back to the maximum set speed.

I think something like that would solve the problem quite nicely, but it would require redesigning the whole boost mechanic.

 

[Pyros]

I think if FD had used same flight dynamics as Independence War series had, this wouldn't be an issue. They're mostly the same anyway: computer trying to maintain set speed and course, lateral thrusters, LDS/FSD, flight assist off mode etc.

There is still one key difference. In I-War, there wasn't any maximum speed for normal flight mode (except speed of light, of course). You could keep boosting and still keep accelerating, reaching speeds in excess of hundreds of km/s. Letting go of acceleration key would cause the ship to slowly decelerate back to the maximum set speed.

I think something like that would solve the problem quite nicely, but it would require redesigning the whole boost mechanic.

Same could be said about Elite 2: Frontier and FFE flight model. Problem is that they do not provide good dogfighting, particularly in a multiplayer context.

That is why high speed modes through normal space have to be a special mode interrupted (or interruptable) by other ships/large objects. Unless someone finds another solution