Starting to lose faith in this free-to-kill model

[PANTHER STARFORCE]

some possible mitigation ideas?

Hello everyone. I'm very new to the community (this is my second post) so I hope I haven't missed any salient points... but I've read this entire thread and I had a few thoughts from time spent playing other games that have high griefer frequency.

Specifically I think Frontier could take a few interesting lessons away from Grand Theft Auto V online. An utterly dissimilar game... but I think they tackled the concept of maurading griefers in an interesting way that didn't fragment the population in to disparate zones or servers.

Here are a few ideas in no particular order:

- Give all players who are in "open" play the ability to engage a PASSIVE mode.
this would essentially be a setting which renders you impervious to violent aggression. At the same time it forbids you from deploying hard points and engaging in acts of violent aggression. You remain in the ecosystem and can still bask in the ambient glory of an open persistent galaxy without the spectre of violence looming over you constantly. I realize this may present a balance issue for players who are living the pirate life... so perhaps passive mode can only be set while in controlled space?

- Give players the opportunity to "call for help"
This would be a message sent to all other players with in XYZ vicinity. Setting up this option to use a distress call should be done in advance and should come with a "rescue bounty" set by the player in advance. When you send the distress beacon nearby players would receive a message that says, "Commander XYZ in distress, reward of XXX,XXX credits for assistance" accepting the request would generate a waypoint for intervening players. I can see this aspect really taking on an emergent dynamic... setting a large sum would certainly get people's attention. And just as the Fuel Rats have setup a great way to contribute to the ecosystem I can see bands of players forming Patrol wings that just fly around and make their livings saving others for rescue bounties. It would create some interesting self-organized militias in the more lawless regions Also given that players will attempt to double-dip on this... if you save someone and then turn around and kill them..., the rescue bounty is automatically rescinded.

- If you destroy another players ship without a legitimate bounty, you should be forced to pay the full insurance balance on their ship to restore it with their most expensive loadout. The game will send the grieved player a humiliating apology message on your behalf. "My mother has sent me to my room... here is a sparkly new ship as a token of my undying admiration for you" For balance purposes this should only apply when in controlled space.

I realize that these have probably been discussed before and perhaps I'm not bringing anything new to the table... but I thought I'd try to be constructive as my first real post here.

Cheers everyone!

-EJIRO

 

[Katejina]

- Give all players who are in "open" play the ability to engage a PASSIVE mode.
this would essentially be a setting which renders you impervious to violent aggression. At the same time it forbids you from deploying hard points and engaging in acts of violent aggression. You remain in the ecosystem and can still bask in the ambient glory of an open persistent galaxy without the spectre of violence looming over you constantly. I realize this may present a balance issue for players who are living the pirate life... so perhaps passive mode can only be set while in controlled space?

Absolutely this, with the addition of a cool-down so it cannot be abused. This is how other games I've played work. PvP is generally off unless you enable it, but you can only enable or disable once every 3 minutes to avoid abusing it.

 

[Kaeldian]

Meh, drop to solo turn in the data if it's an issue. Let the mindless pew pew types eat the emptyness of the black.

Let the fact they have less targets speak for itself.

 

[Decado]

Give all players who are in "open" play the ability to engage a PASSIVE mode.
this would essentially be a setting which renders you impervious to violent aggression. At the same time it forbids you from deploying hard points and engaging in acts of violent aggression. You remain in the ecosystem and can still bask in the ambient glory of an open persistent galaxy without the spectre of violence looming over you constantly. I realize this may present a balance issue for players who are living the pirate life... so perhaps passive mode can only be set while in controlled space?

Would be immersion breaking though. It would solve the problem but destroy immersion imho. The ideal solution for me is an effective police force and effective criminal bounty system. Those are things which you can have in the Open world without breaking immersion.

