General / Off-Topic Star Trek Day .... what a show!

[lysan]

 

[Morbad]

As far as I am concerned, sex segregation in sports should never have been a thing, and even if I was in favor of it, I wouldn't value Timcast IRL's opinion on the topic.

 

[lysan]

There is a pronounced tendency for male humans to be significantly larger and stronger than female humans. It's folly to pretend this tendency doesn't exist, but it's far greater folly to pretend that tendencies are a better basis for proscription than the results of actual testing. There are plenty of women who are or will be more capable than the average male infantryman, and to exclude them because most other women are not is nuts.

It's also worth pointing out that observed tendencies aren't wholly biological either. Societal expectations and opportunities are at least as significant and as society becomes more accepting of independent, athletic, women, the gender gap in ability will shrink. As long as biological differences remain, it's never going to be a 50/50 split of men and women being assigned to combat positions (barring extreme situations of total mobilization, or where attrition has dramatically reduced the number of males of combat age), probably won't even be close, but the gap will narrow in the mid to long-term, even if women are held to the same standards.



This is changing. Barring some radical intervention, the ACFT and OPAT are only weeks away from being implemented and are intended to be age and gender-neutral. The requirements are based on MOS, so those not likely to be in physically demanding positions will have an easier time than before, while some of those in more demanding assignments (combat infantry related, for example) will be harder to pass than prior tests. This will probably limit the number of women in direct combat roles, at least until society and training catch up...but those that get through will have been tested to the same standards as their male peers.



Mostly because people have a tendency to be fatter and it's getting harder to find recruits that can meet requirements in the quantities desired. That tendency doesn't mean that everyone is fat.

As for the lowering of standards...where those standard were implemented with good reason, I entirely agree, lowering them is not ideal. However, until society starts producing healthier people, it may be necessary.

Why lower the bar? I agree if you can do the same, be my guest join the forces, however we should not lower the requirements just because people are fat or not in shape.
a 110 pound woman can't lift a 220 pound man, unless she is Cap. Marvel that is also why you don't see pilots that are 6.5 ft tall, just not practical, but again, I don't care I'm not in the military anymore, I'm just a old guy sitting on my porch barking to the moon.

 

[Morbad]

Why lower the bar? I agree if you can do the same, be my guest join the forces, however we should not lower the requirements just because people are fat or not in shape.

I never suggested lowering any rational requirement.

The military has lowered the bar, in some cases, ether because the requirements for certain positions were deemed to be excessive, or they simply couldn't find enough non-fatties to sign up.

a 110 pound woman can't lift a 220 pound man, unless she is Cap. Marvel

I wouldn't expect many 110 pound people to meet the honest physical needs of combat infantry (being able to lift and carry a wounded comrade being a good example), irrespective of sex. However, there is little to gain by automatically excluding everyone of this size, because some certainly can (for example, all of the top ten women in the 49kg (108 pound) weight class of the 2019 IWF Wold Championship can clean and jerk 220+ pounds...which is considerably harder than putting a 220 pound man over your shoulders and carrying him), and evaluation of basic physical capabilities doesn't need to be time consuming or expensive.

that is also why you don't see pilots that are 6.5 ft tall, just not practical

https://media.defense.gov/2007/Nov/16/2000429359/-1/-1/0/071115-F-8523B-238.JPG

I went to highschool with the man in the middle of that picture. I was 6'2" at the time and the top of my head came up to his eyes, so he's at least 6'5". He was an F-16 pilot and, from what I heard, a pretty good one. Probably needed a waver, but he evidently fits in the cockpit.

 

[lysan]

You can always find one exception, but it's not the average.

 

[Morbad]

You can always find one exception, but it's not the average.

What's the benefit to presuming the average in place of what individuals are actually capable of, especially in circumstances where assessing their capabilities is no great difficulty? Have a woman who wants a front-line combat MOS? Let her take the same tests as anyone else (which is essentially what they are doing now). Have a proven pilot who wants to transfer to a fighter wing, but is taller than listed standards? Put the pedals forward, the seat down, slap a helmet on them, and see if they fit.

Understanding tendencies and trends is important for a variety of reasons, but using them to overgeneralize then proscribe limitations on individuals is in no one's best interests.

 

[lysan]

What's the benefit to presuming the average in place of what individuals are actually capable of, especially in circumstances where assessing their capabilities is no great difficulty? Have a woman who wants a front-line combat MOS? Let her take the same tests as anyone else (which is essentially what they are doing now). Have a proven pilot who wants to transfer to a fighter wing, but is taller than listed standards? Put the pedals forward, the seat down, slap a helmet on them, and see if they fit.

Understanding tendencies and trends is important for a variety of reasons, but using them to overgeneralize then proscribe limitations on individuals is in no one's best interests.

I spend many years in the military, trust me, I've seen how it works, thank God I don't have to server under the current mess, I don't care if you're a man or a woman, however if you can't pull your own weight, you're dead weight and need to go somewhere else.

 

[Morbad]

I spend many years in the military, trust me, I've seen how it works, thank God I don't have to server under the current mess, I don't care if you're a man or a woman, however if you can't pull your own weight, you're dead weight and need to go somewhere else.

My experience with the military is limited to second hand accounts of friends and family (I didn't even realize they were replacing the APFT until Demascus mentioned it, as my youngest serving family member was discharged almost a decade ago), but I entirely agree with your later sentiment.