Surface Uknown Signal Sources (USS)

[sandkid]

So I'm currently roaming the black and I stumbled on a USS with 'Rescue One' Anaconda and a whole lotta debris floating about...was a nice little find. I had just stopped for the evening and was looking for a planet to land on to rest for the night (just a habit of mine) and I got to thinking about USSs for landable planets.

It's well-documented a lot of explorers would like to see more content for planets - and even some combat pilots want fighting zones akin to Res zones in space, but in atmosphere. So below are my ideas for how a USS on a planet would be detected and what some potential 'finds' might be:


HOW IT WORKS

Discovering unknown signal sources on a planet requires that a ship be within a set distance of the planet (we'll use 25Mm as an example).

1) Upon reaching proximity of 25Mm, the ship's navigation pane will begin to populate with any unknown signal sources on a planet.
2) The commander can select a signal source and, much like a mission waypoint, begin flying towards it.
3) Upon entering atmosphere, the signal source has a defined point that can be reached via glide/normal flight.
4) At this point will be a deployed beacon of some type - this beacon is the first indicator of what might be found.
5) Interfacing with the beacon is possible only via SRV. Doing so elicits a mission text and possibly a new waypoint that relates to that mission. The mission waypoint will range from 2km to 10km from the original beacon.


THE MISSION TYPES

There could be three categories of beacons: deployed distress beacons, signal boosters, and abandoned transmission towers.

TYPE A: DEPLOYED DISTRESS BEACONS
These beacons are emergency devices deployed from ships or SRVs as a means to attract others to the location. They have the appearance of small, cylindrical devices with a heavy flash battery attached and a monotonous pulsing sound every 30 seconds.

A1: The distress beacon indicates a crashed ship - the new waypoint indicates its location. The crashed ship will always have cargo strewn about. Randomly generated assets include hostile skimmers, a pirate ship landed next to wreck, escape pods occupied and damaged.

A2: The distress beacon is a ruse - interfacing with the beacon does not create a waypoint but instead summons randomly generated enemies: Multiple hostile skimmers, a Small Pirate Ship, or a Medium Pirate Ship.


TYPE B: SIGNAL BOOSTERS
These beacons are deployed antennae and other hardware designed to carry short-range transmissions or send signals into low-orbit. They are frequently used by salvage teams to mark locations of interest as well as smugglers to broadcast encoded messages to transports in low-orbit.

B1: The signal booster indicates a nearby smuggling depot - the new waypoint indicates its location. The depot will always have cargo strewn about, two defensive turrets, and an anti-ship turret. Randomized assets include hostile skimmers, a transport-type pirate ship (Hauler, DBE, Keelback), escape pods occupied and damaged, a scan beacon to pull data from.

B2: The signal booster indicates a nearby discovered mining claim - the new waypoint indicates its location. The mining claim will always have between four and eight deposits the SRV can mine. Quality of deposits is randomized as well as limited to planet's actual composition. Randomized assets include: Skimmers (wanted or clean), trespassing boundary, defensive turrets, cargo containers of ore or mineral commodities.


TYPE C: ABANDONED TRANSMISSION TOWERS
These obsolete structures are remnants of failed colonies or stranded explorers that attempted to boost their distress signals. Many broadcast on low frequencies or are outright offline, picked up only by powerful sensors like the discovery scanner.

C1: The abandoned transmission tower indicates a nearby failed colony - the new waypoint indicates its location. The failed colony will always have various materials strewn about along with dilapidated structures and ship or early-SRV husks. Randomized assets include hostile skimmers, multiple scan beacons for pulling data, and cargo containers of non-perishable commodities.

C2: The abandoned transmission tower indicates the last known location of a stranded explorer - the new waypoint indicates their location. The stranded explorer's site will feature a ship husk and SRV husk, small structures that could have been used for shelter or work, and materials strewn about from the explorer's attempts to repair their ship and fashion a working beacon. Randomized assets include hostile skimmers, multiple scan beacons for pulling data, and cargo containers of non-perishable goods.


