Supercruise Combat!

[CMDR Cosmic Spacehead]

Sort of. Lol

Not sure if this is needed, but I felt like sharing my idea.

Basically, it's additional weapons that are supercruise capable, and some gameplay around them.

FSD Disruption Mine
A hardpoint capable of dropping supercruise capable FSD Disruption Mines, which can be used both offensively and defensively.
When dropped, they will slow down to minimum speed (30k/s) and any ship that comes too close* to trigger the FSD Disruption, will have their speed and handling greatly reduced. These can be dropped while being interdicted, forcing the pursuing ship to either collide and take a handling nerf, or take evasive action to avoid it(both making escape easier). They can also be dropped freely in supercruise, but are quite easy to see visually (they glow), but don't show up on sensors until quite close. They can only sustain supercruise for about 1 minute, before crashing out harmlessly.
Hitting multiple mines in a row can cause your FSD to crash, forcing you to normal space, with a long cooldown, but requires quite a few successful hits.
*The trigger range is dependent on the speed of the passing ship, and the effect is based on range.
Mines can be used as a countermeasure for missiles (see below).
Weapon hardpoint. Limited ammo.

FSD Disruption Missile
Much like the FSDD Mine, the missile can disrupt a targets supercruise ability, and lower it's speed and agility. It's also capable of targeting and triggering mines to remove them safely, but will also detonate if in proximity to a FSDD Mine, so mines can be dropped as countermeasures. They are much less effective than the mine version, and no amount of missiles can pull a target out of supercruise. However, they can be used during Interdictions, for both the Interdictor against its target, and anyone else witnessing it, to either help or hinder the Interdictor by reducing the agility of the whoever they target.
They have significantly faster acceleration and agility than any ship, but a short life span (5-10~ seconds).
Weapon hardpoint. Limited magazine ammo. Slow reload.

Legality
If any clean ship hits a mine, even if you are no longer present, it will trigger an Assault Bounty. There can be fines for dropping mines too close to stations or beacons in medium or high security systems.

Missiles can be fired without a fine, in all levels of security, but a hit on a (clean) ship will trigger an Assault Bounty.

So there you have it.

You can drop mines to;

• Slow down an Interdictor
• Slow down/crash out potential targets
• Destroy incoming FSDD Missiles

And you can use missiles to;

• Slow down ships to allow you to catch up
• Reduce targets agility during an Interdiction
• Destroy Mines

Both require a weapon hardpoint, and neither work in normal space.
Both have plenty of ammo, but mines have 3 in a magazine, and missiles only have 1.

Thoughts?

CMDR Cosmic Spacehead

 

[Howard o Pato]

I loved the idea, new gameplay to make the supercruise more interesting is always welcome.


But in terms of equipment, we have a very difficult physical problem, the enormous speed of the cruise. When we fly in super-Cruise the FSD puts the ship into a distorting bubble in the "guts of the physical universe."


The mines, when being dumped, would fall from the super-Cruise into normal space, and the ship's distortion bubble would pass over them easily without being affected. In addition to working at speeds several times faster than the speed of light, the distances involved would be immense, and it would be impossible to reposition the mine after it was launched, and the chance to hit the target that is spinning in the mini-game would be 0%.

The same goes for the missile, which would fall to normal speed of 600m / s for dumbfires.


How should they work? Maybe the mine has gravitational generators that could affect the target? In the elite there are no gravitational generators.


An FSD and sensors that could make them follow the target? Cost / benefit would be unfeasible, not counting the size of an FSD (the smallest is a 2D that weighs 1T).

 

[CMDR Cosmic Spacehead]

So much science!

In my head, I basically decided that the mines and missiles have tiny single use FSDs, which also acts as a warhead, that sync up with your FSD on launch (to allow them to stay in supercruise), and mines simply can't accelerate, so will drop to 30k/s, but pack a punch if an FSD 'bow wave' triggers them. They'd have a short arming time to prevent detonation from your own FSD.
And missiles can accelerate, really fast, but because of this, pack a smaller punch when they hit the targets FSD bubble.

But think of the mines and missiles as "floating on gravity", and triggered by distortions. The bigger the distortion, the further the mine can be from the source.
When the mines or missiles FSD explodes (or implodes?), they disrupt the distortion that caused it, messing up supercruise for the victim, or technically anyone nearby.

Missiles cause a massive slowdown, but over a short time, so you will recover before they can hit you again(because they are skill-less). Mines have a similar effect, that lasts longer, meaning you can stack the effect on a target that keeps running over your mines, and eventually crash their FSD.

Seems as both mines and missiles are triggered by gravitational disruptions, they can be used on each other.
Both a weapon and countermeasure.

Ammo would be rather expensive, especially for the missiles. (Mines don't need good sensors).

CMDR Cosmic Spacehead

 

[Greesb]

+1 for the idea, could be really usefull, especially when you dont want to be disturbed with passengers mission and stuff like that.

 

[DocLooshkin]

Hello, CSH.

The forum won't let me rep you for the moment, but it's a very good idea.

I remember the original Elite. I remember the moment of sheer panic whenever some bleeder fired a missile at you and you had just seconds to precisely shoot it down or be obliterated. In ED, the missiles are too small, fly too quickly and are usually too swamped by lasers and bullets to give us that feeling again. Torpedoes seem like they might be closer, but if I've ever been shot with one, I haven't noticed.

Your idea looks like it might convey a similar tension, albeit a less immediately lethal one. It would certainly be an interesting change away from routine interdiction.

The SF science is no obstacle, I think. Unless it appears in game, it's not truly canonical. Although FD might prefer to recognise some of the more popular aspects of fan-written lore, it's inevitable that there will be overwrites here and there. Given that most of us just aren't all that fussed about exactly how the FSD works - at the end of the day, it's just a Star Trek warp drive with the serial numbers shamelessly filed off - I don't see it standing in the way of good gameplay.

