The Difference Between PvP and "Griefing"

[StarfireIX]

Hello everyone!

This thread is probably going to be a long one, since much of the discussion on the forums is about "griefing". So let's dive into it!


So what is griefing?

Griefing in Elite is the motion of killing a player that doesn't consent to it. It may be either pulling a player who is unarmed, or someone that has a docking computer. Unfortunately, the only way to tell if the player is being 'griefed', is either they argue with the killer (it may be in-game or through social media), or complain on the forums/reddit.


Some definitions of 'griefing' listed here:

"A griefer is a player in a multiplayer video game who deliberately irritates and angers other players within the game, using aspects of the game in unintended ways." - Wikepedia

"Griefing is the act of irritating and angering people in video games through the use of destruction, construction, or social engineering. Popularized in Minecraft by teams, griefing has become a serious problem for server administrators who wish to foster building and protect builders." - Minecraft

Surprisingly.. The definition of Elite's issue in Open matches the definition for Minecraft? WHAT?!?


So get to the point.. Why are PvPers being called "griefers"?

The PvP Community has a large amount of players that do various things that may look like it's griefing, but most of it isn't.. especially if it is consensual or not. One such particular area that isn't griefing is PowerPlay. This area may seem boring for those looking for a profit, but when it comes to the Empire and Federation, PvP is massive at Headquarters and Expansions. This is because these superpowers are abundant with players, not to mention Lore that encourages the activity. When you kill a player Fed or Imp, the game awards you with merits and helps whatever objective the power is aiming for.


If that's the case, then what about Community Goals?

Community Goals are more of a hub for random PvP, which very much depends on the scenario if it really is "griefing" or not. Since CQC is barely used by anyone (yet constantly updated with no significant changes), much of the PvPers go there because it's where most players hang out at. If the CG is both combat and trade (or there's only one CG active), I will guarantee that the first player you will see in supercruise is a PvPer.

In regards to the term "griefing", the only term it would apply to is Station Ganking. So what is station ganking? It's the motive of crashing a weak ship into a docking ship that is speeding. Immediately after you gain the bounty, the station kills you for it.


So how can we fix it? (TL;DR)

Here's a list of some proposed changes to avoid unnecessary arguments and duplicate threads:

- Make CQC a diverse and fun PvP experience. I don't care if the game's Lore says it only has 'Fighter Combat'. Make it so that we can Import our own ships in!
- In addition with the CQC Improvement, add a Mission Builder where beta testers and combatants can customize their ships, engineer rolls, etc. Without any grind. In exchange, CQC rank progression doesn't apply and your opponents are NPCs. (However, an option may be given to invite your friend to the scenario)
- Increase the speed limit of stations to 130-150m/s (Optional, but just an idea to throw out there). If necessary, make it so that when a ship is cleared for docking, no bounties are applied to him/her whatsoever. However, if the docking ship shoots at a clean ship, the station or fires inside the station. The station will be authorized to destroy the ship.
- Increase bounty payouts from 1m CR to 2-3m CR.
- If a player logs to main menu in PvP, the player's ship will not disappear, more or so given the chance to be destroyed by the opponent. If all players have left the instance, the logger's ship will disappear. How the logger's outcome may be? It could be a rebuy screen if destroyed or a fine that costs half the player's ship rebuy.
- If the logger used Task Manager or any way to close the game faster than the timer, a ban from Open is applied in the following way:
1. First log = 2 hours.
2. Second log = 5 hours.
3. Third log = 12 hours.
4. Fourth log = 24 hours.
5. Final log = 48 hours + rebuy screen.
6. Next log starts again at First log. (Repeat)


Personally, these changes would benefit both Traders, Explorers and the PvP Community. As well as a much more improved experience of playing Elite. Please consider the following proposals, Frontier. There's no harm in testing new things that can make an impact to this game.


What can I do for the mean time?

If you're a trader in Open, make sure you have shields with no Docking Computers. Having a docking computer and/or no shields will likely get you destroyed by PvPers. Remember to fly under 100 m/s when docking, as station ganking is still present in 2.3. If you get killed by someone the first time, don't risk that again and go into Private Group or Solo Mode. There are alternatives like submitting an interdiction and high waking without getting destroyed. Though it requires a lot of practice and quick thinking to master it.



