General / Off-Topic The art of lies

[verminstar]

So heres a little chat with my daughter about what I described as an important life skill. The term doesnt confuse her she knows my idiocies well enough, but being good at telling lies is something she doesnt understand. The practice of doing it and seeking to improve ones ability at getting away with it...I personally found that part quite thrilling when I was married...meant I thought of effective lying as an art form.

Describing it as an artform, and the apparent pride in what one sees as achievments in life...thats what confuses her...and me to a degree and heres why...

How do I differentiate between right and wrong when I think of wrong as being right? How do ye trust someone who ye know is a self confessed lair and proud of it? Answer...if they were a liar, then what makes ye think they telling the truth now?

One of lifes little mysteries. Point...we all tell lies and anyone who says they dont are liars. Missus asks the dreaded question...¨honey ye think I look fat in this?¨...hubby bites his lip and decides not to say the first thing that enters his mind and takes a bit before answering...

Missus says...¨I wont be mad I just want ye to be honest with me ¨insert forename¨ which means shes serious...lying through her teeth but still serious at the time...

These funny little stories could go on all day and night like the parents who tell their kids the truth behind Santa every year...however ye dress it up, a lie is a lie and there is a certain skill involved in being good at it so lets be honest...how good are you and do you think its an important life skill too?

Or would ye have just taken the blue pill had ye known that Morpheus lied all along?

TLDR...just havin a rant cos I can...its not often I confuse meself but today, I did ^

 

[Stigbob]

I'm a rubbish liar but I make up for it by being very good at brutal honesty.

Life's too short to make it overcomplicated.

 

[Jenner]

Lying to protect someone's feelings, although perhaps defensible, is still not something I would be proud of. Yes, even the most truthful person out there is probably guilty of a few 'white lies', but I don't think we as moral individuals should become prideful in our ability to deceive others.

 

[verminstar]

But what is moral when individuals morals can literally be poles apart? What some might think of as right, others will see as wrong? If its a question of morals, then thats a whole other aspect which is subjective to emotion. Remove emotion from this and ye have Stigbob...no offence intended btw its actually a compliment of sorts...few have the bottle in life to live like that in all areas of their life and still actually have a life...

Certainly its not a good feeling lying to yer nearest and dearest but most can agree that someone believing a lie can be the best thing for them sometimes...especially when the cold hard truth is the doctors dont think yer gonna last the night and its gonna be really really painful right to the end...

Sometimes the cold hard truth is not the best thing they need to hear at all...tis a special sorta person could do that to those they hold most dear in their darkest hour...I know I couldnt do it but within all of us, there is a line we do not cross. Some lines are further back than others there is no one size fits all because its subjective to emotion which is unpredictable by nature...

Ok Im trying to simplify what I mean and failing badly...again lol

 

[Chris Simon]

I would not call lying an art. It's more like a sport, or maybe a lottery. Sometimes it works out, sometimes it doesn't.

 

[Gortron]

But what is moral when individuals morals can literally be poles apart? What some might think of as right, others will see as wrong? If its a question of morals, then thats a whole other aspect which is subjective to emotion. Remove emotion from this and ye have Stigbob...no offence intended btw its actually a compliment of sorts...few have the bottle in life to live like that in all areas of their life and still actually have a life...

Certainly its not a good feeling lying to yer nearest and dearest but most can agree that someone believing a lie can be the best thing for them sometimes...especially when the cold hard truth is the doctors dont think yer gonna last the night and its gonna be really really painful right to the end...

Sometimes the cold hard truth is not the best thing they need to hear at all...tis a special sorta person could do that to those they hold most dear in their darkest hour...I know I couldnt do it but within all of us, there is a line we do not cross. Some lines are further back than others there is no one size fits all because its subjective to emotion which is unpredictable by nature...

Ok Im trying to simplify what I mean and failing badly...again lol

Verm, you are a good guy because you doubt yourself. I know quite a lot about you and respect you because you are honest.

