I agree!
Suggestion: Get rid of the hollow square default for other players
- Thread starter CmdrKafka
- Start date
- Status
Elite is meant to be in a >dangerous< environment, if you can't handle the heat then don't play open. You sign off any right of "I want to be alone" when you jump in open, don't complain to others when someone engages with you, whether you like it or not. It is fully within the rules of the game.
Refer to the first point.
Let me quote the main website:
"Become Elite
Create your Legend.
Starting with only a small starship and a few credits, do whatever it takes to earn the skill, knowledge, wealth and power to stand among the ranks of the Elite."
"Play your way
Live a Real Life On The Galactic Frontier.
As you play, your actions, experience and story influence a unique connected gaming experience and an evolving narrative that provides ever-changing multiplayer gameplay opportunities."
"Play your way
Experience infinite freedom as you earn the skill, knowledge, wealth and power to stand among the ranks of the Elite."
Complaining about people combat logging is "unworthy of a public space"? Do you know how stupid that is? You are not entitled to anything more than anyone else, stop with the underhanded censorship.
Great, you got your crap together and did something against an attack, if you hate it so much then get a police system going, it's all up to you people to defend yourselves.
Last edited:
Plus one for this idea.
Okay, I'll start with the end part, because it got me lauging quite violently.
Seriously, go back and return to my previous post's last sentence, which you cannot possibly have read with any organ even remotely related to sight...
I was clearly condemning CenturionPuch's insult on RhymeRhyme's sexuality. Incidentally, I was defending the PVPers right to argue for their ideas and their preferred gameplay without being verbally assaulted and insulted.
How hilarious is it that the first person to respond to me was an angry PVPer who didn't even bother to properly understand my post and ended up insulting me! That's brilliant!
So, word to the wise : The moment you write the word "stupid" - or any denigrating epithet for that matter - on the subject of another human being, take a deep breath, go for a walk, smell a couple flowers, and pick a tone that better suits your talent.
Now, on the first part, which was, I'll say, a good foretaste of the second's quality :
You assume a tremendous amount of things from very little, my endearing friend. I do, in fact, play in Solo 100% of the time. I don't have time to waste on this game's asymmetrical, costly PVP's bull in general, and I'm quite content to leave the bloody mess that is Open to others.
However, the fact is, simply and plainly, that not everyone believes the possibility for free-for-all PVP at all times is desirable even in Open - not within the current set of rules, at least. No matter how impolitely you argue against this, it remains an opinion as valid as yours on what the game could become. Some enjoy randomly meeting other people they have never met, while others actually would like Open as it is right now, if only some commanders would act in a somewhat immersive and believeable way and not like rampaging psychopaths.
The notion of danger, thrill, or whatever else, can be dreived from many different mechanics, not simply from human interactions. If you think that, like Heisenberg, you are "the danger", you clearly haven't met Thargoids in Elite's previous versions. That was danger, and no PVP was required.
Personally, I wouldn't mind griefers or PVPers much if rebuy costs - for paying which I refuse to use those riddiculously boring exploits - weren't so high, even from PVP deaths (50 mil. a pop for my Cutter). Dark Souls, for an example, is also a very "dangerous" environment, where you can be invaded, and whose PVP is immensely more revered (and much better balanced) that that of Elite. The difference? You get all the competitive pleasure of PVP, but even if you die, you can always recover what you lost. You think that losing two days' work - or causing someone else, who isin't even prepared for PVP, to lose two days' work - is a necessary part of the game's experience? Well, that's not a preference shared by everyone at all, and has always been a very contentious matter. If, instead, you think we could have PVP without rebuy costs, then maybe you should campaign for this instead of telling everyone who disagrees to scram away, since it'll make PVP more enjoyable for all and will inevitably bring many people back to open for you to toy with.
Also, because something is "fully within the rules of the game" dosen't mean the rules are just. That's the whole point of my post. Your argument is on the same level as the one from that german official yesteryear who said that drugs can't be legalized because they are forbidden... The point is being missed here.