The point of these USSs are to provide surface related activities, most of which are SRV-centered but some are not (particularly when pirates are involved). In the Bubble and systems near to colonized space, Type A and Type B are most common. In the black and uncivilized space, Type C is most common but Type A and B would occur occasionally. The Black is lonely, but it isn't empty: FSDs have rendered much of the galaxy accessible to all so its plausible to find these sorts of signals throughout your journey...just like the rescue efforts in space.

I'd like to see surface USSs not just benefit explorers or combatants - they should vary across the career paths. An explorer may pick and choose what salvage to carry (gold over clothing, for example) whereas a trader may search for many salvage sites for free cargo. A combatant would be primarily interested in Type A and Type B beacons as they likely lead to pirates or surface installations in need of destruction.

The availability of materials as much as cargo lends well to planetary excursions and 'farming' for engineering on the surface, but also could provide lifelines or are just pleasant finds on a long journey through the black for a lone explorer. I, for one, would much rather engage in some sort of search for a large cache of materials than just land the SRV and drive around shooting at random rocks and hoping RNG blesses me. At least this is a little more engaging.

Thoughts?

 

[MBaldelli]

Good ideas, but I shouldn't be seeing some of these in the deep black (well outside the bubble and more than 5,000 LY). As it stands the way the USS works is based on the player, not the environment, and knowing my luck, will be seeing ABANDONED TRANSMISSION TOWERS entirely too much in places where there should be positively no human life.


I'd give this a +1 but I gave you one within the last couple of weeks.. So it'll have to be virtual.

 

[sandkid]

Good ideas, but I shouldn't be seeing some of these in the deep black (well outside the bubble and more than 5,000 LY). As it stands the way the USS works is based on the player, not the environment, and knowing my luck, will be seeing ABANDONED TRANSMISSION TOWERS entirely too much in places where there should be positively no human life.


I'd give this a +1 but I gave you one within the last couple of weeks.. So it'll have to be virtual.

That will be the tricky bit - and I'm no developer - of getting these to spawn, but not frequently. Here's just guesstimates of a spawn table so you have an idea of what I'm thinking. Whether or not they should be based per planet or per system I'm not sure...I'm doing per planet, but per system might make more sense.

In colonized space (so anywhere with stations or 'established' surface installations...

Type A: 30% chance to spawn per planet, Maximum of Two
Type B: 60% chance to spawn per planet, Maximum of Three
Type C: 5% chance to spawn per planet, Maximum of One

In fringe space (within 500ly of colonized system)...

Type A: 60% chance to spawn per planet, Maximum of Three
Type B: 50% chance to spawn per planet, Maximum of Two
Type C: 10% chance to spawn per planet, Maximum of One

In deep space (the black, 500+ly from any colonized system)...

Type A: 5% chance to spawn per planet, Maximum of One
Type B: 10% chance to spawn per planet, Maximum of One
Type C: 15% chance to spawn per planet, Maximum of Two


Some considerations:

1) You can't even find these unless you're within 25Mm of a planet - they won't show otherwise on a navigation pane. As such, they automatically require close-flight to even locate the starting beacons if they exist.

2) Only landable planets work. Ice planets are coming sometime 2018, but right now a large portion of planetary bodies can't even be used for this mechanic. Again, that hopefully changes as time goes on...but for now, I'm basing my guesses off of the scarcity of planets (not that they are actually that scarce).

3) The spawn table segregation is based on 'common sense' of stellar traffic:

Colonized systems are statistically more likely to be using signal boosters to mask operations from authorities. While many pilots will crash in colonized systems (due to just sheer numbers), their rescue is also a lot more likely - so while more crashes do occur in colonized space...the number left no-yet-rescued would be inherently low. Abandoned towers are extremely unlikely because failed colonies not already salvaged are extremely unlikely in such populous space. Honestly, you could set it spawn of 0%...but there are still unknowns hiding right under our noses with Thargoids, so I left it at 5%.

Fringe Systems are much more likely to have crashed pilots that can be found...rescue is further away, and pirate more frequent to boot. The need to hide transmissions in slightly lower...so finding Type B's is lower. Technically, their existence should be higher...but I'm approaching this from a 'chance you would find them' stance. Abandoned towers are a little more likely because failed colonies on the fringe is not unusual...but again, they'd be fairly fresh and easy to reach. So the rate is only marginally higher.