 

[Arry]

So heres a little chat with my daughter about what I described as an important life skill. The term doesnt confuse her she knows my idiocies well enough, but being good at telling lies is something she doesnt understand. The practice of doing it and seeking to improve ones ability at getting away with it...I personally found that part quite thrilling when I was married...meant I thought of effective lying as an art form.

Describing it as an artform, and the apparent pride in what one sees as achievments in life...thats what confuses her...and me to a degree and heres why...

How do I differentiate between right and wrong when I think of wrong as being right? How do ye trust someone who ye know is a self confessed lair and proud of it? Answer...if they were a liar, then what makes ye think they telling the truth now?

One of lifes little mysteries. Point...we all tell lies and anyone who says they dont are liars. Missus asks the dreaded question...¨honey ye think I look fat in this?¨...hubby bites his lip and decides not to say the first thing that enters his mind and takes a bit before answering...

Missus says...¨I wont be mad I just want ye to be honest with me ¨insert forename¨ which means shes serious...lying through her teeth but still serious at the time...

These funny little stories could go on all day and night like the parents who tell their kids the truth behind Santa every year...however ye dress it up, a lie is a lie and there is a certain skill involved in being good at it so lets be honest...how good are you and do you think its an important life skill too?

Or would ye have just taken the blue pill had ye known that Morpheus lied all along?

TLDR...just havin a rant cos I can...its not often I confuse meself but today, I did ^

Interesting: Very to be honest, because today's world, expects to be lied to, at almost every opportunity.

Example: If you need small print, then you are not being totally honest; with the eye catching big print.

I spent my whole childhood, having to lie, most of the time. Mostly as a survival instinct. Now, for dacades, I don't have to and so wherever possible; I don't.

When the misses asks, dose my rear look big in this? I can say yes, but if you get the next size up; you will look great.

I have nothing to hide really; not from those around me, because if they don't like what I have to say. It is not my problem, or my issue; It is theirs.

Just because I am honest, it dose not mean I have to be horrible. Being 'diplomatic' is a major part of being acceptably honest and I something refuse to say anything on a subject, because some people are too fixed in their opinion, to want to hear, what I may have to say.

Small thing: I don't have any offspring and so have been spared the embarrassing questions they bring.

As to telling about Santa? By them a book of the myths, just make sure you read it first, so you can answer all the questions.

 

[Arry]

Verm, you are a good guy because you doubt yourself. I know quite a lot about you and respect you because you are honest.

Yes this ^ ^

He wants to be a good example to the little one and to do so, is to self improve him self. Which can only be a good thing.

 

[Talarin]

Lying to protect someone's feelings, although perhaps defensible, is still not something I would be proud of. Yes, even the most truthful person out there is probably guilty of a few 'white lies', but I don't think we as moral individuals should become prideful in our ability to deceive others.

I don't know. Couldn't you argue that some lies are actually very altruistic and even necessary in a social environment? Surely telling the brutal truth all the time is immoral?

 

[Stigbob]

I don't know. Couldn't you argue that some lies are actually very altruistic and even necessary in a social environment? Surely telling the brutal truth all the time is immoral?

Justice.
Fairness.
Equality.
Democracy.

All examples of commonly told lies. You can tell brutal truths without being brutal in the delivery.

 

[Bob Lighthouse]

Somewhere between:

Say what you want and be who you are, because those who matter don’t mind, and those who matter don’t mind.

And the Noble Eightfold Path
(right view, right resolve, right speech, right conduct, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, and right concentration)


lies the perfect answer.



Everyone lies.

 

[verminstar]

Justice.
Fairness.
Equality.
Democracy.

All examples of commonly told lies. You can tell brutal truths without being brutal in the delivery.

True equality is a bare faced lie...if a woman hits ye a slap, its only equality when ye hit her back which many would see as the wrong thing to do...but to do anything else isnt technically equality. Those who demand such things clearly dont think it through I find.

