Stacking HRPs/SRPs is a Problem

[ozrix84]

So there I was, flying a modest multirole ship, and then I made the mistake of running into a "PvPer".

I say "PvPer," but what I really mean is someone who had dedicated all of their ship's internals to stacking HRPs / SRPs / SBs like they were hoarding toilet paper during a pandemic.
There’s no outplaying someone who flies this sort of meme build. No amount of maneuvering, target selection, or weapon choice is going to matter when the enemy can just shrug off everything and facetank for 10 minutes while casually sipping Lavian brandy, waiting for an easy kill.

Why this is a problem

1. Counters don't exist - If you're not running the exact same dumb build, you're at an immediate and unavoidable disadvantage.
2. Damage ceilings are stupidly high - You need to use a meme weapon loadout just to break through one of these builds.
3. No risk, all reward for griefers - A solo player in a normal combat ship has no chance to kill these builds before they high wake, even if they get the drop on them.
4. It kills loadout diversity - Why bother with cool, skill based builds when the meta is just "stack as many internals as possible and win by default"?
5. The current balancing favors passive, cowardly playstyles

Instead of being able to fly a cool, well-balanced combat ship that fits your playstyle, you have two options:

• Run the same brain-dead HRP/SRP stacking meme build as everyone else, turning your ship into a flying damage sponge with no identity. Fly literally anything else and get deleted within seconds, because the game punishes anything that isn’t min-maxed into an unkillable tank.
• Outpace the other guy by high-waking into GTFO land - if you happen to fly a fast enough ship, that is.

Suggested fixes (that will likely be ignored)

1. Hard limit on HRP/SRP stacking - No more cramming every single internal with reinforcement... Make actual choices matter.
2. Diminishing returns - First few HRPs/SRPs? Ok, but after that, you're just stacking dead weight.

I firmly believe this game would profit from a proper re-balance, not just from endless monetization schemes. Let's not pretend that this is some huge, complicated overhaul. It’s literally a numbers tweak that could be done in one sprint by a single developer..

 

[metatheurgist]

All this was noted years ago. Too late to change now. In fact, I think the problems with the game are intractable and will only be fixed with a new game.

 

[ozrix84]

All this was noted years ago. Too late to change now. In fact, I think the problems with the game are intractable and will only be fixed with a new game.

This isn't some deep rooted engine limitation - it's a numbers tweak. It could be fixed in a single afternoon if Frontier actually cared. But instead, let's all pretend the game is set in stone while griefers keep farming everyone in their floating bricks.

 

[metatheurgist]

Frontier won't do anything to upset the player base. The economy is ruined. The combat meta is set. The socio-poli sim is a plaything for PMFs. Not going to change.

 

[ozrix84]

Frontier won't do anything to upset the player base. The economy is ruined. The combat meta is set. The socio-poli sim is a plaything for PMFs. Not going to change.

You're acting like changing a few reinforcement values is the equivalent of deleting everyone's ships. The combat meta isn’t ‘set’ - it’s just neglected. There’s a difference. If every other live service game can tweak balance, what’s Frontier’s excuse?

The fact that zero devs over at Frontier have taken it upon themselves to fix this tells you everything you need to know about how much they actually care.
If they gave half a damn about their own game, Johnny Coder at Frontier would have already fixed this two years ago, and we wouldn’t even be having this discussion.

 

[metatheurgist]

Johnny Coder won't fix anything because Bob Manager says don't upset the investors.

 

[ozrix84]

Johnny Coder won't fix anything because Bob Manager says don't upset the investors.

Yeah, because investors are definitely sitting around worrying about HRP stacking. If Bob Manager is blocking a basic numbers tweak, that just proves Frontier’s leadership is as incompetent as their balancing.

 

[metatheurgist]

You know what's an easy bug to fix? Anaconda hull mass. If Frontier wanted to demonstrate they cared more about the internal integrity of the game than pandering to players they could've fixed that 10 years ago. You can't get a more crystal clear, terawatt strength signal of intention than that.

 

[ozrix84]

You know what's an easy bug to fix? Anaconda hull mass. If Frontier wanted to demonstrate they cared more about the internal integrity of the game than pandering to players they could've fixed that 10 years ago. You can't get a more crystal clear, terawatt strength signal of intention than that.

Damn, Metatheurgist, you really can’t resist coming back to remind us all how hopeless everything is, huh? We get it. You think nothing will ever change, and you’ve made peace with that.

Some of us, on the other hand, actually believe in pushing for better instead of sitting in a puddle of our own apathy. But hey, if you wanna spend your life being the guy who reminds everyone why they shouldn't bother trying, that's on you. Just don’t expect the rest of us to find it useful.

 

[Jmanis]

This isn't some deep rooted engine limitation - it's a numbers tweak. It could be fixed in a single afternoon if Frontier actually cared. But instead, let's all pretend the game is set in stone while griefers keep farming everyone in their floating bricks.