If you are a combat person and want to learn more about PvP (Player Vs Player), we have a discord server setup to teach and guide players in terms of builds, combat, and skill. You can join the "Galactic Combat Initiative" here: https://discord.gg/jqkJ4z7



If you made it at the end of the thread description.. Congratulations! For those who didn't, here is a brief TL;DR of what was discussed here:

- The definition of "griefing" in Elite is identical to Minecraft's definition. PowerPlay and Community Goal PvP is considered non-griefing, except for station ganking and may depend on the player getting killed. And proposed changes are listed above. (You will see a text in bold with "TL;DR" at the end)



There can be so much to discuss in regards to griefing and PvP, but I'll leave it as it is from now. Would the proposed changes work for you? Should Combat Logging or griefing be treated in a different way from what we see it today? Feel free to discuss your thoughts and opinions on the matter. (As long as it doesn't turn into arguments)



Fly Imperial, Commanders.


- CMDR StarfireIX

 

[Minonian]

First of all? If you looks alike a cat you sounds like a cat, act like a cat, than you are a cat.

Second, where you are at mistaken to think PVE-ers just don't know PVP and that's their problem with it. No! They don't "want to git gud". They don't want PVP.

 

[amysteriousstranger]

Everyone's opinion about what a griefer is or if they even exist is entirely the thoughts of the indervidual

A better and more accurate term would be "morally different"

Those commonly known as griefers, they don't care about people in the game and choose to costs them resources or credits and time and usually respond by saying something like "you can earn that back in 10 mins"

Perhaps, but not always on your first day or week, when I first started two of my friends were killed over and over, quit the game and never returned
Some of these people who suffered great losses at the hands of such players would become "morally different" and may seek easy kills themselves to feel better about what happened to them

Me, I joined Adle's Armarda and choose a "morally" different path, to protect rather than murder

ive even been called a griefer for not letting these people in corvettes murder sidewinders because I'm ruining their gameplay, when in reality we all just have a different opinion on what is right and acceptable

I'd class certain players and groups as griefers, and that's my opinion and what I do about it is simply a matter of perspective


Also speed limits increase NO, they are there because people would easily nudge a sidewinder at about 150 and kill them with no repercussions, it is as easy to exploit and get free ramming kills all day long

I like your idea for logging off in combat without the timer(pulling the plug) but I don't think it's possible with P2P

 

[Crimson Kaim]

The suggestions you have stated are nonesense. They are not harsh enough for both sides.

First we need a proper crime and punishment system where wanted players are actually trated like wanted palyers and not like a shopping mall customer that docks everywhere to smuggle some biowaste.
There are many good suggestions for a proper C&P system. The upcoming change to rebuys is NOT an overhaul to the existing C&P system, it is soley a slight change/addition to the rebuy system for PvP exclusive actions - a tiny fraction of what has to be done.
Won't go into detailed suggestions, feel free to look for my other posts. Won't repeat myself another time except for this TL;DR version:

Punishment outside credit penalties for PvP murder crimes: Deny docking requests, G5 engineered police NPCs that instantly hunt down wanted CMDRs in major superpower space, G5 modded bounty hunter NPCs, inability to claim bounties, inability to claim PvP bounties, PvP bounties do not decay but can be paid back, PvP bounties are equal to target's/victim's rebuy cost upon destruction, PvP bounties claimed are as high as wanted CMDR's rebuy costs, BGS reputation penalties or benefits (depending on faction type for example pirate and anarchy factions give you a BGS benefit while lawful factions give you a penalty) and last but not least instant station fire on wanted CMDRs with a PvP bounty of 10m or higher.

This is the TL;DR version and IMO I do not see a reason why we shouldn't do that. It encourages PvP bounty hunting as credit payouts are high enough to justify PvP at all, wanted players finally recieve the danger and threat they are looking for (Heck, I'd be a criminal for the kick!) and suffer significant penalties outside of credit resources as credits are inflated and worth nothing. Any newbie can grind an Anaconda in a week today.

