The biggest problems are still there.

So these new changes in chapter 4 all sound really good. But I must come back down and remind myself that some of the biggest issues with the game are still alive and well as of these announcements.

Issue #1: Persistent NPC's
One of the small things that really break the immersion of the game is very simple, NPC's that come from nowhere and are going nowhere, and only spawn around you after some time. Now obviously a full simulation of every NPC in the galaxy would be a tremendous waste of processing power and probably not even doable, but simple things like giving them clear goals like docking at a station, going to a war zone or mining area, or even a signal source, so that if you decide to follow them to see what they are doing they will carry out that task, would go a long way. Pre-simulating NPC's as you are coming into a system so that it is already populated, instead of it taking 10 seconds for any NPC's to appear is another thing that would really help sweep that ugliness under the rug.

Issue #2: The invisible wall called Supercruise
Apart from the persisting issues of boredom this feature presents, it does one thing which is very important and damaging to the game. It completely isolates you from all activity in the system unless you choose to engage with it. Unless you are equipped with an interdiction module you are utterly cut off from all others, player or NPC. While NPC's can use them, the evasion mini-game at some point becomes so trivially easy to do that engaging with an interdiction is once again completely voluntary. This almost removes all sense of danger from the game. In the original games the rule was very simple, as long as you were close to another ship, you could not use space skip or the star dreamer. This forced you to interact with any ship that came your way, even if it was just passing by harmlessly, the moment of uncertainty as one appeared in the distance was palpable. Supercruise is a blanket of safety that dulls the game to an extreme degree. Even crashing into a star or planet at maximum speed is utterly harmless, rather than the certain death you would expect it to be. Even wars are harmless affairs that take place only inside designated fighting arenas. You can enter an anarchy system at war and be every bit as safe as in a heavily police system at peace.

Perhaps the new persistent signal sources will ease the problem slightly, as you are no longer caught in your own parallel dimension safe from all incursions. But this would appear to only hold for those exact instances. I presume that if you drop from supercruise at a random place you are still safe from all other ships. I'd like to see that even if you do this, your position is broadcast to other players via a signal source that allows discovery, and perhaps, as was promised long ago, that this broadcast appears or is hidden based on your emission level.

The dynamic NPC behaviours and interactions that you see at the completely vestigial nav beacons from the time before supercruise, should be moved out into supercruise for the game to really shine.

Issue #3: The Dead Space around Stations
Similar to supercruise, all stations are dull safe havens due to their use of extremely powerful death rays that none can escape. David Braben once said that police vipers that could be defeated appeared if you broke the law in the old games because it was more fun that way. All the way back in the beta the station weapons were weak enough that popular stations were popular dueling grounds for PvP. All this came to an end with the introduction of the death ray. It is simply another feature that kills the dynamic and interaction of the game. NPC's should again display their dynamic behaviours here, and players should be allowed to risk engagements that can be survived.

Issue #4: The single-purpose ship
Relating somewhat to the issue with interdiction modules, almost every kind of system in the game has this problem. There is a module for scanning, there is a module for finding bounties, there is a module for following high wakes, there is no less than four modules just for mining, - with more to come as I understand, we'll see in the next stream - there is a module for landing on a planet, there is a module for refueling, there is a module for this and that and every little thing. And if you don't have the module you can't do the activity. In order to do something you must return to a station with an outfitter and hope that they have the module you need to do the thing, and then go and do the thing. Combat ships must have combat modules and so can't engage effectively in combat without those modules, and so can't really do anything else.

Compare and contrast this to the older games, to mine, you simply opened fire on an asteroid, bounties were automatically awarded upon killing the criminal, and looting ships were a simple matter of flying into the cargo they dropped on death. This meant the whole game was open to you at any time, making the experience much more varied and exciting, and you could react effectively to the opportunities that arose. There were some exceptions like cabins for passengers, but generally the game was much more accessible like this.

The simple fact is that you must build your ship for a single mission to even perform at that mission at a minimally acceptable level. And every other mission is basically locked out to you. This divides the game up into "that time you flew the mining ship", or "that time you flew the exploration ship", or "that time you flew the combat ship", with no real unexpected events. Like supercruise, it walls up the game for no benefit.

