Supercruise - planetary slingshots

[Thatchinho]

It applies, but I don't believe it's physics that affect how it works.
Your acceleration and speed are determined mostly by the target you have selected, and usually your FSD will slow down near big celestial bodies, which isn't exactly how gravity should work.
Sometimes it shows you're speeding (with speed indicator going out of scale) - but that means you're moving too fast (to safely drop out of supercruise I assume) - when usually you're actually constantly slowing down.

I always thought this is more like safety option built in FSD - to save pilots from hitting planets at full hyperspeed, so when FSD detects gravity well it will automatically lower the speed cap.

There’s basically two layers to SC, a ‘hard’ layer and a ‘soft’ layer.

The hard layer is the background physics, and is what determines the max Supercruise speed at a given point in space.

The soft layer is then on top of that and is your ship’s computer doing things to make navigation easier. Essentially the computer adds a soft limit to max Supercruise speed which is less than the hard limit. It does this in relation to the object you’ve got targeted. To all intents and purposes the ship’s computer simulates a small gravity well for objects (stations, USSs, etc.) that are too small to have any discernable gravity well of their own, and it only does so when you target one of those objects.

Without the soft layer most would have great difficulty dropping out into the desired location, and it would probably be nigh on impossible for new players (particularly given that there was apparently a need for undocking computers and SC assist).

 

[VR Jay Le Chardon]

@Thatchinho thanks for the comments, this thread was an idea to counter all the proposed "fixes" like in system jumps and ridiculously amped up supercruise speeds (some are advocating it needs to be capped to a maximum of 20 seconds travel time). Most of the other suggestions are in my opinion game breaking, this kind of fits with the in game mechanics, and I am concerned by the level of support and traction those opinions are gaining.

I'd love to hear a dev chime on this debate where there are so many folks campaigning to get super-cruise " to either confirm or deny if they are likely to do something to appease the current outpouring of opinions. Personally, I'd leave Supercruise as-is, but if it must be changed to appease the more vociferous commentators, I'd rather something like what I've suggested than jump beacons, or such like. Out of curiosity, I'd love to know how difficult the required tweaks to super-cruise mechanics to enable this suggestion would be, and how difficult this would be to implement in comparison to some of the other suggestions that are currently being banded about.

 

[Thatchinho]

@Thatchinho thanks for the comments, this thread was an idea to counter all the proposed "fixes" like in system jumps and ridiculously amped up supercruise speeds (some are advocating it needs to be capped to a maximum of 20 seconds travel time). Most of the other suggestions are in my opinion game breaking, this kind of fits with the in game mechanics, and I am concerned by the level of support and traction those opinions are gaining.

I'd love to hear a dev chime on this debate where there are so many folks campaigning to get super-cruise " to either confirm or deny if they are likely to do something to appease the current outpouring of opinions. Personally, I'd leave Supercruise as-is, but if it must be changed to appease the more vociferous commentators, I'd rather something like what I've suggested than jump beacons, or such like. Out of curiosity, I'd love to know how difficult the required tweaks to super-cruise mechanics to enable this suggestion would be, and how difficult this would be to implement in comparison to some of the other suggestions that are currently being banded about.

Yeah, I understand where you're coming from, and hope my comments didn't come across as a 'what on Earth are you thinking of?!!' type comment. Like I said it's a nice idea in principle, it's just that I don't think it actually would work for SC because of the way SC works, at least not without major changes to how SC works, which are going to effect other things.

+rep for the general sentiment you're expressing though.

 

[lenna]

Gravity doesn't apply to FSD?

You are interpreting one effect as something else, other people have adequately explained the underlying mechanics - essentially the same points I have been raising but in a more verbose (and perhaps clearer) way.

 

[lenna]

@Thatchinho thanks for the comments, this thread was an idea to counter all the proposed "fixes" like in system jumps and ridiculously amped up supercruise speeds (some are advocating it needs to be capped to a maximum of 20 seconds travel time). Most of the other suggestions are in my opinion game breaking, this kind of fits with the in game mechanics, and I am concerned by the level of support and traction those opinions are gaining.

