The Death Penalty: would Elite Dangerous be better off without it?

Mengy

Mengy
Dying in Elite Dangerous can be punishing. Insurance costs for the larger ships can be tens of millions, explorers can lose months of gameplay due to one interdiction or collision, traders can lose both their ship and their cargo due to death, bounty hunters can lose hours of bounties due to one bad decision. Because of this it's only natural that players attempt to minimize the risks in order to not lose everything, because building up to that Anaconda can take months of real world time. Exploring out to the far reaches of the galaxy isn't quick nor simple to do. This tension, this risk, is part of what has always made Elite a fantastic game, much like how similar risks make rogue-likes so engrossing to many people.

But this version of Elite is also in an online and persistent universe. There are no save game files, there are no takebacks. And yet even though we have one online galaxy the game is divided into separate worlds: those who play together, and those who play alone, and these two worlds do not have equal risks versus rewards.

I see lots of posts daily complaining of player greifing, lack of people around in game, open versus solo/private, Power Play not being worthwhile, etc. Most of these issues, when boiled down to their root causes, are simply due to the death penalty. High risk versus low reward. It's what chases explorers and traders into solo mode, it's what prevents people from pledging to a faction power, it's what keeps the combat people grinding merits in solo as opposed to open. So, what if death wasn't such a big deal?

Just imagine it for a second. No death penalty other than being kicked back to the last station you were docked in and losing your cargo. No insurance cost, no risk of getting kicked out of your clipper and back into a sidewinder, no weeks of exploration taken away by a wing of players, no loss of bounties for attempting to bite off more than you can chew at that nav beacon. What would an Elite like that be like? Would it be a better game or would it break the game completely?

Why do we play ED? For most of us, I'd wager at least 90%, we play to have fun and enjoy ourselves. With that in mind, would the game be more fun or less fun with the only penalty for death being loss of cargo and a quick trip back to where you came from?

Think about it that kind of game. Traders who don't give up playing due to pirates. Explorers who risk dogfighting with hunters stalking community goal stations. Power Play hot spots full of PvP. Miners arming themselves and brazenly flying about in open mode. With an online galaxy full of people flying around it now due to the risks being more equal to the rewards, would we even need a solo mode?


Would that kind of Elite Dangerous, one with very little penalty for dying, be a better and more fun game, or not?
 

vanrael

V
I guess that game would be more fun for said "griefers", because there wont be any risk for them other than re spawn... And ask yourself where would go "Dangerous" from title "Elite : Dangerous" if recklessness and stupidity wouldn't be punished...
It would break whole fun of playing... because when you start to feel to comfortable, to safe.. to reckless.. its when game start to being boring..
 

Alex Brentnall

Alex Brentnall
I tend to find my most interesting and enjoyable encounters in games come at the riskiest of times.

I still remember a game of Age of Empires I played years and years ago where I launched an attack with all my forces only to be attacked myself once they were too far away to help. The tension of being 2 hours into the game and needing to find and destroy the enemy king (regicide gamemode) with seconds before my own was killed was immense and overcoming the challenge/adrenaline still sticks with me now.
Recently I snuck back into the human bubble with 97 gameplay hours of exploration data, watching that contacts menu and radar was so tense then working out docking etc. Great once it clicked and I was safe, makes the game imo

Yes it would be interesting to have a sandbox server (single system or something) where you can play about with the ship editor and do some free for all combat etc. I think CQC will bring that though once the X-box crowd release it to us :)
 
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Robert Maynard

Volunteer Moderator
Robert Maynard
Mengy said:
Would that kind of Elite Dangerous, one with very little penalty for dying, be a better and more fun game, or not?
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It would trivialise loss and therefore combat, in my opinion. The only players who would have bought anything that they could lose are traders - so it would not seem to improve their lot relative to other roles, rather it would seem to make it relatively worse.
 

Starbuckz

Starbuckz
Once you reach the point of 10 mio insurance you won't even need two hours to get it back. There is no real penalty for death in this game.
 

mossfoot

mossfoot
Risk and consequence is a key part of having fun, in my opinion. And if you're playing a game where you're imagining living the life of a ship captain, being your own Han Solo or Malcolm Reynolds... how are you having fun if there is no serious risk?