 

[Deleted member 38366]

--- Deleted ---

 

[PANTHER STARFORCE]

So the image I'm starting to get is that most people bent on social play and exploration, trade, etc... have just sworn off open-play? If that's so it's a real shame. It doesn't have to be that way. I think that a few design changes to the ecosystem can make things more balanced.

Again forgive my inexperience as I'm new to the game and the community... but has Frontier engaged with the community around this point? The impression I'm getting from skimming the forums is that this is a long running contentious issue. It would be a great topic for them to address in one of their update letters or videos.

I'm not saying that I have the right answers... but it does seem like a glaring oversight that being a pirate is "easy" in the Elite ecosystem. The reality is that being a Pirate should be hard. It should perhaps be the most challenging of career paths... much as it is in real life... Pirates draw the ire and anger of all the worlds policing powers and generally live hard, short lives. Whether pledged to the pirate faction or not, the behavior should come with a high-risk / high-reward play-style. I think that simply aligning yourself with the pirate faction in powerplay should carry a permanent and instant bounty. Much like any individual who has pledged themselves to a real terror organization becomes a marked man. There is no coming back from that lifestyle.

In fact I think it would be entertaining & dynamic if players who engaged in random acts of violence were eventually forced to join the pirate faction whether they wanted to or not... and then officially enjoy all of the negative publicity that came with it such as a permanent, un-retractable bounty that won't reset... even on death

I think it would be pretty easy to add a little does of ethical morality to the ecosystem and thereby actually ADD to the immersion.

Frontier, Any thoughts?

 

[Ian Doncaster]

but it does seem like a glaring oversight that being a pirate is "easy" in the Elite ecosystem. The reality is that being a Pirate should be hard.

I think the problem is that being a pirate is already really hard - you can easily end up hostile to a major power, it's difficult to rob a trader even for a few tonnes when you don't outclass massively to intimidate - and by outclassing them massively you push your costs right up into unprofitable, and it takes ages to scoop and sell the goods (which may count as stolen for black market value) ... not to mention all the traders who'll self-destruct or fight to the death rather than give up a single tonne, or fly multi-roles which aren't worth the effort. Make it any harder and not even the NPCs will think it's worth their time...

The problem is that being a murderer is really easy.

The original Frontier proposal for piracy had a "pirate reputation" which went up if you robbed someone without killing them, and down if you killed someone - and various benefits as well as the current penalties for being a known pirate. That way pirates would have had a space to exist without messing up traders too badly and without needing to interfere with explorers at all ... while plain murderers would not only have had the full force of the law against them, but pirate factions too. I'm still hopeful that more of that will come in, some day. Once pirates have "legitimate piracy" then the bounty levels (and NPC response) to murders could potentially go right up.

 

[tiger61378]

I think the problem is that being a pirate is already really hard - you can easily end up hostile to a major power, it's difficult to rob a trader even for a few tonnes when you don't outclass massively to intimidate - and by outclassing them massively you push your costs right up into unprofitable, and it takes ages to scoop and sell the goods (which may count as stolen for black market value) ... not to mention all the traders who'll self-destruct or fight to the death rather than give up a single tonne, or fly multi-roles which aren't worth the effort. Make it any harder and not even the NPCs will think it's worth their time...

The problem is that being a murderer is really easy.

The original Frontier proposal for piracy had a "pirate reputation" which went up if you robbed someone without killing them, and down if you killed someone - and various benefits as well as the current penalties for being a known pirate. That way pirates would have had a space to exist without messing up traders too badly and without needing to interfere with explorers at all ... while plain murderers would not only have had the full force of the law against them, but pirate factions too. I'm still hopeful that more of that will come in, some day. Once pirates have "legitimate piracy" then the bounty levels (and NPC response) to murders could potentially go right up.