In any case, just because we haven't yet seen any FSDs smaller than that which is needed to move a Sidewinder, that doesn't mean they can't exist. It doesn't even suggest it, really.

Rather than having them as hardpoints, though, I would suggest that the best way to do these weapons would be to have a launcher where we normally find SLF bays - and with the same ordnance being used for both offensive and defensive roles, as the Commander chooses. Aside from adding some variety to everyone's day, it would strengthen the ships that can carry them, for both traders and pirates alike.

I suggest the ordnance itself should just be - essentially - an SLF-sized interdictor bomb, replacing the current interdiction mechanic when used, except the pursuer would obviously have to catch up to the wake and drop in ASAP. Potentially, the weapon could disrupt the target's systems to give pursuers a little more time to catch up - or give players using them defensively more time to get away. Targets without appropriate defensive measures would obviously have to learn evasion skills.

Potentially, we could have this running from the role panel and - rather than just having a pointless redux of existing interdiction mechanics - have it as a telepresence-piloted, remote-control weapon, similar to the SLFs, but in SuperCruise. Although I haven't played multi-crew (I haven't a reliable-enough machine to gamble anyone else's time on) I can see how it would give the gunner role more to do, albeit at the cost of regular SLFs.

It's a good idea, CSH. When the forum lets me, I shall have to remember to come back here and put some more rep your way.

 

[Allchemyst]

Althought I think the overall idea is a great one, I don't think this is the correct approach.

What I'd rather see would be a different way of handling interdictions. Rather than "digfighting" in supercruise (which, given the acceleration/deceleration mechanics, wouldn't be very practical or enojyable), it would be very nice if, on a successful "interdiction" the attacker would be able to "invade" their prey's warp bubble and attack them with normal weaponry as long as they keep tailing them. There could be weapons with the specific purpose of dropping a ship out of supercruise, or it could be left to the attacked to decide wether to drop out of SC or let their attacker keep hitting them...

In this scenario, mines would actually make sense, since they're dropped inside the reality bubble against a ship who's also in the same bubble.

That'd be some star trek fun right there...

 

[DocLooshkin]

Hello, Allchemyst.

[...] "digfighting" in supercruise [...] given the acceleration/deceleration mechanics, wouldn't be very practical or enojyable [...]

I have to say, that seems like an amazingly sweeping dismissal of something that doesn't exist! If it was done well, I'm sure most of us would enojy it well enough.

As far as dogfighting is concerned, I can't speak for CSH, but I see the overall idea having more potential as a slower, more tensiony sort of thing. Various long-range and warp-speed torpedo exchanges in the earlier Star Trek films and in episodes of Star Trek: The Next Generation would be a good conceptual touchstone here, as would any number of old war movies, where submarines are having a go at each other. Not to mention the original missiles in Elite, which were great fun.

I don't see the point of an actual dogfight in SuperCruise. If the resulting experience is nothing more than a variation of normal combat, it seems like a bit of a waste of resources - and FD might as well just stick with the mechanics they have, in that case. A new and different gaming experience is what makes a new thing worth developing, or so it seems to me.

[...] it could be left to the attacked to decide wether to drop out of SC or let their attacker keep hitting them...

I'm trying to think of a reason to stay in SC under these circumstances. I admit, I'm struggling here. Barring the most absurdly OP version of mines, nothing seems plausibly likely to deter or deflect a capable and prepared attacker in this situation. Unless you were lucky enough to be literally just a few seconds from dropping into a station - the odds of which seem quite slim - what would be the point of doing anything other than dropping, boosting and jumping out ASAP?

 

[StiTch]

Try colliding with a station in SC and you'll find why SC mines are a no-go

Science aside, laying something in another's path accurately at those speeds would ask a miracle of targeting systems.

 

[CMDR Cosmic Spacehead]

Try colliding with a station in SC and you'll find why SC mines are a no-go

Science aside, laying something in another's path accurately at those speeds would ask a miracle of targeting systems.

Heh, I have enough trouble hitting planets sometimes.

Like I said earlier, a ship wouldn't actually need to collide directly with a FSDD Mine.
The supercruise bow wave, wake, bubble, or gravitational distortion, or whatever, from a passing ship would ripple out and trigger the mine, which sends a ripple back (or something), which messed up that ships supercruise bubble/supercruise in that particular area for a short time.

Laying them randomly about isn't going to be the meta for their use anyway, seems as they wouldn't last too long anyway. No giant supercruise mine fields I'm afraid! (As hilarious as that would be, lol)
Mostly dropping them before or during Interdictions to throw off your attacker, or as a countermeasure for them using the missiles on you.

Or something.

 

[StiTch]

Like I said earlier, a ship wouldn't actually need to collide directly with a FSDD Mine.
The supercruise bow wave, wake, bubble, or gravitational distortion, or whatever, from a passing ship would ripple out and trigger the mine, which sends a ripple back (or something), which messed up that ships supercruise bubble/supercruise in that particular area for a short time.

Now I normally am the first to slap people for ruining games with "realism", but I'm fairly sure the fact that SC travel happens at several times the speed of light gets in the way a bit.

By the time any mine has detected any kind of trigger and gone off, you'll be well out of any realistic blast radius - and that blast wave would need to travel at FTL speeds to hit you.

As we've established FTL isn't possible, and ED travel requires use of a bubble to travel faster than light only relatively, I'm pretty sure that mines would serve the single git purpose of blowing up on people travelling behind the victim.

 

[Stellar Gambit]

nice ideal, but it would make interdiction obsolete