The current state of Chaff

[soma]

I am wondering what other players think about the current implementation of Chaff in the game. The more I fight other players the more I get the impression that the Chaff launcher is very inadequate for protection against opponents with gimbal-heavy loadouts:

• The effects of Chaff last only a few seconds
• Chaff can easily be countered by unlocking the target (or just getting very close to the opponent)
• The Chaff launcher only has 10 charges
• Chaff has a rather long reload which leaves you vulnerable while you wait

(Yes I know that double-chaffing is a thing, but unless I miss something it is a rather complicated maneuver that costs me a fire button, requires a lot of concentration and also only offers a very limited time of protection.)

Edit: Ignore the part about the fire button. Thanks to ciger for pointing out that the hotkey does alternate between Chaff launchers! My bad.


So I get the feeling that the rewards for trying to get good with fixed weapons (which I am trying at the moment) are not as great as I was hoping they would be. Personally I think I would much prefer more effective (and longer lasting) Chaff effects. I think it would make player skill more important in fights and give players who are good pilots an advantage over players who rely on auto-aim.

What do you think?

 

[bamber]

I am wondering what other players think about the current implementation of Chaff in the game. The more I fight other players the more I get the impression that the Chaff launcher is very inadequate for protection against opponents with gimbal-heavy loadouts:

• The effects of Chaff last only a few seconds
• Chaff can easily be countered by unlocking the target (or just getting very close to the opponent)
• the Chaff launcher only has 10 charges
• Chaff has a rather long reload which leaves you vulnerable while you wait

(Yes I know that double-chaffing is a thing, but unless I miss something it is a rather complicated maneuver that costs me a fire group, requires a lot of concentration and also only offers a very limited time of protection.)

So I get the feeling that the rewards for trying to get good with fixed weapons (which I am trying at the moment) are not as great as I was hoping they would be. Personally I think I would much prefer more effective (and longer lasting) Chaff effects. I think it would make player skill more important in fights and give players who are good pilots an advantage over players who rely on auto-aim.

What do you think?

On your points
1. you dump a load of chaff and then move - so I would expect it to be short lasting
2. So effectively you make them fixed weapons so removing their benefit (ie chaff has done what it is meant to do)
3. Use more than 1 chaff launcher - you can also bind to a key
4. use it carfully!

I've found chaff to be a good defence when I am using it and a pain when the opposition uses it - so its probably about right

 

[soma]

On your points
1. you dump a load of chaff and then move - so I would expect it to be short lasting
2. So effectively you make them fixed weapons so removing their benefit (ie chaff has done what it is meant to do)
3. Use more than 1 chaff launcher - you can also bind to a key
4. use it carfully!

I've found chaff to be a good defence when I am using it and a pain when the opposition uses it - so its probably about right

Good points. However:

1. When you fight a decent opponent he will almost always have his nose pointed on you. Thus you need it MOST of the time
2. Thats true. This part of the mechanic is probably fine. Chaff removes the advantage of gimbals.
3. As I said, yes I know we can use more than one chaff launcher. But how do I fire them alternatingly when I use the hotkey? I thought that was only possible with fire groups (maybe I miss something here?)
4. Yeah, sure. But I have only 10 charges. The last good fight I had lasted at least several minutes. I ran out of chaff long before the fight was over.

 

[Eleonore Nali]

It sounds like you want 1 chaff launcher to make you completely immune against gimbal weapons, which would be utterly OP.
Chaff as it is is fine. How much would you expect from a 0.2 power draw gizmo for a utility slot, really?

 

[ciger]

Good points. However:

1. When you fight a decent opponent he will almost always have his nose pointed on you. Thus you need it MOST of the time
2. Thats true. This part of the mechanic is probably fine. Chaff removes the advantage of gimbals.
3. As I said, yes I know we can use more than one chaff launcher. But how do I fire them alternatingly when I use the hotkey? I thought that was only possible with fire groups (maybe I miss something here?)
4. Yeah, sure. But I have only 10 charges. The last good fight I had lasted at least several minutes. I ran out of chaff long before the fight was over.

even if bound to a key it fires one at a time and alternates between your equipped chaffs

 

[Eleonore Nali]

3. As I said, yes I know we can use more than one chaff launcher. But how do I fire them alternatingly when I use the hotkey? I thought that was only possible with fire groups (maybe I miss something here?)

That's true, but is not a balance problem with chaff specifically but rather a general interface issue. Shield cell banks have the exact same problem. You can only use firegroup juggling to circumvent this (or macro cheats).

 

[jgm]

Not sure what you'd want chaff to do over and above what it already does. I could go with adding more ammo to it, and having different chaff launchers with different levels of effectiveness/duration, but given that you're spending 100 credits to negate potentially 10s of millions of credits of weapon I think making it significantly more effective would imbalance the game.

And if the player resorts to untargetting you when you drop chaff it's doing its job: the player chose gimballed weapons for a reason and you're forcing them in to a less-preferred mode. It will, by definition, make them less effective.


All that said I would like to see chaff reworked to be a longer-duration area-of-effect feature. Give you the ability to lay down a chaff cloud through which gimbals and turrets just can't lock on, and make it part of the fight. Allow you to drop as many as you have as quickly as you like to build walls against other ships.

 

[soma]

It sounds like you want 1 chaff launcher to make you completely immune against gimbal weapons, which would be utterly OP.
Chaff as it is is fine. How much would you expect from a 0.2 power draw gizmo for a utility slot, really?