Deep-space is where things get hard to find - and you're right, there should be places no human has even been before...so these rates may yet be too generous. The problem with percentiles is that in a game with so many systems, a single tenth of a percent change could mean hundreds of systems before you find anything. Failed colonies would be a lot less likely than stranded explorers in deep space...but BOTH are themselves very unlikely. Living pilots or pirates are very unlikely, making Type-A a low chance, and again the need to hide signals or boost them is even lower because you are in lawless space. Chances are everything you need is on hand for an excavation anyways...making Type B's unlikely.


After all that rambling...does that make sense?

 

[MBaldelli]

^ This here is the proper application of RNG. While I'm fairly certain this RNG would be skewed because of how die rolls are generated in a virtual environment, it might in fact be better than what I'm currently seeing. Certainly would make it a treat to come across something without it feeling like I'm being haunted by the USS (which I think my luck in this game would be doubly skewed).

 

[shreddog]

Great ideas OP. I'd suggest to have the 'percent chance to spawn' diminish the further and further away from the bubble of human civilization you go. So picking up a signal half way up the Sagittarius-Carina arm would be super super rare, and really make you jump in your chair.

I would love for some of these rare signals further into the black to not be of human origin. So like finding ancient half buried ruins of old civilizations. Of course those wouldn't be sending out a signal, but there could be other ways to detect them. Specialized scanner modules?

edit: wording and supplementary text

 

[sandkid]

^ This here is the proper application of RNG. While I'm fairly certain this RNG would be skewed because of how die rolls are generated in a virtual environment, it might in fact be better than what I'm currently seeing. Certainly would make it a treat to come across something without it feeling like I'm being haunted by the USS (which I think my luck in this game would be doubly skewed).

I get what you mean on being haunted...No Man's Sky, for all the things it (eventually) got right is a prime example of RNG run amok. Oh look! A poison planet for the fifth time today! Oh look! A tree I've seen on every single Poison Planet, but with blue leaves instead of orange!

Without sky forge data, it'd be hard to build an exact table...but the way I see it, in simple math, is that as an explorer I want to find something:

1) Not very interesting every 750 to 1250 ly traveled in one direction.
2) Kinda interesting every 1250 to 2500 traveled in one direction.
3) Really interesting every 2500 to 5000 ly traveled in one direction.
4) Incredible every 5000 to 10000 ly traveled in one direction.

It's a really basic doubling...but let's take the 'incredible' as the example: a 5000ly range for ONE incredible find means a very small portion of the player base will ever find such a thing...especially if you have to view planets to find them. So, a thorough explorer looking at nooks and crannies and the like has a higher chance even with such a large range. And when they do, the passion (not the credits) is what pays out. These are what make other dedicated explorers excited - being the 'next one' to find something amazing, and having the drive to do so.

You want the 'not interesting stuff' to be out there for commanders who aren't terribly thorough - call it the freebie argument. They don't deserve to find anything if they won't take exploring seriously...but this is a game, not a real-life profession. Not very interesting is the current SRV crash sites you can find...two materials, maybe a cargo container or two, and two skimmers that are effectively not dangerous at all.

Kinda interesting is where the sweet spot is - it's like that one good golf swing. They keep you playing. Kinda interesting is lore text from data points, or multiple cargo containers of a valuable commodity, or just a really neat set-piece (multiple ships crashed together, like the Thargoid wrecks).

Really interesting is what dedicated explorers would call kinda interesting...they find these and go "aw shucks". Non-dedicated explorers (particularly rookie commanders) get really excited by such a find. Really interesting should be quite valuable and give the false impression that exploring can make a lot of money (if you could find these more often). Dedicated explorers find these as nice bonuses to an already rewarding experience.

 

[MBaldelli]

I get what you mean on being haunted...No Man's Sky, for all the things it (eventually) got right is a prime example of RNG run amok. Oh look! A poison planet for the fifth time today! Oh look! A tree I've seen on every single Poison Planet, but with blue leaves instead of orange!