It's definitely not a "numbers tweak"... if all that happens is a numbers tweak, you'll still have the same issue... if you fly a PvP boat, you'll always be able to beat a non PvP boat. Incidentally, that's purely a numbers game.... the only way you could "fix" this is by making more combat fittings make your ship weaker in combat, which makes utterly no sense, just like hard fitting limits... all that will do is normalise fits which optimise around that limitation, while non- combat pilots still get killed because:

• their build isn't optimised for combat; and
• the pilot doesn't PvP on the regular and so has no idea what they're doing.

What's missing is asymmetric, non-dual purpose defensive fits... ECM in the broad sense, which forces a pirate to fit ECCM (and thereby compromise the strength of their combat fit) if they actually want to be able to lock down a target. In turn, you have enough diversity of ECM that a pirate fit for all occasions will go down very easily to a simple trade vessel with turrets.

Simply put.. pirates want to loot and destroy, non- combat want to escape and evade. The only tools to escape and evade are for fighting... which is a lost cause immediately... a ship specialised to fight regardless of game limits, will defeat one that isn't, always.

Instead, a ship built to destroy shouldn't beat a ship designed to evade, which shouldn't beat a ship designed to capture, which shouldn't beat a ship designed to destroy, with a sliding scale of how much of each of these you want. That's simply not a thing the game supports though.

 

[ozrix84]

It's definitely not a "numbers tweak"...

No, it literally is. The stacking problem exists because the numbers are too high and the mechanics allow it. Reduce the impact of stacking, and you instantly fix 90% of the issue.

if you fly a PvP boat, you'll always be able to beat a non PvP boat.

No kidding, but that’s not the issue here. The issue is PvP boats being completely unkillable. This isn’t about traders vs. PvPers - it’s about PvP builds being forced into one boring, overstacked meta.

the only way you could "fix" this is by making more combat fittings make your ship weaker in combat, which makes utterly no sense, just like hard fitting limits...

No. Just apply diminishing returns so that HRPs/SRPs don’t stack infinitely. That way, players actually have to make trade-offs instead of just piling them on. Right now, the game rewards stacking with zero downside. Fixing that isn’t "making ships weaker" - it’s preventing brainless tank-spam from being the only viable PvP strategy.

all that will do is normalise fits which optimise around that limitation

That’s literally the point. Right now, the meta is already normalized, but in the worst way possible. You either stack internals or you die instantly. Adding a limit or diminishing returns would create build diversity, not kill it.

What's missing is asymmetric, non-dual purpose defensive fits... ECM in the broad sense, which forces a pirate to fit ECCM (and thereby compromise the strength of their combat fit) if they actually want to be able to lock down a target. In turn, you have enough diversity of ECM that a pirate fit for all occasions will go down very easily to a simple trade vessel with turrets.

Jesus Christ, here we go again - "just add a whole new gameplay system instead of fixing the broken numbers we already have." We don’t need ECM. We don’t need a whole new rock-paper-scissors system. We just need HRPs and SBs to stop stacking like goddamn Jenga towers. PvP is already broken enough without adding another half-baked FDev system that will probably introduce more problems than it solves.

ship built to destroy shouldn't beat a ship designed to evade, which shouldn't beat a ship designed to capture, which shouldn't beat a ship designed to destroy

Sure, in an ideal world, maybe. But ED isn’t built like that. The current system is way simpler - damage vs. tank vs. agility. Right now, tank builds have zero trade-offs, which is why the meta is broken. Instead of dreaming up a whole new "ideal" system that Frontier will never implement, how about we just fix what’s actually broken?

 

[metatheurgist]

After 10 years I just know the writing on the wall not's going to change not matter how hard you punch it. There are better things to do.

 

[ozrix84]

After 10 years I just know the writing on the wall not's going to change not matter how hard you punch it. There are better things to do.

Appreciate the bump there, Metatheurgist. Keep the thread alive long enough and maybe, just maybe, Frontier will eventually read it and think about balance for once. Who knows? Anything’s possible - except you having a constructive take, apparently.

 

[metatheurgist]

The construction crew was here 5 years ago with the same reno plan. The owner waved them away saying "We're good!"

 

[Screemonster]

The PvP crowd have been asking for this for years too.

The wild part is that any suggestion of nerfing engineering or reinforcement-stacking was shot down by largely-PvE players because doing so would mean they'd no longer be able to facetank NPCs forever.

The really wild part is when people come along and accuse anyone suggesting a nerf to health pools of "just wanting to make ganking easier" - when, as you correctly pointed out, it's these insane health pools (and not their engineered weapons) that allow them to go around killing at stations with impunity.

 

[GoldenSilver484]

Shield, hull and MRP damage resistances already have diminishing returns, so why can't the health increases of HRPs and GSBs?

Quick, simple change: The first module gives 100% of its health value, the second gives 75%, third 50%, and every subsequent one gives just 25%. The order in which they're affected can be determined by decending order when they're viewed in outfitting.
HRPs and GSBs use seperate diminishing values, so equipping one HRP and GSB would give 100% of their respective health bonuses, but any additional modules of the same type would start losing effectiveness.