Hmm no, not really

I am currently trying to analyze why I seem to be doing less well in fights since I ditched gimbals and tried to get good with fixed (I think I am a pretty decent shot by now. Not the best, but I can hit things just fine). My current conclusion is that I am currently not able to use Chaff effective enough to not feel at a disadvantage when I fight an opponent with gimbals.

Ultimately I am trying to decide if I want to stay with fixed weapons or go back to gimbals myself. I was just trying to get some opinions of other players who use mainly fixed weapons. If most players with fixed find Chaff balanced as it is, then it probably means that I just need to get better or give up on fixed..

 

[Derath]

The problem with chaff is utility slots are at a premium due to the addition of boosters, prior to boosters many combat ships would run 2x chaff to alternate.

While you can unlock them and operate as fixed that still takes time, they have less accuracy than the fixed they mimic as well as a worse damage profile.

I think chaff has its place, but the problem is shield boosters work against everything the same issue is had with point defences currently why reduce damage from missiles when you can just have overall shielding? The issue isn't one of chaff being weak its just that the works against anything module is the strongest currently.

 

[bamber]

Just been thinking about this

Sensors work on heat not reflection, therefore should we not be dropping flares not chaff to confuse gimbals?

 

[soma]

Not sure what you'd want chaff to do over and above what it already does. I could go with adding more ammo to it, and having different chaff launchers with different levels of effectiveness/duration, but given that you're spending 100 credits to negate potentially 10s of millions of credits of weapon I think making it significantly more effective would imbalance the game.

And if the player resorts to untargetting you when you drop chaff it's doing its job: the player chose gimballed weapons for a reason and you're forcing them in to a less-preferred mode. It will, by definition, make them less effective.


All that said I would like to see chaff reworked to be a longer-duration area-of-effect feature. Give you the ability to lay down a chaff cloud through which gimbals and turrets just can't lock on, and make it part of the fight. Allow you to drop as many as you have as quickly as you like to build walls against other ships.

Not sure what I want either. As I said I was mainly trying to get some opinions, such as yours. Thanks

Yes, Longer duration would be appreciated. More charges would also be nice. Fight one player with gimbals and you basically need to go back to rearm. The Chaff cloud also sounds like a nice idea.

- - - Updated - - -

even if bound to a key it fires one at a time and alternates between your equipped chaffs

Thanks

 

[HeavyGroovez]

I usually fire a cloud off and reverse through it. Cheesy but effective.

 

[jgm]

Fight one player with gimbals and you basically need to go back to rearm.

Yeah FD's ammo for utility mounts has always been a bit strange. At the one extreme you have point defence with more cumulative power than a class 4 plasma accelerator, and at the other you have chaff with what appears to be a very limited amount of aluminium foil.

- - - Updated - - -

I usually fire a cloud off and reverse through it. Cheesy but effective.

Isn't the cloud just a graphical effect? From my (very limited) experience it seems that dropping chaff gives you a specific amount of time where the gimbals will have difficulty locking on to you rather than affecting an area of space.

 

[PhazonAran]

That's true, but is not a balance problem with chaff specifically but rather a general interface issue. Shield cell banks have the exact same problem. You can only use firegroup juggling to circumvent this (or macro cheats).

Not for the chaffs. If you have several launchers equipped, using the hotkey will alternate between your launchers by firing only one at a time

Isn't the cloud just a graphical effect? From my (very limited) experience it seems that dropping chaff gives you a specific amount of time where the gimbals will have difficulty locking on to you rather than affecting an area of space.

That is right. For example, if you're chasing someone and someone fly between you and your target while chaffing, his chaffs won't affect your targeting.

 

[Stiffmaister]

I think the balancing of combat should give an edge to the player that can master the fixed weapon loadout...maybe give more damage to fixed weapon because at the moment there are not real advantages investing time to try to learn aiming with fixed weapons. That is just my humble opinion but I must admit I'm not very deep into the PvP so I can be badly wrong

 

[jgm]

I think the balancing of combat should give an edge to the player that can master the fixed weapon loadout...maybe give more damage to fixed weapon because at the moment there are not real advantages investing time to try to learn aiming with fixed weapons. That is just my humble opinion but I must admit I'm not very deep into the PvP so I can be badly wrong

Fixed weapons do higher damage than the equivalent gimballed version.

 

[soma]

I think the balancing of combat should give an edge to the player that can master the fixed weapon loadout...maybe give more damage to fixed weapon because at the moment there are not real advantages investing time to try to learn aiming with fixed weapons. That is just my humble opinion but I must admit I'm not very deep into the PvP so I can be badly wrong

Fixed weapons do already have slightly higher damage. However it is countered by the tracking ability of gimbals, which lets gimbal users take shots that fixed users cant.

 

[PhazonAran]

I think the balancing of combat should give an edge to the player that can master the fixed weapon loadout...maybe give more damage to fixed weapon because at the moment there are not real advantages investing time to try to learn aiming with fixed weapons. That is just my humble opinion but I must admit I'm not very deep into the PvP so I can be badly wrong

Fixed weapons already do 25-30% (I think, think I saw some tests proving it) more damage than gimballed weapons Turrets do even less.

 

[Stiffmaister]

Yes..what I'm tryin' to say is that the little higher damage at the moment is not a viable "decision maker" to invest time in mastering the fixed weapons because of the high accuracy, hit rate and attack angles of the gimballed weapons. Still i prefere gimballed weapons, un-locking the target if he is chaffing.

Edit: 25%-30% is not a little higher damage...though gimballed weapons are still generally the best choice for me...

 

[kingchub]

chaff is fine imo