That is all, please consider.
 
I like how ppl commenting "what is still missing" when only part of information about changes is out. You should hold your thoughts when they finish this update.


TL;DR

"You know nothing Jon Snow"
 
So these new changes in chapter 4 all sound really good. But I must come back down and remind myself that some of the biggest issues with the game are still alive and well as of these announcements.

Issue #1: Persistent NPC's
One of the small things that really break the immersion of the game is very simple, NPC's that come from nowhere and are going nowhere, and only spawn around you after some time. Now obviously a full simulation of every NPC in the galaxy would be a tremendous waste of processing power and probably not even doable, but simple things like giving them clear goals like docking at a station, going to a war zone or mining area, or even a signal source, so that if you decide to follow them to see what they are doing they will carry out that task, would go a long way. Pre-simulating NPC's as you are coming into a system so that it is already populated, instead of it taking 10 seconds for any NPC's to appear is another thing that would really help sweep that ugliness under the rug.

Issue #2: The invisible wall called Supercruise
Apart from the persisting issues of boredom this feature presents, it does one thing which is very important and damaging to the game. It completely isolates you from all activity in the system unless you choose to engage with it. Unless you are equipped with an interdiction module you are utterly cut off from all others, player or NPC. While NPC's can use them, the evasion mini-game at some point becomes so trivially easy to do that engaging with an interdiction is once again completely voluntary. This almost removes all sense of danger from the game. In the original games the rule was very simple, as long as you were close to another ship, you could not use space skip or the star dreamer. This forced you to interact with any ship that came your way, even if it was just passing by harmlessly, the moment of uncertainty as one appeared in the distance was palpable. Supercruise is a blanket of safety that dulls the game to an extreme degree. Even crashing into a star or planet at maximum speed is utterly harmless, rather than the certain death you would expect it to be. Even wars are harmless affairs that take place only inside designated fighting arenas. You can enter an anarchy system at war and be every bit as safe as in a heavily police system at peace.

Perhaps the new persistent signal sources will ease the problem slightly, as you are no longer caught in your own parallel dimension safe from all incursions. But this would appear to only hold for those exact instances. I presume that if you drop from supercruise at a random place you are still safe from all other ships. I'd like to see that even if you do this, your position is broadcast to other players via a signal source that allows discovery, and perhaps, as was promised long ago, that this broadcast appears or is hidden based on your emission level.

The dynamic NPC behaviours and interactions that you see at the completely vestigial nav beacons from the time before supercruise, should be moved out into supercruise for the game to really shine.

Issue #3: The Dead Space around Stations
Similar to supercruise, all stations are dull safe havens due to their use of extremely powerful death rays that none can escape. David Braben once said that police vipers that could be defeated appeared if you broke the law in the old games because it was more fun that way. All the way back in the beta the station weapons were weak enough that popular stations were popular dueling grounds for PvP. All this came to an end with the introduction of the death ray. It is simply another feature that kills the dynamic and interaction of the game. NPC's should again display their dynamic behaviours here, and players should be allowed to risk engagements that can be survived.

Issue #4: The single-purpose ship
Relating somewhat to the issue with interdiction modules, almost every kind of system in the game has this problem. There is a module for scanning, there is a module for finding bounties, there is a module for following high wakes, there is no less than four modules just for mining, - with more to come as I understand, we'll see in the next stream - there is a module for landing on a planet, there is a module for refueling, there is a module for this and that and every little thing. And if you don't have the module you can't do the activity. In order to do something you must return to a station with an outfitter and hope that they have the module you need to do the thing, and then go and do the thing. Combat ships must have combat modules and so can't engage effectively in combat without those modules, and so can't really do anything else.

Compare and contrast this to the older games, to mine, you simply opened fire on an asteroid, bounties were automatically awarded upon killing the criminal, and looting ships were a simple matter of flying into the cargo they dropped on death. This meant the whole game was open to you at any time, making the experience much more varied and exciting, and you could react effectively to the opportunities that arose. There were some exceptions like cabins for passengers, but generally the game was much more accessible like this.