I really like the idea of "legitimate piracy"...it harkens back to the age of sail, when successful pirates were often approached by contacts for the major powers (Britain, France, Spain, Portugal, etc) and hired to leave their ships alone while attacking their enemies. At that point the pirate became known as a Privateer, and would maintain their status with their chosen great power until they got greedy and went after one of that nation's ships. Even some of the most famous in history were Privateers at one point or another, although most of the well known ones worked for the British Crown against Spain (mostly because they were British by birth, and hated the Spanish more than they valued the ability to attack any ship they felt like).

 

[PANTHER STARFORCE]

Ian, Thank you for bringing more clarity to the matter. Yes I see your point. I've been too general and vague with regards to simply referring to all acts of violence as Piracy

I agree Piracy should be a complex and rewarding play style. While murderers should garner some sort of visible stigma. Again to use GTA V online as a design reference... if a particular player constantly engages in unprovoked violence and opportunistic killing eventually they garner a marker on them. Their dot on the map turns red and stays red until they decide to stop that behavior and then over time it will fade back to white... Mind you that period of time can be days or weeks depending on how crazy they are. It's a simple convention... while it doesn't stop them from committing acts of violence, it does broadcast their intentions well in advance. It lets everyone else know that they're crazy and they should proceed with caution around them... or avoid them all together. Adding some kind of stigmatized marker to murderous players in Elite would let vigilantes and others looking for a fight in the interests of good know that this person is fair game. It should also make the local authorities look the other way when they're killed, even if the murderer was technically (clean) at the time.

I think the problem is that being a pirate is already really hard - you can easily end up hostile to a major power, it's difficult to rob a trader even for a few tonnes when you don't outclass massively to intimidate - and by outclassing them massively you push your costs right up into unprofitable, and it takes ages to scoop and sell the goods (which may count as stolen for black market value) ... not to mention all the traders who'll self-destruct or fight to the death rather than give up a single tonne, or fly multi-roles which aren't worth the effort. Make it any harder and not even the NPCs will think it's worth their time...

The problem is that being a murderer is really easy.

The original Frontier proposal for piracy had a "pirate reputation" which went up if you robbed someone without killing them, and down if you killed someone - and various benefits as well as the current penalties for being a known pirate. That way pirates would have had a space to exist without messing up traders too badly and without needing to interfere with explorers at all ... while plain murderers would not only have had the full force of the law against them, but pirate factions too. I'm still hopeful that more of that will come in, some day. Once pirates have "legitimate piracy" then the bounty levels (and NPC response) to murders could potentially go right up.

 

[Asayanami]

I think the problem is that being a pirate is already really hard - you can easily end up hostile to a major power, it's difficult to rob a trader even for a few tonnes when you don't outclass massively to intimidate - and by outclassing them massively you push your costs right up into unprofitable, and it takes ages to scoop and sell the goods (which may count as stolen for black market value) ... not to mention all the traders who'll self-destruct or fight to the death rather than give up a single tonne, or fly multi-roles which aren't worth the effort. Make it any harder and not even the NPCs will think it's worth their time...

The problem is that being a murderer is really easy.

The original Frontier proposal for piracy had a "pirate reputation" which went up if you robbed someone without killing them, and down if you killed someone - and various benefits as well as the current penalties for being a known pirate. That way pirates would have had a space to exist without messing up traders too badly and without needing to interfere with explorers at all ... while plain murderers would not only have had the full force of the law against them, but pirate factions too. I'm still hopeful that more of that will come in, some day. Once pirates have "legitimate piracy" then the bounty levels (and NPC response) to murders could potentially go right up.

If it worked like that, I would probably become a pirate myself, for the social aspect (that's of course if instancing worked well).
From my point of view: I'm used to sandbox games where everything is fair game. 7 years in EVE, even was a little famous. You were constantly a target, and trust was a huge commodity. Even then, killing without reason (or for the sole purpose of PVP) only happened in truly lawless areas of the game. In high security systems, yes, you could still be ganked, but more often than not, it would be for the killers profit, and not just mindless murder. You carried too much cargo, expensive cargo, he wanted it, so there you go. You shouldn't have had that much cargo.
Even in lawless areas of space pirates would rather ransome people for their lives rather than killing - reason? Instant profit. If you opened fire on someone, he might've been bait for a large fleet, pvp equiped himself or simply have the upper hand for some reason, you could lose your ship in the process, and since you're a pirate, your own security level is so low that you cannot enter high security sppace anymore without the NPC police hunting you down actively. Hence it would be difficult replacing your ship if you lost it, hence ransom is better than murder.

