Suggestion: Get rid of the hollow square default for other players

[CmdrKafka]

Remove the default 'hollow square' that appears on your radar for other players and replace it with solid just like any NPC ship. Show hollow square only for friends and wingmates or after you actually scan a ship and discover it is another commander.

Why? The so called griefers/gankers..etc.. target the hollow squares for interdiction and destruction and ignore NPC ships. This is unrealistic and other players should not be highlighted for attack in this manner. It's like the game has a giant arrow pointing them out, "attack me!". Players can still be identified by scanning, but this will increase the difficulty enough to make it easier for players to slip past blockades..etc.. and will be more realistic as well.

Currently players just switch to private group or solo to get past blockades anyway, so this change would encourage more open play.

 

[CmdrKafka]

This suggestion idea came from this thread started by CenturionPuch
Thank you

 

[Konnivar]

I know for a fact that hollow squares aren't the main way griefers/gankers acquire targets. Many have their instance bandwidth shown in the bottom left of their screen by pressing ctrl+b in game. Any value above 100 indicates at least one other player is in the instance. Once they know someone else is in their instance they look at the chat panel and look at local contacts (same place where friends are). From there they can identify which ships to target in the contacts panel to scan and grief/gank.

The hollow square is one of the final things that someone who is targeting other players use to acquire a target, getting rid of it would simply mildly inconvenience them for the 10 extra seconds it takes to scan the NPC ships of the same type.

 

[JosiahD]

I know for a fact that hollow squares aren't the main way griefers/gankers acquire targets. Many have their instance bandwidth shown in the bottom left of their screen by pressing ctrl+b in game. Any value above 100 indicates at least one other player is in the instance. Once they know someone else is in their instance they look at the chat panel and look at local contacts (same place where friends are). From there they can identify which ships to target in the contacts panel to scan and grief/gank.

The hollow square is one of the final things that someone who is targeting other players use to acquire a target, getting rid of it would simply mildly inconvenience them for the 10 extra seconds it takes to scan the NPC ships of the same type.

While that may be so, that doesn't mean the hollow square shouldn't go. And if it is that insignificant, as in other methods are easy to use such as a scan, then even more reason for it to go and it won't be missed. But I don't think Frontier has any plans to remove it.

 

[concentric]

Imho removing the hollow square would make it even harder for potential victims.
After all, the hollow square also helps the potential victim to spot potential griefers on their radar.
Without it, if you're afraid of getting griefed you'd have to scan all the ships in your range for other cmdrs all the time and you'd get tired of it pretty soon for sure.
But in my experience after some time you get the hang of not getting killed by griefers...

 

[CmdrKafka]

I know for a fact that hollow squares aren't the main way griefers/gankers acquire targets. Many have their instance bandwidth shown in the bottom left of their screen by pressing ctrl+b in game. Any value above 100 indicates at least one other player is in the instance. Once they know someone else is in their instance they look at the chat panel and look at local contacts (same place where friends are). From there they can identify which ships to target in the contacts panel to scan and grief/gank.

The hollow square is one of the final things that someone who is targeting other players use to acquire a target, getting rid of it would simply mildly inconvenience them for the 10 extra seconds it takes to scan the NPC ships of the same type.

Yes, I am sure many use the bandwidth method of knowing there is someone in your instance, but it would still take some time, as you said ... to scan all the ships and find the commander. Those extra seconds might be all a player needs to escape interdiction. This is not meant to be a way to avoid interdictions entirely; it just presents a more realistic scenario. While the hollow square also let's potential victims see their enemy, that is also unrealistic just the same.

 

[RhymeRhyme]

Terroble idea. I love player interaction. They are hard enough to find...

 

[MickyG1982]

And another one for the ignore list....

Anyway OP (it isn't you). You could get rid of the hollow boxes, I can get with that, but every Commander has CMDR in front of their name, it really wouldn't change anything much. Other than they have to scan you first, which is easy enough once you scan the first couple of ships, plus if you use chat your ship is automatically tagged as a player anyway so you are easily discoverable.

It might be worth making all ships have the same icon until they are scanned however...