 

[Jmanis]

No, it literally is. The stacking problem exists because the numbers are too high and the mechanics allow it. Reduce the impact of stacking, and you instantly fix 90% of the issue.

No kidding, but that’s not the issue here. The issue is PvP boats being completely unkillable. This isn’t about traders vs. PvPers - it’s about PvP builds being forced into one boring, overstacked meta.

They're not unkillable. Most PvP boats actually have pretty reasonable counters... reverb cascade or phasing vs shields, sniping the PP/ corrosive shot for hull tanks,. Both completely circumvent any numbers-games. They're all combat solutions though that take away from your multirole capability though, so you're either fitting a superior combat ship by abandoning your multirole fit, or you die.

Lack of asymmetric options is what leads to overstacked meta builds regardless of hard limits set in the game.... because when asymmetry in options exists, overstacking a particular attribute is always a bad idea.

No. Just apply diminishing returns so that HRPs/SRPs don’t stack infinitely. That way, players actually have to make trade-offs instead of just piling them on. Right now, the game rewards stacking with zero downside. Fixing that isn’t "making ships weaker" - it’s preventing brainless tank-spam from being the only viable PvP strategy.

And how does that save your multirole ship?

Even with diminishing returns, a pure pvp ship will still have X% more than you, because you still didn't fit as many HRPs/SCBs/ whatever as the other ship.

That’s literally the point. Right now, the meta is already normalized, but in the worst way possible. You either stack internals or you die instantly. Adding a limit or diminishing returns would create build diversity, not kill it.

No it wouldn't. People would just build around that limit. That's how PvP works. Optimise for killing.

It will not save your multirole ship which is not optimised the same.

Jesus Christ, here we go again - "just add a whole new gameplay system instead of fixing the broken numbers we already have." We don’t need ECM. We don’t need a whole new rock-paper-scissors system. We just need HRPs and SBs to stop stacking like goddamn Jenga towers. PvP is already broken enough without adding another half-baked FDev system that will probably introduce more problems than it solves.

Works perfectly fine in many games.

As i already said, you can easily overcome the stacked numbers with reverb and pp sniping. But for that to be effective, you need to be fit for combat. A T10, even though it's built for combat, is never going to get those shots off... an FDL would just orbit out of range with long range weapons til you die.

What next? Nerf speed? Nerf everything that even smells OP? You're just moving sand from one pocket to the other until you offer new options that aren't just numbers changes.

Sure, in an ideal world, maybe. But ED isn’t built like that. The current system is way simpler - damage vs. tank vs. agility. Right now, tank builds have zero trade-offs, which is why the meta is broken. Instead of dreaming up a whole new "ideal" system that Frontier will never implement, how about we just fix what’s actually broken?

And how will "tank vs damage vs speed" save your multirole ship, when your opponent is a pure combat build optimising for all three? This is the problem right here.

Multirole fits at just gimping yourself in a pvp fight... the only way you're coming out on top in a scrap with a prepared pvp fighter is an equally prepared combat ship.

Truth is as far as I'm aware, tank builds are just a bad idea in pvp... between long range speedtankers like the FDL/mamba, or close-up phasing cytos, a slow, tanky ship is just a slow moving coffin. @Rubbernuke or @Rebel Yell would have a better idea here though.

No... if you're in a multirole doing whatever isn't combat... you're not here to PvP, you're here to evade it. And for that, the game has almost nothing, and is the real problem here. There's no options to sacrifice your ability to, say, shoot straight, in exchange for a dependable way to evade a combatant.

 

[Rubbernuke]

Long ago shields and hull were set for changes that were screamed down, and this is the result several years on. Such a fundamental pillar of ED won't change now, unbalanced as it is. The compounding factor is engineering, which has made things far worse- rather than have fixed boosts (as with Guardian shield boosters) you have taken something wonky and added extra wonk.

Other factors eroded over time (such as range boosts) making combat vessels even more viable, making multirole and long range even less essential. FD also dropped the ball when they uprated the FdLs powerplant, as well as ruining the Vultures power limits with engineering.

In short these days there is a surplus of power on combat ships through various factors. The sad part is all of this touches more than PvP- it causes issues with C+P and PvE balance, because it allows you to ignore nearly every NPC.

 

[Screemonster]

The sad part is all of this touches more than PvP- it causes issues with C+P and PvE balance, because it allows you to ignore nearly every NPC.

AFK turretboats (and hell, even the mass-police-murder that lead to the 3.0 BGS rebalances) wouldn't be possible if not for the defence inflation that engineering allowed.

Hell, ATR and stations specifically had to be given unobtanium reverb guns to attempt to counter it.

 

[GloatingSwine]

TBH the combination of engineering and stacking has more impact in PvE than PvP because at least PvP players can use tools like cascade rails to punish SCBs.

But the toothpaste isn't going back into the tube at this point.