Democracy? Pff ye whatever I stopped believing in democracy a long time ago and stopped voting because of it. Then again, politics in Northern Ireland could be best described as tribal. Dont go down this rabbit hole, they will lock the thread so best to just skim over that one.

Justice is a joke to me but then Im old fashioned...eye fer an eye, life fer a life. Seeing the guilty walk away from court cos they threw lots of money at a dodgy brief who got them off on a technicality...is that justice? Or something less wholesome? Thats more or less a good example of everything thats gone wrong with our so called justice system...its why I support a very different sorta justice...the sort that operates outside the law.

I know thats wrong because of the damage this does to some...but the cameras rarely tell the whole story, they seek merely to sell the story so the more shocking, the better. So what people read in the papers and see on the news...thats not the whole story just a heavily edited version of it and this is something I know fer a fact because Ive seen it happen many times. Its why I no longer use social media or read a daily newspaper...I simply dont trust what I read or see on the news anymore...in many ways I find meself agreeing with the ginger buffoon Trump about fake news because Ive seen so many examples of it.

Hmm...this is veering into political again...damned hard trying to put this into words without being at least a little political. Maybe the mods should close it...would save me the trouble of trying to word it without offending someone because I dont mean to...but...humans.

Long story short...Im not a good person even though many seem to think I am. I do try to be a good father but this unfortunately means lying to conceal the bad parts to my own daughter and this is a hurt that cuts deep. It does so because Im afraid she will judge me differently as she grows into an adult. What I do is wrong and I know its wrong...but its right fer me and I wont change because Im not sure I can change even if I wanted to...which I dont anyway so its a moot point.

I dunno what Im trying to say anymore...I cant give clear details because to do so is without any doubt whatsoever gonna break a few dozen forum rules and while I might revel in being contrary, I do actually like having forum privileges to post at all...always feel like Im on a final warning with ye guys because of the last time I got punished fer breaking those rules.

I just cant explain the situation without crossing that line so...ye so I tried to dress it up as a general question when actually its more of a very personal issue thats confusing hell outta me and Im not easily confused in life...I dont handle it too well because Ive always been absolutely certain about what I do...nowadays I doubt meself and thats not a good feeling ^

 

[Stigbob]

I think people's feelings are more important than the truth when you're giving an opinion. Brutal honesty is something people nowadays are proud of because the perceived alternative is telling everyone they're always right all the time, but there's something called 'tact' that people seem to have lost. If someone looks like a clown in their makeup, I'll try and steer them towards fixing it without actually telling them they look awful.

No. People pretend their feelings are hurt when they can't argue against what was said and want to stop it being said. Its used to present crazy idea's like climate change denial as being a mainstream rational argument instead of a 1000-1 edge case as the press are forced to present it in a "balanced" fifty fifty way instead of just mocking the denier in case people take offense.

Tact is all well and good, provided it doesn't go so far the point is lost. We are well past that point now and the point is frequently banned outright. No subject should ever be verboten no matter how emotive.

 

[verminstar]

No. People pretend their feelings are hurt when they can't argue against what was said and want to stop it being said. Its used to present crazy idea's like climate change denial as being a mainstream rational argument instead of a 1000-1 edge case as the press are forced to present it in a "balanced" fifty fifty way instead of just mocking the denier in case people take offense.

Tact is all well and good, provided it doesn't go so far the point is lost. We are well past that point now and the point is frequently banned outright. No subject should ever be verboten no matter how emotive.

I may not be the smartest but even I wouldnt deny that climate change is becoming a problem...those who do usually all hail from the same place and considering some the stupidity that leaks out from there from time to time, its hardly that surprising. Just leave them to their own devices and sooner or later they will destroy themselves anyway...its already started some would argue.

See how I didnt name the country? Now they only get offended by a truth and truth always hurts which means they get offended...a point you yerself make with different words and frankly I agree absolutely 100%.

I think its sad we have come to think along these lines at all...how everything has to be worded right so we dont get snowflake invasions. Brutal honesty is sorely needed in this case but when it means change, the denials will start in earnest that the problem exists at all.