 

[BaddMongo]

Works both ways. The best way to avoid getting ganked is to take avoidance measures as soon as you see you have a hollow square bearing down on you. Remove hollow squares and then you would have no way of knowing if that solid square creeping up behind you on your scanner while you are in SC is just a NPC or an actual player intent on killing you... until it's too late.

 

[CAPT. Ho Chi Minge]

Terroble idea. I love player interaction. They are hard enough to find...

Does that also include logging out when said interaction goes wrong?.

 

[EdzUp]

I suggested loads of times to get rid of it and the Cmdr moniker for pilots as this paints you as a target.

 

[Merkk]

I love it when people say "Play however you like" but as soon as PVP is involved, people go "Naw you're a griefing a-hole get banned you're an idiot"
I suggest anyone wanting this removal to actually have a glowing marker so more people gank them.

 

[Allchemyst]

I love it when people say "Play however you like" but as soon as PVP is involved, people go "Naw you're a griefing a-hole get banned you're an idiot"
I suggest anyone wanting this removal to actually have a glowing marker so more people gank them.

Explorers can't force a PVPer they meet to explore,

Traders can't force a PVPer they encounter to do trading,

Bounty Hunters don't get to force a PVPer they meet to do bounty hunting,

But any PVPer, at all time, gets to force anyone around him to do either do PVP, flee or die irrevocably (if they so choose to ignore him).

These complaints are valid ; PVP is downleveling, as in it lowers the field of possible interactions between players to the desired style of the most hostile player in an instance, every time. as a PVPer, other players are a necessary part of your gameplay. You, however, are not a part of theirs, and sometimes they simply don't want you in their experience at all.

The most successful MMOs have all acknowledged this fact and put PKers of all stripes in a very airtight box so as to allow everyone to play "the way they want". In this game, you do not get to play "the way you want" around PVPers and murder-hobos, unless you're one of them.


Althought I'll say the hysterical ad hominem attacks and comments on PVPer's reroductive frustration they face every time they want to defend their play style - to which they are entitled - are really unworthy of a public place...

 

[CAPT. Ho Chi Minge]

I love it when people say "Play however you like" but as soon as PVP is involved, people go "Naw you're a griefing a-hole get banned you're an idiot"
I suggest anyone wanting this removal to actually have a glowing marker so more people gank them.

Id guess its because the guy they call a griefer (in this thread) is known for hanging around the starter systems ganking newbie scrubs. Then logs out when he gets his posterior handed to him.

 

[Andovar]

Imho removing the hollow square would make it even harder for potential victims.
After all, the hollow square also helps the potential victim to spot potential griefers on their radar.
Without it, if you're afraid of getting griefed you'd have to scan all the ships in your range for other cmdrs all the time and you'd get tired of it pretty soon for sure.
But in my experience after some time you get the hang of not getting killed by griefers...

Pretty much this.
No hollow squares would make matters worse. It would give people a false sense of security, and would do little to impede the gankers.
When I'm flying around in a non-combat ship, I want to be able to see the hollow squares so I can be on guard, so I can see where they are on the radar, and react accordingly if necessary.

 

[CMDR Cosmic Spacehead]

It works both ways. But more in the attackers favour, not the other way around, unfortunately. But rep for effort!

If you remove the hollow square/triangles attackers can still spot players very easily, even without a scan.
"CMDR" tags are the obvious choice, but bandwidth, flying style(NPC's fly straight at 75% throttle, players don't), etc etc also give it away.

As a victim, you lose essential situational awareness, unless you scan every single target before proceeding to your destination.
IMHO, that would become very old, very quickly.

It'd be extremely easy for a hostile CMDR to sit in supercruise above a star, just targeting whatever jumps in, and scanning away.
As a victim, you'd be generally scanned on arrival. But you wouldn't notice for a while, so it would actually be worse than the current situation.

So, it's a no from me I'm afraid.
(And I hate shooting down ideas! )

CMDR Cosmic Spacehead

 

[CmdrKafka]

It works both ways. But more in the attackers favour, not the other way around, unfortunately. But rep for effort!

If you remove the hollow square/triangles attackers can still spot players very easily, even without a scan.
"CMDR" tags are the obvious choice, but bandwidth, flying style(NPC's fly straight at 75% throttle, players don't), etc etc also give it away.

