Proposal Discussion Taxes, oh yes

[Yellonet]

Well, most of us probably have more or less an aversion to taxes, especially on payday, but in the game taxes can be a interesting addition to trading.

Tax in the game would be a percentage of the profit when the player sell or buy something, profit should be determined on local prices, not on where you bought the goods, this would add the the complexity of mostly trading, though it could also apply to any other transaction of credits.

The tax level for each system would of course depend on a lot of things, political system, type of system, system wealth and also other factors that can be influenced by players such as conflicts, piracy and more.
There would also be different taxes on different categories of goods and services.

Perhaps the most important thing with taxes would be slow the rate at which you can earn money with bigger and bigger ships.
The way that would work would be that taxes would increase on a sliding scale depending on how much you buy and sell (how much you load or unload in your ship) at any one time a single station ("any one time" would be until you travel to another system and back again).
The profit would still be higher than with a small ship, but the profit percentage would be lower.
This would have several consequences, the end game for traders become more challenging, because either you have to really find the golden trade routes to minimize the tax you have to pay, or you have to seek out ways to evade tax all together...
Bribe local official to let you get away without paying tax?
Fool the cargo amount scan to make it seem that you are selling or bying less or nothing?
Perhaps there would even be certain tax police that go around trying to bust tax evaders...

Would this add anything of value, or is it just over complicating things? Discuss!

 

[Rickenbacker]

I think this would be an unnecesary layer of complication on top of the economy. Profits should be adjustable anyway, without having to add another mechanic to the game.

 

[Darkfyre99]

Rather than taxes of profits, I would rather see import tariffs, which would be a small percentage of the value of any cargo you offload. After all, if you lose money, does that mean you get a tax refund?

Then I would like to see messages on the bulletin board by independant local captains who would be willing to meet you in space to exchange your cargo for credits... tariff free. Hopefully, they're legitimate smugglers, and not police or pirates.

 

[Mister]

Well there's a number of approaches to taxation depending on how a government approaches it.
You have import fees, Value added tax, profit tax, income tax and so on.
I think either a set import fee on specific goods or VAT would be the best approach if you're going to go for tax.

When no doubt players become able to take over chunks of space let them set the VAT on specific goods?

 

[Yellonet]

Rather than taxes of profits, I would rather see import tariffs, which would be a small percentage of the value of any cargo you offload. After all, if you lose money, does that mean you get a tax refund?

Well it would be tax on profit, I think I wrote that somewhere.

Then I would like to see messages on the bulletin board by independant local captains who would be willing to meet you in space to exchange your cargo for credits... tariff free. Hopefully, they're legitimate smugglers, and not police or pirates.

I like these discussions, already another fun and exciting gameplay opportunity pops up

 

[Mal604]

I like the idea. You could have systems with progressive taxation, flat tax, or no tax at all. Communist systems at war could nationalze your cargo for the 'needs of the people', or pay you double the price if you know the right guy.

Otherwise, yes, trading mechinic will get boring after a while. Of course, safe Federal and Imperial systems should stay predictable so not to overwhelm the newcomers, but out in wilderness, politics can add much depth to the game.

 

[Yellonet]

Communist systems at war could nationalze your cargo for the 'needs of the people'

Which would then make you go on a personal vendetta against that system

 

[Aewarin Jameson]

Would this add anything of value, or is it just over complicating things? Discuss!

IMO the current implementation of trading is quite simplistic (buy low, sell high and take into account the system type to estimate prices) and I feel the addition of a local tax per system could enhance things.

It could even be a composite made up of several components that you need to take into account when trading. (Local law enforcement tax paid on bounties; commodities tax for buying / selling goods; construction tax for ship upgrades; etc)

With the background simulator it could also enhance the systems when they go through state changes (boom time; depression; anarchy to feudal; increased piracy; etc)

 

[Ben Ryder]

Could be a simple thing though. Choose to pay taxes or not. Change you might get caught and fined. Doesn't need to be complex. Take a risk and get a fatter profit margin on a big run but at the risk of being fined / outlawed. Slowly the dark side creeps in...

 

[Aewarin Jameson]

Could be a simple thing though. Choose to pay taxes or not. Change you might get caught and fined

I can see people having to fill in tax-returns soon

 

[Togg]

the moment I start having to fill out forms certifying my income amounts, i'm breaking out the weapon hardpoints.