The game would be MUCH less fun if there was no death or penalty for ship destruction. Even frickin LEGO games have a penalty for getting killed ;)
 

FAAmecanic

FAAmecanic
Im usually not a big death penalty fan...but for ED I am. The only thing I would like see changed is:

1) STOP with the hull loss due to interdiction/or interdicting. You cant avoid being interdicted by NPCs, and right now NPCs are interdict happy morons. I am max rep with Imperial yet the Imperial police (or system) police continue to pull me out of SC just to say HI!

2) you should not loose months of exploration data if you auger in. Loose ship...yes.... loose insurance costs...yes.... end up back at the last station...yes.

HOWEVER: I do agree with the increase in Open play if the penalties weren't so severe. I don't mind loosing my butt if I make a stupid mistake (boost out of a station and miss slot, hit a star because Im not paying attention, getting nuked because I decided my ASP could take a Elite Fed Dropship on that was armed with Rail guns, Particle accel, and deadly aim at my powerplant.... ahem.... ). But to loose to some griever or 14 yr old that just wants to blow people up is not my cup of tea. IRL you would be VERY selective of who you screw with because the risk to yourself is just as big.
 
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Mengy

Mengy
Robert Maynard said:
It would trivialise loss and therefore combat, in my opinion. The only players who would have bought anything that they could lose are traders - so it would not seem to improve their lot relative to other roles, rather it would seem to make it relatively worse.
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I agree with this sentiment, yet as an online game with one persistent game world, is it better to have people playing together or to have people hiding in private galaxies due to the loss being too great when compared to playing with others?




It just seems to me like there needs to be a better risk vs reward balance or eventually we'll see most of the playerbase going to solo and open will just end up feeling like another private server anyway. The way the game is now if feels very lopsided towards one mode over the other for everyone other than combat people.
 
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obliterator

O
The risk of losing something makes that thing feel more meaningful, and that feeling of risk adds a thrill to the game. When there's no death penalty, dying isn't a big deal anymore, and suddenly there is no feeling of risk, and no thrill.

Yes, removing the death penalty would allow more player interaction, but that interaction would feel like a joke. You wouldn't fear them, they wouldn't fear you, and everyone would behave stupidly.
 
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hawkenfox

hawkenfox
No liablity ? How lazy is that!

It's already a terrible update with poor gameplay don't make it worst.
 
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ste

S
If you reduce the death penalty people will stop caring if they die, they lose the fear of life preservation, suicidal playstyles become more viable, laws mean nothing, rules are not important. Danger and excitement are completely removed.
 

Trafalgar Law

Trafalgar Law
If you want people to play in open and take part in pvp, then removing the death penalty is the best way to do it. It's the reason I stay in group or solo. Besides being defeated is penalty enough.
 

ste

S
I'am dead against removing consequences from the game but maybe it can be a little harsh at times, I have zero sympathy for people flying without insurance cos that was their stupid choice and when your ship cost many millions maybe you should be able to afford to lose once or twice.

But explorers out for months that can lose the lot is very harsh. Maybe this should survive death. Other than that though, I dunno. I would be willing to accept a slight nerf on death if it encourages people not to sit in solo or to log off if they think they are about to die and things.

I would also say the only people who should be able to save outside a spacestation is the explorers, maybe ships that carry fuel scoops can save their progress, but other ships need to dock.
 
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Alex Brentnall

Alex Brentnall
ste said:
I'am dead against removing consequences from the game but maybe it can be a little harsh at times, I have zero sympathy for people flying without insurance cos that was their stupid choice and when your ship cost many millions maybe you should be able to afford to lose once or twice.

But explorers out for months that can lose the lot is very harsh. Maybe this should survive death. Other than that though, I dunno. I would be willing to accept a slight nerf on death if it encourages people not to sit in solo or to log off if they think they are about to die and things.

I would also say the only people who should be able to save outside a spacestation is the explorers, maybe ships that carry fuel scoops can save their progress, but other ships need to dock.
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As a minor member of the exploration community I feel most people are in agreement that you should be able to recover exploration data in a wreckage site for 50% of its value. So yes you get a penalty on death but its not as big a deal as before (still very significant).
I hope something comes along when the Thargoids come because the comparatively low profits for explorers (without Li Young-Rui bonus) will make it treacherous for them :D
 
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