On the same note, restating the game's marketing pitch does not a serious argument make. But if it's satisfying enough for you, I'll repeat that, of all the playstyles that are offered in Elite not all are treated equally, they do not interact equally, they cannot be enjoyed in the same way, and they ultimately must be regulated differently. That is a fact. The alien ruins, which could have been filled with explorers eager to cooperate and decipher the puzzles therein, ended up pretty barren because of how many murderers showed up to get easy kills, forcing those who actually wished to enjoy the story, lore and challenge into Solo or Group mode.
The issue is not simply that people are afraid of fighting or dying or dislike PVP and want to neuter Open play and get rid of players like you...
The fundamental issue is that some important aspects of the game cannot be enjoyed properly in Open because of how the rules are made and how some players behave.
That is what I mean when I say that PVPers have the ability to impose their gameplay upon many people who do not want to, and the sentences above are the reason why this cannot be allowed unilaterally in such a game. Ultimately, your pretense that the claims of those who want a more structured Open experience are invalid is unsubstantiated - and you simply could not substantiate it, because this game tries to cater to way too many - and too diverse - people for such a blunt and unsubtle approach as full free-for-all. There could be a ton more nuances for dealing with PVP: Some zones could be protected, while others, like instances created upon interdicting someone, could not be. A portion of a victim's rebuy cost could be imposed upon the offender's next rebuy cost - or straight out removed from their wallet. Death from PVP could incur no rebuy at all and no loss of exploration data. I could go on...
Even better, since you're so intent on telling others to go to Solo or Groups... Why don't we just allow player groups to have unrestricted size? This way, we could have easy access to Mobius for all, essentially creating a PVE mode, and you'd be able to play with those that really want PVP at all times! Or are you against that option as well? If so, then maybe you should rethink how you act like your community in particular owns Open and those who disagree with you can just butter off. It is unmistakably hypocritical to tell non-PVP socializers to go to groups while expecting that social players will be forced back into Open because of how constrained and unwieldy groups are. Either accomodations should be made to Open, Or a PVE mode/unlimited groups have to be implemented. That way, everyone will be able to "play the way they want".
Of course, you're on the side of the status quo right now. If things remain the same, you win. Everything's going the way you want, so you want to defend that, it's understandeable, but don't act like the experience, preferences, fun and convenience of anything that disagrees with you are meaningless. THAT, if anything, is what most primates gifted with language would call "entitlement".
Last edited:
You seem to love finding every way to make PVP less relevant. Just because you use "fancy" words does not make me take you seriously in any way,
"I was clearly condemning CenturionPuch's insult on RhymeRhyme's sexuality. Incidentally, I was defending the PVPers right to argue for their ideas and their preferred gameplay without being verbally assaulted and insulted."
Who are they and why should I care? I wasn't even aware that was a thing? That has nothing to do with anything I ever said, you just wanted to have a (worthless) point.
Your ideas are nothing more than "I want to segregate people". Your hatred and bias against PVP is obvious.
Saying "It is unmistakably hypocritical to tell non-PVP socializers to go to groups while expecting that social players will be forced back into Open because of how constrained and unwieldy" since it implies you didn't do the exact same thing. PVP is part of the game, and that's not going to change, no matter of how much of a hissy fit tantrum you can throw. You also seem to think you are entitled to not have people engage with you if you don't want to in a game all about piracy, exploration and a few other activities.
While yes PVP people do not have as much of a rebuy cost for what they kill, imposing a credit penalty for it would be immensely wrong, why should the winner have to pay anything to the loser? This is something to be fixed with a karma system, nothing to do with economics.
Try and not make a word salad if your arguments are very weak.
"You assume a tremendous amount of things from very little, my endearing friend. I do, in fact, play in Solo 100% of the time. I don't have time to waste on this game's asymmetrical, costly PVP's bull in general, and I'm quite content to leave the bloody mess that is Open to others."
So you don't even have to deal with it yet you cry and moan about it? Marvelous. That's what we call, in the trade, a carebear. You can't man up to a fight, you just won't play with others because you don't want to take risks.
I am merely defending PVP within the game, while you are throwing entitlement everywhere saying we don't belong in the game because you don't like it. The irony could not be any stronger.
PS: Can't be a**'d using the reply tag and edit everything. Deal with it.
Last edited:
Blimey, those are fancy words to you? That speaks volumes.
