The BGS and Exploration Data: Is it time to do something?

[DukeIronHand]

I won't pretend to be a BGS expert so I'll leave the above question to the pros.

What I do know is this:
I work the BGS, follow the BGS, and work with, and know of, several PMF's that do, work it on my on in unclaimed systems, etc, plus read a lot here and on the assorted PMF websites. What I have noticed is, except for certain BGS states (War, etc) all other types of play are out the window with everyone scrambling for Exploration Data.

Trade, mining, missions, what have you are not done because everyone wants "...the Data" to move the BGS% in the direction they want.

Again, I claim no expertise in the matter but, in a game, if everyone is doing just one thing, while ignoring other things, to accomplish an in-game goal then that usually means something is broken.
Is something broken?

 

[MottiKhan]

Data is powerful, but not exactly OP. There are other means of effectively moving influence and resisting data dumps.

The one issue that I see with it is that it seems to be effective during war and civil war. That's an obvious bug and should be squashed.

 

[the100thmonkey]

Exploration data only works when a faction controls a station with a universal cartographics contact.

The problem with data is more that it's the only workable counterbalance to murder. The effects of murder are outsized, especially compared to how easy it is to murder wave after wave of system authority with an engineered ship.

In short, the problem is not exploration data; it's a broader problem with balance within the BGS.

 

[ElectricZ]

Again, I claim no expertise in the matter but, in a game, if everyone is doing just one thing, while ignoring other things, to accomplish an in-game goal then that usually means something is broken.
Is something broken?

Part of the problem is that exploration data itself doesn't mean anything in game. Bounties at least represent a criminal faction losing power and influence, combat bonds have a direct correlation to one side winning or losing a war. Trade represents financial gains. But what use does a minor faction have for the location of a terraformable waterworld halfway across the galaxy, especially when the major factions don't have an in-game use for that information? It's not like they're going to send an expedition out to colonize it.

Among other improvements that could be made for exploration, exploration should be given a local purpose... Call it "Surveying." Sure, systems in the bubble have been mapped, but somebody's got to go out and determine if the Pristine reserves have been overmined and should be downgraded. A faction could generate a mission for someone to take a DSS and go scan the ring, earning reputation and credits like any other mission. Volcanic activity on an HMC may have opened up a vein of previously hard-to-mine metals, go take a DSS or an SRV and check it out. To make it a little more dangerous, a faction might want a CMDR to go take a look at something in a rival's backyard. "Those guys over in System X are suddenly flooding the market with cheap palladium. We want you to find out where they're getting it. By the way, they won't like you snooping around, so either be fast or be strong, just don't be caught..."

In bubble missions like that could generate rep and rewards and also affect the BGS and give explorers something to do other than jumping and honking their way across the galaxy, and turn information into a BGS asset.

 

[Schlack]

I won't pretend to be a BGS expert so I'll leave the above question to the pros.

What I do know is this:
I work the BGS, follow the BGS, and work with, and know of, several PMF's that do, work it on my on in unclaimed systems, etc, plus read a lot here and on the assorted PMF websites. What I have noticed is, except for certain BGS states (War, etc) all other types of play are out the window with everyone scrambling for Exploration Data.

Trade, mining, missions, what have you are not done because everyone wants "...the Data" to move the BGS% in the direction they want.

Again, I claim no expertise in the matter but, in a game, if everyone is doing just one thing, while ignoring other things, to accomplish an in-game goal then that usually means something is broken.
Is something broken?

Yes it should be fixed in the context of a full review of the transactional nature of the BGS.

A couple of well worn points from the last time we had this thread:

Explo is not as op as painted here. It takes time to collect and cash. It is also downright painfully boring to jumphonk (Compare it to murder sprees against sys authority - which is a fun and engaging wing activity). You cannot keep a campaign going and cmdrs in a group interested if that is the only activity. Its sheer tediousness is self limiting. If you're only asking your buddies to jumphonk, they wont be around for very long.

 

[the100thmonkey]

Trade, mining, missions, what have you are not done because everyone wants "...the Data" to move the BGS% in the direction they want.

Just to add to my previous comment, if that's all the factions you're working with are doing, they're not very good at the BGS!

 

[duckofdeath]

It takes a lot of time to collect all lot of exploration data. It's not OP, it's just one of those rare instances where hardcore explorers aren't effed over by the unbalanced game design.
You can manipulate the BGS a lot more during the time someone is out collecting space maps than the explorer can when they start selling their maps.

 

[DukeIronHand]

Well a couple of you touched on an issue I see. Guess it's not an "problem" I suppose but perhaps "gamey."
A group goes out, explores, collecting millions in Data and then banking it for a latter tick.
Then is unison they swope on a "unsuspecting system" and have their way before any one can react dumping millions in data.
Cool (I guess) but it feels a bit phoney.

