[Suggestion] Beyond - If you do not have access to station facilities, sell LEGAL cargo on the Black Market

[NeilF]

[Suggestion] Beyond - If you do not have access to station facilities, sell LEGAL cargo on the Black Market

I'd like to suggest a potential small change to Beyond's mechanics - If you have legal (non-stolen) cargo on board, but don't have access to the Commodity Market, you can still sell it if there's a Black Market.


If I've understood, if you have a fine/bounty and arrive at a station, you can find yourself unable to use many of its facilities, eg: The Commodity Market.

First and foremost, I'd hope that you can still sell stolen & illegal goods (I originally only put "illegal" but meant "stolen" as well) on the Black Market (if there is one). If this facility is also removed, that would be a mistake IMHO.

If you have any legal good, and cannot access the Commodity Market, you should simply then be able to sell them on the Black Market too (obviously at the same/lower price than the Commodity Market).


This is a small change in my mind, but means if you have legal cargo on board, but don't have access to the Commodity Market, you can still sell it if there's a Black Market. eg: You are a pirate and have legal cargo. Or you hand in a mission and are given commodities.

This seems simple, logical and easy to add IMHO.



Scale Of The Change?
Could be as simple as when your list of cargo for the black market is shown... Currently:-

IF (cargo.stolen = "YES" OR cargo.state= "ILLEGAL") show on black market​

After my proposal:-

IF (cargo.stolen = "YES" OR cargo.state = "ILLEGAL" OR station.facilities = "OFF") show on Black Market​

^ A very simple logic change. So could be as simple as something like that, maybe with a secondary condition around its price if legal. Maybe with a bit of update on the UI to show its state (not-stolen, not-illegal) etc.

Spoiler

Two example scenarios I made later in the thread to try and set the scene?

Passenger Mission
You have two passenger missions and arrive at your destination. You have a bounty there you naughty boy, so facilities are disabled.

However, you can complete your passenger missions at least. So you complete the first passenger mission and they give you 4t of cargo. This fills up your cargo space. As the second passenger missions wants to give you some cargo too as payment you now cannot complete it.

Upshot, you have to jettison the cargo. If you'd had the same cargo as stolen you'd have been able to sell it (Black Market). If you'd even had illegal cargo, same again. But you cannot sell the legal cargo.

If the Black Market simply also accepted legal/non-stolen cargo (when you cannot access the Commodity Market - a single IF condition most likely), you could then at least sell the 4t of cargo from the 1st mission (no doubt at a bit of a loss). But surely this is less needlessly spiteful/pointless as having to jettison it.

Note: This sort of scenario would no doubt be repeated in numerous guises. Where you'd ultimately have to throw legal cargo away, which had instead been stolen or illegal, you'd have been abe to sell it.

PvP Piracy at CG
CGs are in reality just about the only go-to mechanics PvP Pirates have available to them to orchestrate gameplay. ps: Please don't confuse these individuals witl murder-hobos.

So in this scenario the CMDR will steal cargo from a trader, and then deliver the cargo to the station at least to then also take part in the CG, no doubt to very very very lesser degree. But at least they will get a small bonus for taking part in the CG (no doubt from the lowest tier).

So if the pirate uses a limpet they get stolen cargo and can hand it in (on the Black Market). Fine!

And if the Pirate instead liaises with the Trade, who then simply jettison some cargo, again fine! It's stolen cargo. (Why would the Trader do this? Because they can probably give the Pirate less cargo in this fashion than messy limpets would otherwise chuck out of their cargo hatch).

However, if the Pirate instead liaises with the Trade, makes the mistake of abandoning the cargo, bizarely the pirate is now stuffed! They cannot hand it in! What's gained by this?



Ultimately, for a very minor change to the Black Market screen (to include legal/non-stolen) cargo if you have a fine/bounty, some needless rough edges are take out of the gameplay, and bit of sensible gameplay is put in place.

 

[DMaster]

I guess it is a part of the punishment for doing crimes! Sure, it would be annoying to arrive with legal goods and see, that you can not sell your goods, but this will perhaps tell you to not do crimes in the future.

 

[sedilbur]

You probably will go to anarchy system to sell them.

This is a punishment or some kind of.

I guess you will not be able to swap or buy any ships with cargo in the station (elsewhere than anarchy)

 

[Iskariot]

I'd like to suggest a potential small change to Beyond's mechanics - If you have legal cargo on board, but don't have access to the Commodity Market, you can still sell it if there's a Black Market.