As a victim, you lose essential situational awareness, unless you scan every single target before proceeding to your destination.
IMHO, that would become very old, very quickly.

It'd be extremely easy for a hostile CMDR to sit in supercruise above a star, just targeting whatever jumps in, and scanning away.
As a victim, you'd be generally scanned on arrival. But you wouldn't notice for a while, so it would actually be worse than the current situation.

So, it's a no from me I'm afraid.
(And I hate shooting down ideas! )

CMDR Cosmic Spacehead

@spacehead, good reply... although it was my suggestion I must admit these are valid points you and others have made. However... I still would prefer no hollow squares simply because;

1. It's not realistic... there is not a good enough radar/scanning system that can differentiate a ship based on the person at the controls alone. This seems very contrived to me. All ships, at least initially, should look the same just for the sake of realism if nothing else. Perhaps to even things a bit then IF you get scanned by another player maybe their box should turn hollow at the same time, so the potential victim becomes aware of the threat immediately and take evasive action. (also start indicating "scan detected" in SC)

2. It makes it harder for both attackers and victims... but I think it tips the balance slightly in favour of the victim, it gives them a few more seconds that would not otherwise have had. It also just adds a little more work for attackers, which I think is totally fair if that is what they want to do... let them, but don't make it so easy as it is now.

3. It also opens up possibilities for scanner hacking and other interesting engineering mods to falsify your apparent commander name (ie remove the CMDR moniker on initial scan, require the full scan before it detects the false signature)

 

[Andovar]

1. It's not realistic...

Maybe not, but there's still ways we could explain it. Plus for me, gameplay trumps realism.

2. It makes it harder for both attackers and victims... but I think it tips the balance slightly in favour of the victim, it gives them a few more seconds that would not otherwise have had. It also just adds a little more work for attackers, which I think is totally fair if that is what they want to do... let them, but don't make it so easy as it is now.

I disagree. You're not getting "a few more seconds" because you don't know anyone is there to begin with. Unless your general assumption, as you drop into every system, is that every solid square is a potential attacking cmdr, and you have to immediately start performing evasive procedures. That sounds utterly exhausting.

3. It also opens up possibilities for scanner hacking and other interesting engineering mods to falsify your apparent commander name (ie remove the CMDR moniker on initial scan, require the full scan before it detects the false signature)

I like this idea. Definitely the potential for some new gameplay elements here (even with hollow squares).


I play mostly in open, and have been ganked a few times, but it hasn't made me feel like I need to retreat to private or solo. But if the hollow squares went away, and I have no way of identifying a potential attacker until it's too late, then yeah, I'd likely be heading to PG/solo.

 

[CmdrKafka]

I disagree. You're not getting "a few more seconds" because you don't know anyone is there to begin with. Unless your general assumption, as you drop into every system, is that every solid square is a potential attacking cmdr, and you have to immediately start performing evasive procedures. That sounds utterly exhausting.

The 'few seconds' I am talking about is the time it takes for the potential attacker to identify the target as a player. Right now they can just sit there and the moment they see the hollow square they are on you.... it can be VERY fast sometimes if they are positioned correctly. The few seconds is their time to scan.... it would not be instant.

My assumption on entering a system is that all contacts are hostile, NPC or not... and especially if they are maneuvering in, or already behind me. Although an NPC is not typically a threat, I would prefer not be interdicted at all (Anaconda with a 3D shield... and no weapons). This seems like normal to me, not exhausting, just smart flying.

 

[Andovar]

The 'few seconds' I am talking about is the time it takes for the potential attacker to identify the target as a player. Right now they can just sit there and the moment they see the hollow square they are on you.... it can be VERY fast sometimes if they are positioned correctly. The few seconds is their time to scan.... it would not be instant.

My assumption on entering a system is that all contacts are hostile, NPC or not... and especially if they are maneuvering in, or already behind me. Although an NPC is not typically a threat, I would prefer not be interdicted at all (Anaconda with a 3D shield... and no weapons). This seems like normal to me, not exhausting, just smart flying.

I understand that it takes them a few seconds to do that, but it doesn't matter unless you know they're a cmdr, which you won't. For me personally, no NPC is a threat. I don't want to turn every single NPC in every system into a potential threat, which is precisely what hiding the hollow box does.

I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.