In addition, again as mentioned above, what in the world does faction "ABC" care about a collection of ice rocks 400 LY away?

Dunno. Just seems that any one thing should not be the "always go to" for BGS work. Data seems to be the BGS "meta" anymore. This isn't some major whine or "rage quit" but it takes some of the fun out of whole thing rubbing my nose into the fact that "it's a game."

 

[Apos]

The real question is what is intended. What is the real problem related to exploration. Because if we take murder for example, FD seems to like having some strong swings or haven't found a way to properly provide an alternative.

So there can be two questions:

a) Is the problem the transactional nature which results in extreme swings when data dropping is "gamed"?
or
b) Is the problem the fact that the "Sell Page" function only counts as 1 transaction?

Problem (a) is a much bigger problem in itself and it involves other activities like murder and combat bonds/bounties, creating distinct problems and imbalances in each of them.
Problem (b) is something that should be fixed if the current optimal strength is the amount intended. And then the activity wouldn't be "gamey".

So what is all comes down to: What is the issue in FD's point of view? (a) or (b)?

 

[Apos]

For the record, when FD buffed mission boards in 2.4, they were very comparable to the stronger of activities. I think that if:

i) They manage to fix the issues and get us back to that point of mission generation.
and
ii) Combat bonds start working like murder and count on the spot/kill instead of per hand in.

Then exploration could be toned down slightly, but not too much. Too much would just mean turning exploration to another "trading", aka, the thing you barely care about for the BGS anymore.

And massacre missions need to start working during wars. That's still not fixed. Also the fix to stop people from stacking them was a bit severe by the looks of it. They are by far among the most time inefficient type of mission now, so they should have their BGS effect compensated in strength. Same goes for hostage liberation missions and piracy missions. All of them need to have a much bigger influence gain factor.

 

[DNA-Decay]

Didn't we do this thread already?


I seem to recall the themes of:
Explo balances murder.
Explo is a bit of a chore.
OP has an agenda.
Don't "fix" one thing without a general balance pass (examples).
etc

 

[[Diplomacy] Carnegie]

Didn't we do this thread already?

Pretty sure we've had ALL the threads already

 

[Deleted member 38366]

You can "call for Data" - but it isn't easily generated and doesn't appear out of thin air. Can't buy it with Credits either. That's the big caveat.
Even a "Roach to Riches" Speed-Run will be gone after a single use and those still take their due time.

In the same time, other suitable Ships can achieve similar effects with Trading or executing Missions. Even more so, if negative action is taken against other Factions in parallel.
You won't be doing any of that hundreds of LY out honking like a mad bunny or running xxxx Ls towards that ELW.

So while few Pages of valuable Exploration Data do make a pretty big dent, you'd have to get that first. And that's not done in the same time a Trader can make 10+ Deliveries or grind Missions with the same intensity.
That takes time, typically entirely unsuitable for anything one might need within the current BGS Cycle. Rather think Days or even longer. Like a one-off BGS hit - albeit one with a fairly long cooldown.

PS.
If anything, I wonder if the increased payouts of Exploration Data were the cause of the increased BGS effect and if that received any balancing attention in regards to moving Influence.

 

[DukeIronHand]

My apologies. If this was a recent topic I missed it.
On a lighter note the new T9 paint jobs are awesome.
Carry on!

 

[the100thmonkey]

Well a couple of you touched on an issue I see. Guess it's not an "problem" I suppose but perhaps "gamey."

Agreed.

A group goes out, explores, collecting millions in Data and then banking it for a latter tick.

The value of the data doesn't matter - it's the transaction that matters.

Then is unison they swope on a "unsuspecting system" and have their way before any one can react dumping millions in data.

Actually, it's best used as a defensive tactic for when players drop into your system and go on a killing spree in a wing.

As I said, exploration data only works when you have a station already, and a group doing the full spectrum of activities can still push their factions while doing things they enjoy. I was a little unfair in my previous post - if all group X is doing is dropping exploration data, they're not going to have very much fun and are missing basic gameplay that isn't as grindy/gamey and can have just as potent an impact while making them more credits.

Cool (I guess) but it feels a bit phoney.

In addition, again as mentioned above, what in the world does faction "ABC" care about a collection of ice rocks 400 LY away?

Dunno. Just seems that any one thing should not be the "always go to" for BGS work. Data seems to be the BGS "meta" anymore. This isn't some major whine or "rage quit" but it takes some of the fun out of whole thing rubbing my nose into the fact that "it's a game."