The idea of allowing nav-beacon (or similar) aided intra-system/non-primary-star jumps is probably the only one I agree has any merit wrt the overall perception that required super-cruise times are on the whole excessive and/or boring. The additional idea of having long-distance inter-system mass-transit also has some merit, FD have implemented some of these already but have kept them limited in scope (which is a good thing IMO).

However, personally I think all such related suggestions (end goal being to reduce travel times) are unwarranted in the main.

 

[Maolagin]

Sometimes it shows you're speeding (with speed indicator going out of scale) - but that means you're moving too fast (to safely drop out of supercruise I assume) - when usually you're actually constantly slowing down.

Point of correction - that's not what the "SLOW DOWN" warning means.

Most of the time, your maximum supercruise speed is set by your proximity to massive objects, and your proximity to your target destination. Out in deep space that's just your distance from the central star, but near planetary bodies it's a function of the various gravity wells in play. When moving at close to full throttle into a gravity well or close to your destination, your "maximum" SC speed may decrease faster than your current speed. When you are moving faster than the local maximum, your SC performance is degraded - agility is reduced, as is your ability to slow down, which is why you will often coast past your destination even though you are slowing down. Think of it like a car skidding after taking a turn too fast, you won't get full control back until the tires have regained normal traction. This is the condition indicated by the "SLOW DOWN" warning.

 

[lenna]

Point of correction - that's not what the "SLOW DOWN" warning means.

Ultimately, the same as what @Florenus was getting at - you are travelling too fast (for whatever reason) and should really slow down. The discussion about the why it is displayed is covered in another thread.

FTR agility in SC as far as I am aware is primarily affected by two things - whether the throttle is in the blue zone and the number of pips assigned to engines, operating the throttle outside of the blue-zone also impacts how much hull integrity damage you sustain overtime. There are similar consequences relating to throttle control for normal engine operation too.

Overall though, in the context of this discussion the behaviour of super-cruise flight mechanics do mean the proposal put forward would not make any sense.

 

[VR Jay Le Chardon]

However, personally I think all such related suggestions (end goal being to reduce travel times) are unwarranted in the main.

+1 to that. I'd honestly prefer it if FDev left supercruise the heck alone, even better would be if they were to add more things we can do in our ships, possibly easier done when legs come, or if theyabsolutely MUST do something to appease the complainers, I'd prefer it to be a supercruise activity, hence me suggesting slingshots?

 

[Azmuth Divarchchron]

Gravity doesn't apply to FSD?

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWSPWL7Atsg

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=6&v=gy4zca1yjKw

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wHD8gvBkWrc

no, gravity doenst apply to FSD because its quantum friction and quantum turbulence affecting it not gravity.
if gravity affected your FSD then slingshots would be possible.
using an astronomical body to "brake" is a result of quantum friction between the FSD's dispersal of space and the astronomical body's dispersal of space. as stated in the reddit article i linked

 

[[VR] M4st0d0n]

+1 to that. I'd honestly prefer it if FDev left supercruise the heck alone, even better would be if they were to add more things we can do in our ships, possibly easier done when legs come, or if theyabsolutely MUST do something to appease the complainers, I'd prefer it to be a supercruise activity, hence me suggesting slingshots?

If legs comes. Lack of a proper roadmap forces skepticism. And if it comes, walking around your ship wont necesseraly be allowed in supercruise. But if it is, I fear we would just be able to make coffee in the Krait.

At the moment building speed with planets along the way is rarely an option. it's easier to do it spiraling out the main star, then having a trajectory arc above the orbital planes.

 

[[VR] M4st0d0n]

If gravity doesn't affect FSD, at least a sci-fi film a thousand years old do.

 

[ThatSmileyGuy]

The "Hot topic" of recent times seems to be "supercruise is so slow, I'm bored..."