Listen kid, if you think getting into pretend fights with people in an imaginary universe is to "man up", there's nothing left of an illusion of maturity and credibility about you. I'm a carebear? Congratulations! You found a label to stamp on my forehead! This must be so satisfactory! Turns out, it's perfectly true, I am a carebear, and I fully enjoy it. I care about other people, I care about making them happy, I care about honor, I care about justice, and I take absolutely no pleasure in the act of ruining someone's day. The only people who use that term venomously are those who care only about themselves.
Why should you care about those few other posts, you ask? Because all you had contributed to the thread back then was "moaning and crying" about how PVErs keep telling you that you're evil and idiotic and that you should get banned. It seemed quite obvious that you were referring to the insults that were flying through the current thread, otherwise you would've been just whining for the sake of it, which you clearly profess to hate. And while I disagreed with your vision of PVP, I actually did acknowledge that many PVErs aren't respectful enough, as exemplified by the content of the thread. It wasen't a (worthless) point, and not even a point at all, it was a conciliatory remark... And that's why you made a fool of yourself when you lashed out against me. But of course, I know that, deep down, you just don't care, period, which is why you won't have to care about how you managed to make yourself into a living, walking entertainment studio and got cyber-mauled by a fluffy teddy bear with a rainbow on its soft, cuddly belly.
Instead of accepting changes to Open to make it more inclusive, you insist on telling anyone who dosen't like the current rules to go to Solo. That's equally segregationist. Both our visions of the game lead to a separation of the playerbase, and to the very same segregation of the very same part of the playerbase, mind you. You're no better in any kind of way. I am right, however, in saying that if you're going to tell all players who want a PVE multi-player experience to *ck off to groups, then you have no grounds at all to argue against the creation of a PVE mode. Open play, with its thousands of players online at once, offers opportunities for socializing that no other game mode has. If you're so intent on living in the Wild West, then there's no reason for you, as you admit to want everyone else out, to say PVErs shouldn't have their own mode : You've already cast them out! I am not the one being a hypocrite here. You, however, in refusing people who don't play like you do the convenience and fun of a mode that suits them (a mode in which they are as equally at ease as you are in Open), in the clear hope that some people who would go to PVE servers if they were available will remain in Open because they'd rather not bother with group membership, is utter underhandedness and selfishness. You're afraid you'd lose easy preys, those who don't fight back, that's all there is. What makes you entitled to shooting everyone you like, but no-one entitled to safety? From what do you derive this superiority you can't even question? Why do you believe everyone's time belongs to you from the moment you meet them? Why must everyone be a plaything at your disposal all the time? And you have the sheer, massive gall to pretend that PVErs are entitled? Have you no ability for introspection at all?
Also, about the rebuy cost being billed to the offender? That's the concept for GTA V MP for you, and it's been working very well. You can be as much of a nuisance as you like, but there is an actual, serious price to pay for that devious kind of fun. What makes you entitled to attacking everyone, and also to not have any meaningful repercussions?
By the way, have you seen how everyone can play the "entitlement" game? It sounds stupid in everyone's mouth. I suggest you snap out of that mentality in the future : Nobody is "just" being "entitled"; everyone is trying to make this game the best game possible according to their preferences. The assumptions and accusations of "entitlement" are used by very selfish and narcissistic people who can not even imagine for an instant that other people, when they disagree with them, are being honest and genuine in their desire to improve the game. "Everyone you're against is selfish and stupid", that's what you're really saying when you scream about "entitlement". It means nothing.
PVP is a great many things. Killing harmless people or those who don't even want to fight you is naught but a minuscule part of it. To pretend that asking for more safety (be it by taming Open or making PVE mode or whatever else) is an attack against PVP itself (talk about being over-dramatic!) really shows where you stand and what you're actually doing. Incidentally : 1) You Are Not PVP Incarnate. 2) The rules of the game are not PVP itself. I do not Hate PVP, as you so simply and mistakenly pretend : what I dislike is how the game's rules deal with PVP, and - to an even much greater extent - I do feel some deep annoyance towards people like you, who seem to be hell-bent on giving the whole PVP community a bad name.