Welcome to my mother's side of the family's luck; which I affectionately call The Briere Luck™. If I gamble, I never win. If I need something I get it rarely. If I don't need it, I see it by the truckloads.

You want the 'not interesting stuff' to be out there for commanders who aren't terribly thorough - call it the freebie argument. They don't deserve to find anything if they won't take exploring seriously...but this is a game, not a real-life profession. Not very interesting is the current SRV crash sites you can find...two materials, maybe a cargo container or two, and two skimmers that are effectively not dangerous at all.

I know that the devs can tweak parts of the code for the rarities on something outside the Bubble, but I'm not entirely sure whether this tweaking has limitations. I get the impression that it does. For example, I know that after 500 LY I'm no longer seeing pirates and distress signals, and after 1,000 LY those space-born USS are always Degraded Signal Sources.

Kinda interesting is where the sweet spot is - it's like that one good golf swing. They keep you playing. Kinda interesting is lore text from data points, or multiple cargo containers of a valuable commodity, or just a really neat set-piece (multiple ships crashed together, like the Thargoid wrecks).

This is where I think we might be running into coding limitations.

During my last run out I was about 1,200 LY out from the Bubble and came across crash wreckage with two occupied life pods. The wreck looked like a Cobra MK III and all the cargo containers I scanned were all weapons related making it fairly easy to assume that the ship was a crashed Gun Runner.

What's a ship like this doing out that far out here that crashed? I would assume that there was a base on the planet or one of the nearby planets... But nothing. It was just an event of a crashed ship. This makes zero sense as there was and would be no bases this far out for gun runners to hide out at. In a believable universe that far out from the Bubble would indicate a stronghold, not a remote base given how self-supporting the location would have to be that far outside the Bubble.

That's where RNG is failing this game (IMNERHO).. It has little believability because it's just another isolated instance created for the entertainment of the players.

 

[sandkid]

Welcome to my mother's side of the family's luck; which I affectionately call The Briere Luck™. If I gamble, I never win. If I need something I get it rarely. If I don't need it, I see it by the truckloads.



I know that the devs can tweak parts of the code for the rarities on something outside the Bubble, but I'm not entirely sure whether this tweaking has limitations. I get the impression that it does. For example, I know that after 500 LY I'm no longer seeing pirates and distress signals, and after 1,000 LY those space-born USS are always Degraded Signal Sources.



This is where I think we might be running into coding limitations.

During my last run out I was about 1,200 LY out from the Bubble and came across crash wreckage with two occupied life pods. The wreck looked like a Cobra MK III and all the cargo containers I scanned were all weapons related making it fairly easy to assume that the ship was a crashed Gun Runner.

What's a ship like this doing out that far out here that crashed? I would assume that there was a base on the planet or one of the nearby planets... But nothing. It was just an event of a crashed ship. This makes zero sense as there was and would be no bases this far out for gun runners to hide out at. In a believable universe that far out from the Bubble would indicate a stronghold, not a remote base given how self-supporting the location would have to be that far outside the Bubble.

That's where RNG is failing this game (IMNERHO).. It has little believability because it's just another isolated instance created for the entertainment of the players.

You're absolutely right about 'believable' coding - and it, unfortunately, takes a little more effort. But not so much as to be a pain. Honestly, it's these sorts of details that separate good games from great games.

Again, not a developer myself, but I have to believe there is a means to codify the generator such that based on certain simple parameters (like the scan table post of colonized, fringe, the black) certain assets are or are not populated. Then you apply the actual RNG to that resulting list.

From what I can gather, the OP idea is mostly ok when it comes to colonized space and the fringe around it...it's the black that will be challenging. Again, you're absolutely right there is a scale of 'believability' at play when it comes to an environment best described as "the black".

So while the whole Type A through Type C structure theoretically works, even with basic number generators applied across the board, it doesn't fully solve the problem of comprehensive, sensible, and engaging environments. Other systems besides USS need to be at play for it all to make sense.