If I've understood, if you have a fine/bounty and arrive at a station, you can find yourself unable to use many of its facilities, eg: The Commodity Market.

First and foremost, I'd hope that you can still sell illegal goods on the Black Market (if there is one). If this facility is also removed, that would be a mistake IMHO.

If you have any legal good, and cannot access the Commodity Market, you should simply then be able to sell them on the Black Market too (obviously at the same/lower price than the Commodity Market).


This is a small change in my mind, but means if you have legal cargo on board, but don't have access to the Commodity Market, you can still sell it if there's a Black Market. eg: You are a pirate and have legal cargo. Or you hand in a mission and are given commodities.

This seems simple, logical and easy to add IMHO.

Spoiler

As the your list of cargo for the black market is show... Currently:-

IF (cargo.state = "ILLEGAL") show on black market


After my proposal:-

IF (cargo.state = "ILLEGAL" OR station.facilities = "OFF") show on black market


^ A very simply logic change. Could be as simple as something like that, maybe with a secondary condition around its price if legal.

I think that is an excellent idea. It seems logical.
But....

If they are regular commodities you should have to sell at a loss compared to the regular market in the station. Perhaps 10 %.
Because why would a black market trader take the risk to do business with a shady customer? They would leap to the chance to make a bit of extra profit.

 

[NeilF]

I guess it is a part of the punishment for doing crimes! Sure, it would be annoying to arrive with legal goods and see, that you can not sell your goods, but this will perhaps tell you to not do crimes in the future.

So if I have 10t of illegal Gold, and 10t of legal Gold, what is being achieves - assuming I don't have access to the Commodity market - of me only being able to sell 10t of it to a Black Market (if one exists).

What is being achieved by needlessly stopping me selling that other 10t of legal cargo on the Black Market, which surely they'd prefer to my illegal 10t in truth?

 

[NeilF]

I think that is an excellent idea. It seems logical.
But....

If they are regular commodities you should have to sell at a loss. Perhaps 10 to 20 %.

Thank you. Not allowing legal cargo to be sold when there's Black Market sitting there just seems a needless hurdle/frustration.


As for "regular" commodities? You mean "legal"? Yes, if you end up selling legal good on the Black Market it should be for less. And TBH I'm not sure how the Black Market currently works as regards pricing?. Indeed, it may also suit perfectly. eg: If you sell 1t of legal Gold (Commodity Market) and 1t of illegal Gold (Black Market), surely the illegal Gold is already being sold at a lower price?


But yes, a single extra IF condition could adjust price as desired. eg when selling on the Black Market:-

IF (cargo.state = "LEGAL") price = cargo.price * 0.90 ; A 10% drop

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

My suggestion, even though it can't be done for 3.0/2.5 what ever it will be called, so maybe down the line (2.6 or 3.1).

Black Markets
These places are for smuggling only and should be available in all systems that have some kind of security and banned/illegal (not stolen) goods. This is where you should be smuggling on the black market and it should be a way to influence the BGS lead faction in a negative way. There should also be smuggling missions from these places possible from rival factions or an unknown.

Add another contact:
Fence
Is available in all systems that have security - This is where you should be able to sell you ill gotten goods but at a discounted price due to the risks/bribes involved, whether it is stolen or not. The lower the sec the smaller the dicounted price. There could also be missions from a fence that include stealing specific items from specific NPC's for a good reward.

Anarchy Systems
Anarchy systems should not have or need a fence or black market as all items should be sellable on the commodities markets.

I also think that there should be higher prices the lower the security to incentivise players to trade in the rougher parts of town, but have the risk of being pirated. Basically the higher the risk, the higher the reward for traders. Obviously demand will also play a part in commodity price.

There should be a Jammer utility that can delay the security response, but it needs recharging so can't be spammed. These should be illegal modules and if scanned with one you could be fined, maybe in a Hi Sec a bounty. These should only be available in Anarchy systems.

But as a stop gap, maybe allow black markets to sell anything at a discount apart from the items that are to be smuggled.

 

[CMDR-AD]

If selling "legal" goods, then a black market would be an interesting idea, and would certainly pay less.

About the only way I can imagine buying "legal" goods off somebody who was trying to lay low, would be to pay them a good bit less than market value, so I could turn around and take those profits for myself. After all, it's that poor guy's problem why he can't sell for a good price, not mine.