It's not always an option. In fact, its use is constrained by conflict states, faction ownership of assets and boredom. I'm not saying it's "balanced" (it's not, but cf. my post above); it isn't, however, very much fun. A properly-organised group can minimise these issues by rotating exploration trips (actually, you can even stay in the bubble and just set your filter to systems you haven't visited when you're bimbling around doing other things), or leaving exploration to those weirdos who actually enjoy it.

With reference to what Apos said above, I don't think it's an intended mechanic. It's been in since release and hasn't been revisited. The question is: where do you go from two counterbalancing gamey mechanics? You have a death machine; I have an AspX.

 

[Mangal Oemie]

The discussion here is really about the transactional nature of the BGS, and how that plays out in game play. We have been over this before, and I still think Jane's comment of "the BGS is balanced around a single CMDR in a Cobra" still explains a lot of the trouble,

Everybody posting in this thread loves BSG play, but we also often have to choose between that which is most effective and that which is most fun.

And that's where the imbalance lies:

- honk jump explo farming is more time-efficient and effective in the BGS than actual exploring and scanning bodies in the systems
- kill one pirate or opponent in the CZ and return to cash is more effective than killing loads of pirates and war opponents, and only then dock
- bring in multiple commodities in small numbers has more effect than selling a Cutter load of one commodity
- mining died for the BGS, since they nerfed 0-cost commodities, making it take 3-4 times the time of making a trade run
- the only mechanic where interesting game play and transactions overlap is murder, since each transaction happens per kill - you do not have to dock anywhere to make it count

That is, to be most effective in the BGS, you have to engage in the least interesting game play. Often even immersion breaking game play. Ultimately this needs to go or BGS play dies or CMDRs just burn out, or choose to be less effective and have more fun.

Value needs to be at least a factor:

- in explo, count the number of scanned bodies for BGS, not systems. A simple honk jump would then count as 1, whereas full scans of 25 bodies counts as 25 (and could easily take the same amount of time. You can honk-jump in 42 secs, including jump)
- in BH and combat, count the ships killed, not the number of times you cashed
- in trade, count the tonnage (maybe with a log function on it, so Cutters don't completely dominate)
- restore mined goods to the effect they had before, at least make them equivalent in effect to the time invested compared to trade
- if the above are done, murder needs no adjustment

You could go the other way: nerf murder. But that would just mean that you would reduce BGS play only to the least engaging game play. BGS play shouldn't be "have fun and fail" or "grind and win". It should really be "have fun and be effective, too".

BGS keeps people playing. Daily. For years. Let's not wreck this player base now it has become entirely apparent that the most effective tactics are soul-destroying.

 

[the100thmonkey]

I still think Jane's comment of "the BGS is balanced around a single CMDR in a Cobra" still explains a lot of the trouble.

I learned very quickly that Jane is always right.

Seriously; she's always right. It's supernatural.

 

[DukeIronHand]

BGS keeps people playing. Daily. For years. Let's not wreck this player base now it has become entirely apparent that the most effective tactics are soul-destroying.

No argument here.
Guess I have to wonder why FDev chose a "transactional" model instead of a total value one?
It should have been very clear to them that a "number of transactions" model would be open to gamesmanship.
Whereas a "total value" model helps both individual Cmdr's in their Cobras or large PMF's as value is always value and everything is always equal.

EDIT: Who is "Jane"?

 

[MottiKhan]

I learned very quickly that Jane is always right.

Seriously; she's always right. It's supernatural.

I'm not so sure. She was wrong once. When she thought she mistook something.

EDIT: Who is "Jane"?

Seriously?

Jane Turner. The one true prophet of the BGS. Kneel before her.

 

[IndigoWyrd]

Did they ever fix the sell-your-data-one-at-a-time thing that overinflates the BGS effect?

Personally, I find the BGS to be far too much in the F and not enough in the B (that's Foreground and Background, go wash your mind out with soap). Between the overt amount of influence we already have, and the fixation of manipulating it for... well... it really doesn't do anything anyways. Oh, so that Faction You Like has (Controlling Faction) listed after it on the message board. Wee. Ok, so maybe it changes the legal status of Beer in a system... that's pretty much all you get for your efforts.

If it actually DID something...

If we could actually JOIN a faction...

Even if the Powers supported by said faction had a meaningful impact... like a little discount on goods sold (all of them, not just Commodities, but Fuel, Ships, Transfer costs, everything) then there would really be some meaning to it, but by and large, this sort of thing doesn't even count as imaginary lines on a map... and I get that some people actually enjoy this - somehow, but that's what I don't get. What is there to enjoy when there really isn't any benefit?

I've long thought the entire BGS and Power Play systems could use a heavy reworking - I'll not rehash that right now, it's a wall-of-text, a good wall of text, but still a wall of text.