Your Gun Runner isn't the problem - the lack of the base is, or a reason for that base even existing. Here's the kicker: suppose that base does exist...as an abandoned, failed colony. Our Gun Runner accidentally stumbled on a transmission paying high credits for weapons due to a colony insurrection and took it upon himself to get the deal. He doesn't know the transmission is looping and has been for 20 years. He had a breakdown on the way, hence his crash.

You now have a multi-part, emergent gameplay system at work: scanning a data interface at the wreckage reveals the contract, which leads you to pick up his search...only to discover the age of the base and that it is long-since abandoned. The actual value of this little adventure may be a few thousand credits...but the experience is entirely more valuable. You found your own little story - and that is precisely what exploration is about. Finding stories, putting together puzzle pieces, or just seeing what nobody else has seen.


Back on topic - the introduction of a more robust and varied USS system for surface (and space) for deep-space would be a an excellent way to expand upon deep-space exploration. Ultimately, I fly out in the black to see new places - that's my primary drive - but I would be lying if I didn't wish there was at least something to do occasionally besides snap cool screenshots and scan stellar bodies.

FD has the right idea of expanding mining out into deep-space - this makes sense, the whole 'find the mother-lode' experience and what not. Beyond 'naturally occurring' finds like this though...exploring is lacking.

That lack can either be addressed with more variance in naturally-occurring finds we can interact with (icy and volcanic worlds pose some potential here) or with more 'unnatural' finds, like human settlements, pirate camps, or even Thargoid and Guardian finds. We know the last two are intended to be very scarce and unique, given their centrality to the story...but the others are what fill out those "not interesting" to "kinda interesting" gaps.

 

[MK Regular]

Ugh, stop coming up with ideas that I want to +1. I've seen four of your ideas in the past hour that I want to +1. Stop making me spread rep around just so I can +1 you, dammit!

 

[sandkid]

Ugh, stop coming up with ideas that I want to +1. I've seen four of your ideas in the past hour that I want to +1. Stop making me spread rep around just so I can +1 you, dammit!

I'll take that as a compliment.

That's the problem with being in the black - lots of time to think on ideas, figure out how they're bad, tweak them until they're good...and then, you know, post them. It's just like dumping millions of exploration data. Nobody turns in couple hundred thousand credits. No sir! 6 million minimum, and that's an iffy idea!

 

[MK Regular]

I'll take that as a compliment.

That's the problem with being in the black - lots of time to think on ideas, figure out how they're bad, tweak them until they're good...and then, you know, post them. It's just like dumping millions of exploration data. Nobody turns in couple hundred thousand credits. No sir! 6 million minimum, and that's an iffy idea!

I know the feeling. Just letting yourself run on autopilot and think about whatever you want is an excellent way to stave of boredom

 

[CMDR Yates]

I agree with this idea.

We need more stuff to find and do on planets, and driving around on the surface randomly stumbling on wreckage every five minutes, like we do currently, undermines the sense of isolation and scale of the galaxy, and hurts immersion.

I'd only add that I'd like to see Type C also having a chance to spawn escape pods, because the idea of rescuing long lost astronauts is pretty exciting. Escape Pod spawns should be rare enough to keep it a novelty, but common enough to make the sites worth checking out (maybe 10% of all Type C instances). Escape Pods, either in general or just in these cases, should either be a lot more valuable, or have a small RNG chance of giving a huge payout (the rescued person was extremely wealthy and has decided to reward you).

Also, I think the spawn rates for these should drop drastically away from human habitation; like a 0.01% chance per planetary body, but we can also detect the signals from much further away due to being far from the background comms chatter of civilisation. This way, we'd still have a reasonable chance of encountering one or two of these on a short exploration trip, but we'd still feel like it was a rare thing we had to work to track down.

 

[Ronzer]

What's a ship like this doing out that far out here that crashed?

While I agree with the OP and though I haven't been out that far much, I have crash landed on a moon, because I didnt realize I was about to. I've landed on many moons, which got me a bit lazy, assuming it'd take longer to reach the ground than it did. Point is, the same silly mistake can happen far away, maybe even more frequent, than in the bubble. More frequent per capita, I mean!