Also, for the record : I can either throw a hissy fit or a tantrum, not a "hissy fit tantrum" A hissy fit can't have a tantrum. That's... primary school, I think. In the same spirit : I can "be" entitled, but entitlement cannot be "thrown" as you pretend I am doing. it's not an object, but a state of mind. Furthermore, seriously? You can't be a*ed to edit your post and I should deal with it? My, what an Alpha you are... Before pretending others are behaving like children, start talking like an adult.
Finally, why do I even care if I play in Solo? Because I'd rather have a PVE multiplayer mode, simply and purely. That, or a way of restricting PVP in Open to moments when both parties are interested in battle. Making high-sec systems places where PVP is impossible, while non-high-sec systems would allow it, this being compensated by a much greater profit margin from all activities in more dangerous space, would be the beginning of a great idea. So, am I a coward for not wanting to fight all the time? Well, aren't you a coward as well for wanting to have the right to kill even people who clearly can't put up a fight or have a much less powerful ship and a lot less skill? Remember this for the rest of your life : When you find a trait you deeply hate in someone else, it's probably because deep down, you share that trait. Takes one to know one, as we say. See, no matter how much we could hate each other, we are forced to accept we're so very, very close to each other! You're just like me, pal, you just like to * with people who are out of their depth in-game instead of in writing.
As far as I'm concerned, we've strayed too far from the subject of the thread already, and you can't rise above ad hominem arguments, so unless you disparage my ancestors I'll not bother with you anymore. I'll leave it to other readers to determine whichever of us makes the most sense in any case.
Last edited:
The ability to distinguish players from NPC's on the radar quickly benefits everyone, not just PvP-ers. I for one don't want to be inconvenienced in the name of "realism". Every online game I've ever seen has a way to quickly visually distinguish players from NPC's. It's always parts of the Elite community that want to reinvent the wheel for some reason.
Do you know what might actually work?
(Warning: haven't thought this through!)
If/when we get a Karma System, make low karma CMDRs show as hollow squares, but neutral or high karma show as solid, and blend in.
Atleast until a full scan is completed.
That way, the gankers at the CG will be blatantly obvious to anyone entering, but the gankers will need to scan each individual ship for a CMDR tag to find a victim.
Thoughts?
(I'm not really fussed either way, I'm just trying to be supportive to the OPs idea, after I initially shot it down!)
CMDR Cosmic Spacehead
(Warning: haven't thought this through!)
If/when we get a Karma System, make low karma CMDRs show as hollow squares, but neutral or high karma show as solid, and blend in.
Atleast until a full scan is completed.
That way, the gankers at the CG will be blatantly obvious to anyone entering, but the gankers will need to scan each individual ship for a CMDR tag to find a victim.
Thoughts?
(I'm not really fussed either way, I'm just trying to be supportive to the OPs idea, after I initially shot it down!)
CMDR Cosmic Spacehead
If you look at it this way "removing" the cmdr moniker, hollow stuff AND bandwidth monitor would put everyone on the same footing.
Think about it EVERY ship could be a cmdr this would make the galaxy Dangerous as everyone would be more conscious of their surroundings. Instead of "oh nobody in the system I will just trundle to the station".
Think about it being followed or getting near a ship would seriously be a fight or flight situation.
Think about it EVERY ship could be a cmdr this would make the galaxy Dangerous as everyone would be more conscious of their surroundings. Instead of "oh nobody in the system I will just trundle to the station".
Think about it being followed or getting near a ship would seriously be a fight or flight situation.
Thanks for the counter suggestion... Yes that might work (I haven't completely thought it throught yet either), but it complicates development effort and I expect some players would be outraged at being treated in what they would perceive as unfair. My original suggestion was intended to be as simple as possible to minimize development effort. Since your counter suggestion depends on a reasonably decent Karma system, I would hope that alone might solve the problem, without having to get rid of hollow squares.
Despite the lack of realism, the hollow square is not the most unrealistic thing in the game anyway. A good CP/Karma system would be nearly as good if not better overall. I would really like to see more players in open and if my OP would have the opposite effect then I wouldn't support it either. I think this suggestion has probably been discussed enough now and I will ask a moderator to close it in th next twenty four hours (so post any closing thoughts soon if you need to).
Robert Maynard
Volunteer Moderator
Closed at the request of the OP.
- Status