The simple fact is that you must build your ship for a single mission to even perform at that mission at a minimally acceptable level. And every other mission is basically locked out to you. This divides the game up into "that time you flew the mining ship", or "that time you flew the exploration ship", or "that time you flew the combat ship", with no real unexpected events. Like supercruise, it walls up the game for no benefit.

That is all, please consider.

I disagee.
Ok, this monument of text warrants more that two words.
I strongly disagree.

The Single Purpose ship is more believable than the All Purpose Ship. We make cars and trucks and boats and aircraft for specific purposes. You wouldn’t ship 200 tons of freight in a Ferrari. You wouldn’t take a tub boat on a pleasure cruise. You wouldn’t send a Cessna into combat.

But, for all those modules you decry, these are exactly what allow you to adapt nearly any ship to nearly any purpose. A stock of modules in your module storage and you’re set for whatever may come your way. Or, like me, you build a fleet of specialized ships, all ready to go at a moment’s notice.

Supercruise works the way it works, period.
Stations are deadly because they need to be - but they can be endured with proper planning.
 
#1 Yep, agree. Why the devs don't prepopulate areas with ships, smoke etc is a bit of a puzzle. I presume it's a technical problem. Fingers crossed they've solved it in the next update.

#2 Kinda agree I prefer the old way, 50/50, but if you died you just restored from save. It did mean a lot of forced docking at random stations so that you could save (I think you could only save while docked?)

Nowadays, lots of people want to be safe to trade. Interdiction used to be harder to avoid (or I've got better at it), but lots of people complained because they just wanted to trade in peace. I think it gives people a choice, to be honest. It's still pretty dangerous out there, but easier to avoid trouble.

Come to think of it, the old way was easy to avoid trouble as well - you just avoid anarchy systems, especially if fully loaded.

Also, if you drop out of supercruise, there is a chance someone will pop in. Is it meant to be worse in low security/anarchy systems? If in pvp, players can see your low wake and choose to follow you if they want.
 
I agree strongly about the NPCs. I would love it if they had a believable set of goals and motivations, and acted accordingly, telegraphing their intentions and reactions. Each player can only follow one NPC or wing, so the amount of state to persist scales linearly with player count.

About station environments - in beta 1&2 you dropped from supercruise at 10km range from star ports, which gave space for last minute chases as well as robbery attempt on departing ships. This was fun. However, since we have highly evolved griefers now, we would need smarter authority vessels that can recognise lurking ships and make them move on.
 
You make some valid points, especially concerning NPCs and the issue of SC being boring at times.

However, I would caution against comparing ED to games that (while sharing lore) are 20 years old or older. I never played the older versions of Elite. Heck, I wasn't even a twinkle in my dad's eye when the original Elite came out. As such, I couldn't really care less how the mechanics worked in those iterations, and I'm sure there are many others who feel the same way. Personally, I say if you want nostalgia, fire up your 80s buzz box and be nostalgic.

As far as stations having dead space around them. Think about this. If you were the head of a corporation that owned a nice big space station, would you want pirates and other ruffians hanging around outside, preying on the traders who are bringing you wealth? I would think not. As such, I agree with the no-fire zones around stations...at least those owned by legitimate entities.

I agree that systems in a state of war should hold a much higher degree of risk when entering them. Interdictions should increase, and not be limited to pirates. Entering an active war zone should mean a high possibility of being interdicted and scanned by security forces (of either warring party), with the threat of destruction being real if you're carrying even remotely questionable cargo. These areas should be really high-income for smugglers bringing in weapons and other wartime supplies, and trade of regular goods should grind to a halt as war persists.

I don't agree that every ship should be able to perform any role with equal ability. There's a reason you don't see a Gulfstream equipped for CAS. We have ships that are better at combat, ships that are better at trading, ships that are better for exploration, and ships that are okay at everything. If anything, I'd like to see more specialized ships. How about a trader option larger than the Type-6, that is cheaper than the Type-7, but can still land on medium pads? How about some new missions that can only be performed in small ships? Why not expand multicrew and give us a dedicated fighter carrier? Or make it where the FDS can actually function as a dropship and deploy multiple commanders in SRVs (SRVs built for various roles)? Or hey, how about a dedicated line of mining ships with built-in refineries?
 