EDIT: Oh, and obviously:

1st Combat Log = rebuy screen + 24 hours Open Play ban
2nd Combat Log = rebuy screen + 7 days Open Play ban
3rd Combat Log = rebuy screen + 3 months Open Play ban
4th Combat Log = 3rd Combat Log

Once a palyer has played in Open for the ban time (example: 24 hours banned - > 24 hours played ban-o-meter decreases one level to 0. Or 3 months ban -> 3 months played (6 months of penalty in total) ban-o-meter decreases to 2 so he still has to play 7 days + 24 hours to get to 0 again. If he logs again with a ban-o-meter of 2 he recieves a 7 day ban and goes up to 3).

 

[kofeyh]

I am sorry, I stopped reading when you defined CQC as the (or mostly the) solution. The only people resisting an improved C&P system, ironically, have been Frontier. Everyone else knows this should be coming. And the Pilots Federation Bounty, that will now take into consideration PowerPlay means a more structured PVP option, in game, is being encouraged. This has the PF Bounty as a bit of a stick from a mechanics standpoint.

Issue is, essentially, people are constantly moving the boundaries and endlessly, endlessly redefining ganking as griefing, and vice versa, to suit any particular agenda. Given Frontier have just come off the back of a ton of work to rebalance the PF Bounty to better work with Powerplay, I am actually massively encouraged that they will take another stab at some of the other elements of the criminal code. There are a number of options; this isn't the problem; it's getting them into the game and tested.

PF Bounty system is a start; it's contextually aware of powerplay now so this is going to actually improve the value powerplay brings to the game; in fact it's something I am about to get back into. We don't need to endlessly redefine the thing; Frontier just has to put the time in to address it. Again, given we've had that with the PF Bounty, with it going through some iterations to find something that mostly works for most people, it gives me a lot more hope in general.

Efforts to support that, rather than endlessly try to redefine it, may be a lot more constructive. It's a start. Something to be encouraged. Absolutely. Clouding the message, trying to redefine it, just makes it all the harder for us to gain traction on it. Arguments over semantics haven't worked for two+ years. Frontier knows there is work to do, encouraging this continues to be our shared task.

Fly safe.

 

[GaryII]

EDIT: Oh, and obviously:

1st Combat Log = rebuy screen + 24 hours Open Play ban
2nd Combat Log = rebuy screen + 7 days Open Play ban
3rd Combat Log = rebuy screen + 3 months Open Play ban
4th Combat Log = 3rd Combat Log

As FD stated before, there is no 100 % reliable way to detect combat log, so in your proposal if Elite crashes, internet disconnects, PC crash etc you can end up with rebuy screen and ban

 

[StiTch]

1) Anyone that suggests CQC is developed as "the PvP outlet" will never be taken seriously. It's the equivalent of yelling at PvEers "BUT IT'S CALLED ELITE DANGEROUS!". Don't get me wrong, I'd be happy to see it developed anyway; it's just its own different experience.

2) I am glad minecraft lets you take the perspective that any destructive action can be labelled "griefing" On the other hand FD's actual definition of griefing refers to repeated singling out of a target in order to harass them. That's what they encourage use of the block and report functions for.

Just a heads up. Let's not be party to the encouragement of reporting everyone that looks at you funny.

 

[CMDR Cosmic Spacehead]

The problem is, the word "griefing" has replaced "murder".

Now if anyone kills anyone else, it's griefing.

Basically it's entirely on the victim to process the experience properly, not just assume everyone is a murder hobo.

People are even calling pirates griefers now. It's basically gotten silly, and those people shouldn't be taken seriously anymore(if they ever were?). Lol

There are plenty of legitimate reasons to kill anyone. PowerPlay, CG opposition, non compliance to piracy, or just cuz' your ship name offends them, or whatever.
It's only really griefing if they target you, and only you, repeatedly. Or use the station ramming exploit.