I was surpised the first long range passenger mission I took, that as I got closer to the tourist spot they wanted to see, more ships would be seen. Of course! Tourist vessels. What I was wanting, then, was to see more of them enroute. But, due to how many systems there are, and ways to get out there...it somewhat made sense.

Fly Dangerous

 

[sandkid]

I agree with this idea.

We need more stuff to find and do on planets, and driving around on the surface randomly stumbling on wreckage every five minutes, like we do currently, undermines the sense of isolation and scale of the galaxy, and hurts immersion.

I'd only add that I'd like to see Type C also having a chance to spawn escape pods, because the idea of rescuing long lost astronauts is pretty exciting. Escape Pod spawns should be rare enough to keep it a novelty, but common enough to make the sites worth checking out (maybe 10% of all Type C instances). Escape Pods, either in general or just in these cases, should either be a lot more valuable, or have a small RNG chance of giving a huge payout (the rescued person was extremely wealthy and has decided to reward you).

Also, I think the spawn rates for these should drop drastically away from human habitation; like a 0.01% chance per planetary body, but we can also detect the signals from much further away due to being far from the background comms chatter of civilisation. This way, we'd still have a reasonable chance of encountering one or two of these on a short exploration trip, but we'd still feel like it was a rare thing we had to work to track down.

So, slight spin-off (and more work for devs)...let's take your idea of escape pods and alter it a little: "Deep-Space Remains"

New commodity for Search & Rescue that is high value (100k+ credits each). If you apply your rarity idea to the already 'rare' Type C find, you just created a basic value find. Ancient astronauts (surviving) is highly unlikely. More importantly, that sort of find is probably scripted by FDev - the generation ships come to mind - and wouldn't be applicable to an RNG system without reducing the 'wow' factor.

What DOES make sense (and could be quite hard to find in any recognizable or usable state, given stellar radiation, extreme temperatures, and possibly geological activity) is finding the remains of lost explorers or colonists. Particularly for colonies, as they failed they would have to storage the dead for biological contamination purposes (and because throwing them out the airlock, while efficient, is not so good for morale). So, a commodity that is human remains - grisly, but scientifically interesting as well as 'story' interesting. Search & Rescue would want to learn from these remains to prevent future disasters, or close cases of missing persons that went into deep-space.

So, a rare commodity for Search & Rescue has the chance to spawn for Abandoned Transmission Tower USSs.

 

[CMDR Yates]

So, slight spin-off (and more work for devs)...let's take your idea of escape pods and alter it a little: "Deep-Space Remains"

New commodity for Search & Rescue that is high value (100k+ credits each). If you apply your rarity idea to the already 'rare' Type C find, you just created a basic value find. Ancient astronauts (surviving) is highly unlikely. More importantly, that sort of find is probably scripted by FDev - the generation ships come to mind - and wouldn't be applicable to an RNG system without reducing the 'wow' factor.

What DOES make sense (and could be quite hard to find in any recognizable or usable state, given stellar radiation, extreme temperatures, and possibly geological activity) is finding the remains of lost explorers or colonists. Particularly for colonies, as they failed they would have to storage the dead for biological contamination purposes (and because throwing them out the airlock, while efficient, is not so good for morale). So, a commodity that is human remains - grisly, but scientifically interesting as well as 'story' interesting. Search & Rescue would want to learn from these remains to prevent future disasters, or close cases of missing persons that went into deep-space.

So, a rare commodity for Search & Rescue has the chance to spawn for Abandoned Transmission Tower USSs.

Sounds great! I'm wholeheartedly agreed. [up]

I don't even think it would be particularly hard work to implement, given that it could just use existing art elements tweaked slightly and renamed.

 

[sandkid]

Sounds great! I'm wholeheartedly agreed. [up]

I don't even think it would be particularly hard work to implement, given that it could just use existing art elements tweaked slightly and renamed.

Nah...I'm sure FD will draw out emaciated, decompressed, and chemically/radioactively/temperature burned corpses you just...uh...scoop. Instead of the typical clang you get from loading a cargo container, you get a soft thud. Maybe even a mildly squishy thud.

We're going for immersion, right? Right!?