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I am not saying every ship be able to do every role with equal ability. I am saying don't completely lock off that role behind a module that takes up precious hardpoint space.
 
Regarding supercruise, I believe that the game needs a visibility mechanic that relates mass, speed and energy usage, and has partial visibility at the edges of detectability. This will make it possible to go slow, cold and quiet or fast, hot and noisily. This will make supercruise flight more challenging as we will have to watch out for ambiguous contacts, and make large, heavily engineered combat ships very hard to sneak up on someone with alone, giving small, stealthy ships an essential role in initiating ambushes.

Is that large contact that suddenly appears near the station you're heading towards a fully loaded Type-9 Heavy dashing the last few Ls in as it perceives no threats, or is it a hostile Corvette coming out of concealment and bringing up its shields and weapons? Will you hang around for an active scan to tell you or drop to the safety of normal space?
 
So these new changes in chapter 4 all sound really good. But I must come back down and remind myself that some of the biggest issues with the game are still alive and well as of these announcements.

Issue #1: Persistent NPC's
One of the small things that really break the immersion of the game is very simple, NPC's that come from nowhere and are going nowhere, and only spawn around you after some time. Now obviously a full simulation of every NPC in the galaxy would be a tremendous waste of processing power and probably not even doable, but simple things like giving them clear goals like docking at a station, going to a war zone or mining area, or even a signal source, so that if you decide to follow them to see what they are doing they will carry out that task, would go a long way. Pre-simulating NPC's as you are coming into a system so that it is already populated, instead of it taking 10 seconds for any NPC's to appear is another thing that would really help sweep that ugliness under the rug.

Issue #2: The invisible wall called Supercruise
Apart from the persisting issues of boredom this feature presents, it does one thing which is very important and damaging to the game. It completely isolates you from all activity in the system unless you choose to engage with it. Unless you are equipped with an interdiction module you are utterly cut off from all others, player or NPC. While NPC's can use them, the evasion mini-game at some point becomes so trivially easy to do that engaging with an interdiction is once again completely voluntary. This almost removes all sense of danger from the game. In the original games the rule was very simple, as long as you were close to another ship, you could not use space skip or the star dreamer. This forced you to interact with any ship that came your way, even if it was just passing by harmlessly, the moment of uncertainty as one appeared in the distance was palpable. Supercruise is a blanket of safety that dulls the game to an extreme degree. Even crashing into a star or planet at maximum speed is utterly harmless, rather than the certain death you would expect it to be. Even wars are harmless affairs that take place only inside designated fighting arenas. You can enter an anarchy system at war and be every bit as safe as in a heavily police system at peace.

Perhaps the new persistent signal sources will ease the problem slightly, as you are no longer caught in your own parallel dimension safe from all incursions. But this would appear to only hold for those exact instances. I presume that if you drop from supercruise at a random place you are still safe from all other ships. I'd like to see that even if you do this, your position is broadcast to other players via a signal source that allows discovery, and perhaps, as was promised long ago, that this broadcast appears or is hidden based on your emission level.

The dynamic NPC behaviours and interactions that you see at the completely vestigial nav beacons from the time before supercruise, should be moved out into supercruise for the game to really shine.

Issue #3: The Dead Space around Stations
Similar to supercruise, all stations are dull safe havens due to their use of extremely powerful death rays that none can escape. David Braben once said that police vipers that could be defeated appeared if you broke the law in the old games because it was more fun that way. All the way back in the beta the station weapons were weak enough that popular stations were popular dueling grounds for PvP. All this came to an end with the introduction of the death ray. It is simply another feature that kills the dynamic and interaction of the game. NPC's should again display their dynamic behaviours here, and players should be allowed to risk engagements that can be survived.

Issue #4: The single-purpose ship
Relating somewhat to the issue with interdiction modules, almost every kind of system in the game has this problem. There is a module for scanning, there is a module for finding bounties, there is a module for following high wakes, there is no less than four modules just for mining, - with more to come as I understand, we'll see in the next stream - there is a module for landing on a planet, there is a module for refueling, there is a module for this and that and every little thing. And if you don't have the module you can't do the activity. In order to do something you must return to a station with an outfitter and hope that they have the module you need to do the thing, and then go and do the thing. Combat ships must have combat modules and so can't engage effectively in combat without those modules, and so can't really do anything else.