To which i respond that the game is not aimed at those who raise such issues.
If i'm honest it all sounds to me like ramblings of those who don't play the game to appreciate the universe and wonders of space itself but rather those who would like to get rich quick and be done with everything.
The game has already been streamlined too much for the less nerdier part of the playerbase and as such shall not be made any "quicker".
It's the core idea of space. That it's big. Huge. Quoting a classic:
"Space is big. You just won't believe how vastly, hugely, mind-bogglingly big it is. I mean, you may think it's a long way down the road to the chemist's, but that's just peanuts to space." Douglas Adams - "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy"

 

[ThatSmileyGuy]

Further expanding my previous post in this thread. Maybe we shold focus on the latter part of the quote. SC is boring. Undeniably. But that would boil down to introducing certain game mechanics that would make the journey a little bit more engaging. Say, navigating asteroid belts, avoiding debris clusters etc.

 

[lenna]

+1 to that. I'd honestly prefer it if FDev left supercruise the heck alone, even better would be if they were to add more things we can do in our ships, possibly easier done when legs come, or if theyabsolutely MUST do something to appease the complainers, I'd prefer it to be a supercruise activity, hence me suggesting slingshots?

Unfortunately, that would not be possible without messing up super cruise mechanics and would actually make little sense.

There is literally nothing that can be done to change super-cruise that would not ultimately make matters worse.

Intra-system jumps under limited circumstances is really the only viable option without royally messing things up. FD already messed up exploration mechanics to appease the anti-honk crowd, lets not lead them down a similar path for general travel mechanics.

 

[lenna]

Further expanding my previous post in this thread. Maybe we shold focus on the latter part of the quote. SC is boring. Undeniably. But that would boil down to introducing certain game mechanics that would make the journey a little bit more engaging. Say, navigating asteroid belts, avoiding debris clusters etc.

No thank you - lets keep the kiddie mentality mini-games to a minimum, FSS/DSS mini-games are too much already.

 

[varonica]

@rlsg I think the fact we are travelling at supraliminary speeds kind of ignores relativity, so this would be one of those cases where game play trumps accuracy. We can try to work close to physics, and indeed the game does that already. The sort of gravity braking in supercruise I mentioned in my proposal is currently in game, and has been for yonks, so the game already mixes supercruise supraluminal speeds with newtonian gravity, which is why I see no reason we could not also have gravity assists as acceleration.

Ignore standard physics, it doesn't apply when we are in SC. The principal of SC is that the further away from the gravity well we are the faster we travel, that's why it's possible to do a gravity breaking maneuver to decrease your time to approach bodies and stations. The slowing down effect our ships in the ED universe experience when approaching stars and planets isn't a gamey thing or newtonian thing, it's inherent in the base way travel in SC works, it effectively the opposite way newtonian physics works so no we aren't mixing newtonian physics with SC. In newtonian physics you would speed up due to gravitational attraction when approaching a body, hence the ability to do a slingshot which we currently use to accelerate our interplanetary probes, the gravity breaking effect would only apply when you are moving away from a body.

To apply a slingshot effect like you suggest would mean a fundamental re-writing of the physics behind FTL travel in ED and would affect every single aspect of the game, and not in a good way, in fact reversing the way SC works in all aspects, increasing travel time exponentially as the further away from a body you got the slower you would travel. Even when we aren't traveling in SC FDEV have decided to effectively ignore newtonian physics to maintain a gamey second world war fighter style of combat. Applying boost in real space provides continuous acceleration, not just maintenance of top speed.

So no we aren't mixing in newtonian physics, we are effectively ignoring it in just about every aspect of the game to make for better game play.

 

[varonica]

At risk of asking the obvious, how is the star targeted? I assume it's because it's, well, a star, and thus a gigantic radioactive beacon?

I think in ED we track stars by gravity waves, and nothing else produces gravity waves like stars and other interstellar objects of similar proportion, it's likely any gravity waves from smaller objects are drowned out by the most massive object in a system. I have twice jumped into systems at the secondary star and in both cases it turned out the secondary was, for some reason, maybe a game bug, the most massive object in the system.