 

[bigity]

I'd like to suggest a potential small change to Beyond's mechanics - If you have legal cargo on board, but don't have access to the Commodity Market, you can still sell it if there's a Black Market.


If I've understood, if you have a fine/bounty and arrive at a station, you can find yourself unable to use many of its facilities, eg: The Commodity Market.

First and foremost, I'd hope that you can still sell illegal goods on the Black Market (if there is one). If this facility is also removed, that would be a mistake IMHO.

If you have any legal good, and cannot access the Commodity Market, you should simply then be able to sell them on the Black Market too (obviously at the same/lower price than the Commodity Market).


This is a small change in my mind, but means if you have legal cargo on board, but don't have access to the Commodity Market, you can still sell it if there's a Black Market. eg: You are a pirate and have legal cargo. Or you hand in a mission and are given commodities.

This seems simple, logical and easy to add IMHO.

Spoiler

As the your list of cargo for the black market is show... Currently:-

IF (cargo.state = "ILLEGAL") show on black market​

After my proposal:-

IF (cargo.state = "ILLEGAL" OR station.facilities = "OFF") show on black market​

^ A very simply logic change. Could be as simple as something like that, maybe with a secondary condition around its price if legal.

Agreed. If someone is willing to buy X illegal items for Y credits, why wouldn't they pay Y for legal items of the same type?

While we are at it, fix the Archon Delaine black market bonus in exploited systems too.

 

[MissMeYet]

I'd like to suggest a potential small change to Beyond's mechanics - If you have legal cargo on board, but don't have access to the Commodity Market, you can still sell it if there's a Black Market.

Silly idea. Black Marketers deal in hard-to-get, high profit, high risk items. The art, so to speak, of being a black marketer is to fly under the radar; once he starts volume dealing in cut rate vegetables and whatnot, people will start asking questions. "Why are your tomatoes so cheap?" Generally speaking, drug dealers/users don't ask such questions of the black marketer. He only has to worry about cops/DEA types. So long as he doesn't rip anyone off that is.

 

[Crank Larson]

Black Marketers deal in hard-to-get, high profit, high risk items.

No they don't. Black Market is the term given to cover any illegal trade. This doesn't always mean high risk, high profit - it can simply be avoiding taxes.

Personally, I think Neil's suggestion makes perfect sense. At the point you can dock anonymously, what is to stop you wandering around the station and speaking to your network of people there? It is a lot easier to get rid of legal items illegally than it is to get rid of illegal items illegally...

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

No they don't. Black Market is the term given to cover any illegal trade. This doesn't always mean high risk, high profit - it can simply be avoiding taxes.

Personally, I think Neil's suggestion makes perfect sense. At the point you can dock anonymously, what is to stop you wandering around the station and speaking to your network of people there? It is a lot easier to get rid of legal items illegally than it is to get rid of illegal items illegally...

Nope, that is not right it is:

Black Market: An illegal traffic or trade in officially controlled or scarce commodities. So stuff like drugs, guns, ivory. It's basically what you sell your smuggleds good to.

Stolen items are a different matter. That is what a Fence is for. Fence meaning: A person who deals in stolen goods.

 

[MissMeYet]

No they don't. Black Market is the term given to cover any illegal trade. This doesn't always mean high risk, high profit - it can simply be avoiding taxes.

LOL! Check out Venezuela. Gosh-darned EGGS are on the black market because the government has restricted sales to State-owned stores only, at wildly under-cost prices.

Black marketers deal in things that the State has deemed illegal/restricted. Black marketers don't care one whit about a person's legal standing or his/her ability to sell "legally", unless that person ALSO has restricted/illegal items.

 

[NeilF]

Silly idea. Black Marketers deal in hard-to-get, high profit, high risk items. The art, so to speak, of being a black marketer is to fly under the radar; once he starts volume dealing in cut rate vegetables and whatnot, people will start asking questions. "Why are your tomatoes so cheap?" Generally speaking, drug dealers/users don't ask such questions of the black marketer. He only has to worry about cops/DEA types. So long as he doesn't rip anyone off that is.

OOOOHH Sorry! I think this be my mistake? I of course mean STOLEN and ILLEGAL, not just ILLEGAL! May bad! Is this confusing people onto a side matter?

I think other folks have simply translated my wrong terminolgy into what I meant?

EDIT: There fixed. It now says "illegal or stolen" in my description where it previously said just "illegal".