Compare and contrast this to the older games, to mine, you simply opened fire on an asteroid, bounties were automatically awarded upon killing the criminal, and looting ships were a simple matter of flying into the cargo they dropped on death. This meant the whole game was open to you at any time, making the experience much more varied and exciting, and you could react effectively to the opportunities that arose. There were some exceptions like cabins for passengers, but generally the game was much more accessible like this.

The simple fact is that you must build your ship for a single mission to even perform at that mission at a minimally acceptable level. And every other mission is basically locked out to you. This divides the game up into "that time you flew the mining ship", or "that time you flew the exploration ship", or "that time you flew the combat ship", with no real unexpected events. Like supercruise, it walls up the game for no benefit.

That is all, please consider.

On your bike, that is all. Who you talkin' to? FD?

Too minor to worry about. Welcome to the game Cmdr.
 
You appear to be fixated on hard points, interdiction and PvP.

You might be surprised to learn that other players are not.

You might also be surprised to learn that there are some players that actually play the game without engaging in PvP!

However, I am Pleased to see that forum has managed to catch an earlier stage of the rare Bazmeson....
 
I sort of agree about the single-purpose thing. Especially with mining, you absolutely SHOULD be able to mine an asteroid (really inefficiently) just by shooting it with any weapon.

I think ship specialization and dedicated modules should be the BEST way to do something, but not necessarily the ONLY way.
 
I sort of agree about the single-purpose thing. Especially with mining, you absolutely SHOULD be able to mine an asteroid (really inefficiently) just by shooting it with any weapon.

I think ship specialization and dedicated modules should be the BEST way to do something, but not necessarily the ONLY way.

In terms of mining, I'd think it should still be possible for Sideminders to exist. Basic shoot and scoop seems like that shouldn't disappear, though I am kind of looking forward to kitting out a stupid-focused mining vessel once we have the new toys, just to see how hyperspecialized I can get with it. We'll see more details on the next exciting edition of Elite Streaming!
 
I agree with everything except #4.

I like the modules. It doesn't make sense that any ship can just do everything. But I could live without Kill Warrant Scanners, Interdictors, Wake Scanners, Fuel limpets, Fuel scoops (I'm probably missing some) being optional modules.

Now #1 may be a tough nut to crack. I think simply having NPC's at signal sources is enough for now. And I would much rather they added escort missions and NPC wingmen than worry about a universe full of NPC's that you can follow.

Your point about supercruise is spot on.
 
I can entertain the merits of some of these points but I dont fully agree with any of them. I disagree the least about supercruise and the most about module specialization. If every ship could do everything all the time, having a variety of ship attributes would be pointless. It would only exacerbate the current bigger is better problem the game already suffers from. Supercruise as a parallel universe I do kind of see as an issue. It makes it impossible for a fleet to be a fleet. It makes escort missions hollow and clunky if they ever come. Nav lock kinda helps but it's got it's own quorks.
 
I sort of agree about the single-purpose thing. Especially with mining, you absolutely SHOULD be able to mine an asteroid (really inefficiently) just by shooting it with any weapon.

I think ship specialization and dedicated modules should be the BEST way to do something, but not necessarily the ONLY way.

Hey remember the time we mined that iron out with 30mm auto cannons and hellfire missiles, no?, your right neither did I.
 
Issue #3: The Dead Space around Stations
Similar to supercruise, all stations are dull safe havens due to their use of extremely powerful death rays that none can escape. David Braben once said that police vipers that could be defeated appeared if you broke the law in the old games because it was more fun that way. All the way back in the beta the station weapons were weak enough that popular stations were popular dueling grounds for PvP. All this came to an end with the introduction of the death ray. It is simply another feature that kills the dynamic and interaction of the game. NPC's should again display their dynamic behaviours here, and players should be allowed to risk engagements that can be survived.

Couldn't disagree with this more. No single player (or even a large group of players) should have the ability to thumb their nose at a faction. Players are insignificant gnats in the galaxy and should remain so.
 
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