So while I agree with the concept of fake news, this is one the things I do believe. But why do I believe that when I cant believe a whole raft of other stuff? Probably cos the ones doing the research arent the ones making money out of it, and those with money already have more to lose by being dishonest in the first place. How many actual scientific papers exist from well known names that climate change doesnt exist? Of those that do, lets look closer at their funding shall we? Their motives are biased because they are literally paid to lie...

Then again, so are politicians the world over...and we pay them even though we know they lying to us. Funny old world we live in...no wonder my daughter is confused when ye think of it like that ^

 

[Stigbob]

I may not be the smartest but even I wouldnt deny that climate change is becoming a problem...those who do usually all hail from the same place and considering some the stupidity that leaks out from there from time to time, its hardly that surprising. Just leave them to their own devices and sooner or later they will destroy themselves anyway...its already started some would argue.

See how I didnt name the country? Now they only get offended by a truth and truth always hurts which means they get offended...a point you yerself make with different words and frankly I agree absolutely 100%.

I think its sad we have come to think along these lines at all...how everything has to be worded right so we dont get snowflake invasions. Brutal honesty is sorely needed in this case but when it means change, the denials will start in earnest that the problem exists at all.

So while I agree with the concept of fake news, this is one the things I do believe. But why do I believe that when I cant believe a whole raft of other stuff? Probably cos the ones doing the research arent the ones making money out of it, and those with money already have more to lose by being dishonest in the first place. How many actual scientific papers exist from well known names that climate change doesnt exist? Of those that do, lets look closer at their funding shall we? Their motives are biased because they are literally paid to lie...

Then again, so are politicians the world over...and we pay them even though we know they lying to us. Funny old world we live in...no wonder my daughter is confused when ye think of it like that ^

This deserves proper discussion but I'm scared of the Yaffle and his anti-politics mallet.

I think your daughter is right to be confused, I certainly am. Certainties tend to be extremes and extremists ignore details, so the truth is always a grey area (not with climate change though you can see the proof of that in declining sledge sales in the UK over the last four decades).

 

[SMcA]

A lie or an untruth? Deep thoughts.
Not all untruths are lies IMO.
There are white lies, lies to children, downright lies, mistaken truths etc.

A lot depends on the content and reasons for telling untruths.
At school we did an experiment electrolysing H[SUB]2[/SUB]O with sulphuric acid as a catalyst. LIE! we electrolysed dilute sulphuric acid.

So tell the wean that she will understand when she grows up. Then get yerself doon to the pub until everything cools down.

 

[Stigbob]

One can't claim their ideas are superior without giving other lesser ideas a platform. Ridiculing people who believe things you disagree with is not 'honesty', it is ridicule.
The reactionary attitude towards discussion (the opposite of 'snowflake politics') is very unhealthy, and is taking us further and further from the ideals of human interaction.

You can claim your ideas are vastly superior when they are backed by facts, research and all the science and the opposition simply isn't. Debating with some edge case actually gives it credibility.

Things like flat Earthers/creationism/climate change denial/moon landing deniers/religious healing/homeopathy/vaccination opposition.

They all try to be presented as mainstream by screeching they've been picked on when they are treated with the contempt they deserve. They do it because it works.

Obvious political lies going entirely unchallenged for fear of press bias accusations are the same issue entirely.

Its not progress or ideal or healthy at all.

 

[Slange Lands]

Lying is done to help heal others who already have fairly deep wounds. It should only be done as a gesture of love because love surmounts everything.

I must add altruistic love, agape'.

 

[SMcA]

Lying is done to help heal others who already have fairly deep wounds. It should only be done as a gesture of love because love surmounts everything.

I must add altruistic love, agape'.

How do you come to that conclusion?
Have you never listened to a politician?

 

[Bob Lighthouse]

Great piece here(pdf):
http://www2.csudh.edu/ccauthen/576f12/frankfurt__harry_-_on_bull.pdf