There's no consequence to killing others in ED right now. The bounty system is a joke, as your friends can always claim the bounty and that means just more reason to kill people, easy money.

If you would, for example, become WANTED, and restricted from going into stations in medium and high security space, that would make you think twice about killing people. And if you were willing to go that road anyways, that opens up interesting gameplay. Where/how do you get new ships? How do you restock? Pirate hubs would become a thing for real. And it would become a real profession.

 

[PANTHER STARFORCE]

If you would, for example, become WANTED, and restricted from going into stations in medium and high security space, that would make you think twice about killing people. And if you were willing to go that road anyways, that opens up interesting gameplay. Where/how do you get new ships? How do you restock? Pirate hubs would become a thing for real. And it would become a real profession.

Now THIS is good design! These are the kinds of dynamics Frontier should be contemplating

 

[drkaii]

Glad my thread is doing so well. Now where's my rep?

 

[iain666]

Glad my thread is doing so well. Now where's my rep?

+1, now give me some back

 

[PANTHER STARFORCE]

Glad my thread is doing so well. Now where's my rep?

Rep given! Lots of great design discussion and ideas going on here. Good thread!

 

[drkaii]

Rep party!

But yeah, let's not do that. Probably a forum violation of some sort

Anyway, I'm less interested in rep than I am people responding to my op. There's been a few, and don't get me wrong - the other discussions cropping up have been fascinating reads

 

[Anuset]

With most of you. I started playing before Wings update, got frustrated a few times with the base game though flew through quite a few busy systems with minor PVP interactions. Mostly positive.

Just came back a week or so ago with the aspirations of Imperial ships. Long story short I ended up loosing two T6s fully laiden with little chance to do anything. Having been previously 100% open play, I'm done with that. Solo or private group until MASSIVE changes ensue.

It's a shame as I do enjoy playing with others and don't mind random encounters. Hell I played EVE for years. Though the same thing pulled me from EVE permanently.

I like the ability to say "nope, I'm not going to be ganked" with Solo and Group. The problem is how empty it is and anti-social. It does seem the two won't work together well though.

 

[Zulu Romeo]

What disgusts me right now is not so much the act of attacking and killing players, or stealing from them, but the threat of doing some or more of these things for reasons outside of the game.

One example was that closed thread from the player claiming to have killed scores of players as a protest over the lack of a Federal Corvette from the devs. While the reasons are silly (it will always be ready when it's ready) it speaks volumes when someone is willing to take their frustrations out on the innocent and uninvolved, people who can't do anything about the situation anyway. This sort of meta gaming and people getting their kicks from it is just unsettling.

Piracy itself is in a particularly difficult position. I agree that the pirate reputation system would have been a fantastic idea to encourage "honourable" piracy and theft, and distinguish it from out and out psychopathy and griefing. The issue of the Suicidewinder exploit to circumvent Wanted statuses needs to be addressed too. It is a neat trick to do, and for sure such ingenuity is to be applauded, but the problem is that it is a 100% foolproof and reliable way to get back to your situation. I like the idea of stations preventing docking at all, but then it could penalise the new player making a genuine mistake. If it became very difficult to try and do this, say by finding a way to restrict ship transfers such as the shipyard doing routine checks on criminal status in the same manner as a kill warrant scan upon arrival, and with potential penalties if caught (the station would turn red after a random period of time) then it would make things exciting. Of course there'd be the usual objections to such a move, but if you break the law, them's the breaks.