BUT, the premise still stands, and I can't see the reason for it being a "silly idea"? Far from it TBH!

I rock up to a station with 1t of Gold and 1t of stolen Gold. I have a fine/bounty so do not have access to the Commodity Market. Why can't I sell 2t of Gold on the Black Market?

 

[CMDR-AD]

But yes, a single extra IF condition could adjust price as desired. eg when selling on the Black Market:-

IF (cargo.state = "LEGAL") price = cargo.price * 0.90 ; A 10% drop

An added bit of depth to the equation could vary the price offered to CMDRs who must connect anonymously based on the demand for the legal cargo in-system.

For some cargo, which has higher demand, yea, I might pay a bit closer to market value, with high confidence that I can quickly turn a profit.

But for low demand cargo, or cargo at zero demand? To be honest, I don't know if I'd bother to buy it at all.

Of course, this is tough luck for the CMDR with local problems. But hey, this is a rather decent simulation of just part of those problem.

 

[NeilF]

An added bit of depth to the equation could vary the price offered to CMDRs who must connect anonymously based on the demand for the legal cargo in-system.

For some cargo, which has higher demand, yea, I might pay a bit closer to market value, with high confidence that I can quickly turn a profit.

But for low demand cargo, or cargo at zero demand? To be honest, I don't know if I'd bother to buy it at all.

Of course, this is tough luck for the CMDR with local problems. But hey, this is a rather decent simulation of just part of those problem.

TBH, I don't think the price is that important. It simply needs to be a fair way to sell legal (not-stolen/not-illegal) cargo if you cannot access the Commodity Market.

As long as the price is fair that's good enough in my book.

 

[NeilF]

Nope, that is not right it is:

Black Market: An illegal traffic or trade in officially controlled or scarce commodities. So stuff like drugs, guns, ivory. It's basically what you sell your smuggleds good to.

Stolen items are a different matter. That is what a Fence is for. Fence meaning: A person who deals in stolen goods.

Aren't you confusing what you'd like, with what actually is in the game?

Unless I'm missing something, if you have stolen goods or illegal goods, you can sell them on the Black Market in ED? ie: They will appear in your list of cargo applicable to sell on the Station's Black Market.

All I'm suggesting is, if you do not have access to the Commodity Market, then your other cargo (not-stolen, not-illegal) is also listed and can be sold (if applicable etc).

 

[Crank Larson]

Nope, that is not right it is:

Black Market: An illegal traffic or trade in officially controlled or scarce commodities. So stuff like drugs, guns, ivory. It's basically what you sell your smuggleds good to.

Stolen items are a different matter. That is what a Fence is for. Fence meaning: A person who deals in stolen goods.

You can sell stolen items on the black market. You can sell not stolen items on the black market. The whole point about the black market is that it involves clandestine dealing, avoiding some legal requirement (tax, quality, whatever). It covers any illegal trade (though some illegal trades have more specific names, e.g. fencing).

 

[CMDR-AD]

As long as the price is fair that's good enough in my book.

In a large way, however, getting a fair price is what the controlled market is for. Fairness doesn't really exist, when a CMDR is asking some shady contact to please take some stuff off their hands. The shady buyer isn't a charity. And it's tough that CMDR is in a hard spot. But the black market buyer is looking for a profit, too. A CMDR who's in a pinch is easy to take advantage of, and the black market dealer's offer is really a "take it or leave it" situation.

Of course, I'm writing this from the perspective of imagining a quite vivid, living sense of the Elite galaxy, of dealing with legal burdens, of financial and/or situational woe. A black market isn't a fair or sanctioned place, really. Sometimes, advantages are going to be taken of those who are in a bad spot.

EDIT: I'm imagining here looking at an NPC offering me 50% of my cargo value and thinking... "Sorry piece of garbage." Then maybe having to take the offer, anyway. That's a sort of interesting layer of interaction that might crop up, by letting things get a bit "unfair" on this front.

 

[Terry Bruge-Hiplo]

TBH, I don't think the price is that important. It simply needs to be a fair way to sell legal (not-stolen/not-illegal) cargo if you cannot access the Commodity Market.

As long as the price is fair that's good enough in my book.

Aren't you confusing what you'd like, with what actually is in the game?

Initial thoughts: it should be a big reduction in price, if so. What's the point of having restricted services if you can still just go about your business as normal? Why not have a shady Universal Cartographics dealer who pays a fair price too if so?

There's gotta be some incentive to go to Anarchies too, no?