 

[Yellonet]

IMO the current implementation of trading is quite simplistic (buy low, sell high and take into account the system type to estimate prices) and I feel the addition of a local tax per system could enhance things.

It could even be a composite made up of several components that you need to take into account when trading. (Local law enforcement tax paid on bounties; commodities tax for buying / selling goods; construction tax for ship upgrades; etc)

With the background simulator it could also enhance the systems when they go through state changes (boom time; depression; anarchy to feudal; increased piracy; etc)

Absolutely, good idea!

 

[Yellonet]

the moment I start having to fill out forms certifying my income amounts, i'm breaking out the weapon hardpoints.

Anything's possible in Elite!

 

[Aewarin Jameson]

the moment I start having to fill out forms certifying my income amounts, i'm breaking out the weapon hardpoints.

As would I ... but varying amounts of tax at different systems presents more of a challenge for the trader (and let's be honest here - there is nothing to trading at the moment, even though I suck at it ) and perhaps an option to defer paying taxes can present some game-play opportunities : get it wrong, don't save enough or use your money for 1 last deal and the Tax police come in an swoop on you .. before you know it you're running from the law, a fugitive who owes millions to the tax man and that crazy sounding deal from the local pirate may just save your life ..

 

[Yellonet]

I can see people having to fill in tax-returns soon

- What's up?
- Nothing, just waiting for my tax return so I can upgrade the ship...

 

[Ben Ryder]

I can see people having to fill in tax-returns soon

I should be doing my accounts today but instead I have found a way to do something 'related'...

 

[Flin]

IMO the current implementation of trading is quite simplistic (buy low, sell high and take into account the system type to estimate prices) and I feel the addition of a local tax per system could enhance things.

It could even be a composite made up of several components that you need to take into account when trading. (Local law enforcement tax paid on bounties; commodities tax for buying / selling goods; construction tax for ship upgrades; etc)

With the background simulator it could also enhance the systems when they go through state changes (boom time; depression; anarchy to feudal; increased piracy; etc)

I like the simplicity of grossed-up buy and sell prices, but would be happy for additional dimensions in gameplay related to taxes and other duties where we can get a better buy or sell price.

For example, instead of a singular Black Market you can trade with other non-official merchants if you have the right level of reputation to get better price due to not having to pay ... taxes and such.

Of course the level of detail would need to be embedded in the background simulation first.

 

[beelbeebub]

Historically there have been two reasons for smuggling

A) the cargo is outright illegal, drugs, guns, slaves etc
B) to avoid the tax on the otherwise legal cargo, tobacco and alcohol

Right now ED implements one illicit market (A) but without taxes it's hard to implement (B).

It would be cool if you could mislabel cargo (I think FD have mentioned this) so your cargo of grain is actually alcohol (it's a derivative of grain officer!) then you might make more money smuggling booze than straight shipping it (but having to pay import duty)

It would also give FD another economic lever, especially if we bet multiple station in system or trade alliances (like a space EU)

 

[Yellonet]

Historically there have been two reasons for smuggling

A) the cargo is outright illegal, drugs, guns, slaves etc
B) to avoid the tax on the otherwise legal cargo, tobacco and alcohol

Right now ED implements one illicit market (A) but without taxes it's hard to implement (B).

It would be cool if you could mislabel cargo (I think FD have mentioned this) so your cargo of grain is actually alcohol (it's a derivative of grain officer!) then you might make more money smuggling booze than straight shipping it (but having to pay import duty)

It would also give FD another economic lever, especially if we bet multiple station in system or trade alliances (like a space EU)

That's a very good idea, you could basically be a smuggler of anything, but depending on if you smuggle something illegal or to evade taxes you could potentially be caught for different crimes with different penalties.

 

[StarTux]

Taxes would be interesting, nice way to slow down credits if needed without being overly obvious or obnoxious if done without the need for us to fill in actual forms lol.

Imagine some form of import duty on Lavian Grub Liquor, you can pay this and make less in profit, or try to smuggle the stuff past in your Orca and sale for more on the black market, but if you get caught the fine will be even more imposing.