CMDR Cosmic Spacehead

 

[Crimson Kaim]

As FD stated before, there is no 100 % reliable way to detect combat log, so in your proposal if Elite crashes, internet disconnects, PC crash etc you can end up with rebuy screen and ban

You are responsible for providing a stable internet connection that meets the requiernments of Open Play (and all disadvanatages of P2P). If you experience frequent DCs then don't play Open. I don't care if it is intentionally or not. DC or log, rebuy screen period. If I'd experience a combat DC when I am losing I'd show up and let myself be killed because I was losing. It's just fair. I am responsible for providing a stable connection and if I fail in doing so I must face the penalties.

 

[Jack Schitt]

This thread is probably going to be a long one [...]

I wouldn't put money on that.

 

[Hairy Polo]

Yep, totally agree with Cmdr Cosmic Spaceheads comment.

 

[rrobes]

Previously discussed.

Everyone that feels they have "the" answer should read previous threads on the subject and self censor.

Should close as duplicate.

 

[Minonian]

I guess people just don't like to randomly blown out of the sky, while minding their own business, and with it their day ruined.

Reason enough to call it griefing.

 

[lysan]

First of all? If you looks alike a cat you sounds like a cat, act like a cat, than you are a cat.

Second, where you are at mistaken to think PVE-ers just don't know PVP and that's their problem with it. No! They don't "want to git gud". They don't want PVP.

Let me say amen to that

I love games like DayZ SA, PVP ONLY, in ED not so much for numerous reasons, that is why Private groups like Mobius is such a nice place to be.

 

[PeLucheuh]

So what is griefing?

Griefing in Elite is the motion of killing a player that doesn't consent to it. It may be either pulling a player who is unarmed, or someone that has a docking computer. Unfortunately, the only way to tell if the player is being 'griefed', is either they argue with the killer (it may be in-game or through social media), or complain on the forums/reddit.

This definition is incorrect because it implies there is no griefing in Elite : by clicking OPEN, the player consent to its rules and functionalities. Shooting at others being a non optional multiplayer game core design, you consent to the possibility of killing a player or be killed by a player in a game taking place in a cutthroat galaxy.

But there are in fact very specific situation called griefing involving harassement or exploit of game mechanics :

- Killing new CMDRs over and over is harassment and can be considered griefing (even if there is the solution of other modes) because we can all admit a new player can't be aware of all the game mechanics and rules and is learning them.
- Station ganking is not a griefing situation at first because it can be easily avoided by simply going under the speed limit BUT it becomes a griefing situation if there is another CMDRs using force shell cannon to push the ship over the speed limit (exploit of game mechanic).
- Another example was the SDC operation Healies4Feelies (<- griefing but also emergent gameplay)

But killing a player can't be considered griefing because it is based on a multiplayer game core design and can be avoided by using already existing in-game tools.

 

[lysan]

This definition is incorrect because it implies there is no griefing in Elite : by clicking OPEN, the player consent to its rules and functionalities. Shooting at others being a non optional multiplayer game core design, you consent to the possibility of killing a player or be killed by a player in a game taking place in a cutthroat galaxy.

But there are in fact very specific situation called griefing involving harassement or exploit of game mechanics :

- Killing new CMDRs over and over is harassment and can be considered griefing (even if there is the solution of other modes) because we can all admit a new player can't be aware of all the game mechanics and rules and is learning them.
- Station ganking is not a griefing situation at first because it can be easily avoided by simply going under the speed limit BUT it becomes a griefing situation if there is another CMDRs using force shell cannon to push the ship over the speed limit (exploit of game mechanic).
- Another example was the SDC operation Healies4Feelies

But killing a player can't be considered griefing because it is based on a multiplayer game core design and can be avoided by using already existing in-game tools.

I agree, OPEN = PVP

if you don't like PVP =>SOLO or Private groups.

 

[Minonian]

Let me say amen to that

I love games like DayZ SA, PVP ONLY, in ED not so much for numerous reasons, that is why Private groups like Mobius is such a nice place to be.

Have you ever played with Multi FPS-es? I did a lot my favorite was doom, and UT's and i'm good at it. although did not brothered myself with this sort of games for years, non the less. I love PVP i just simply don't think it have any validity in a game when random death out of the big stinky nothing have lasting and serious consequences.

If you want this, find a game, / make a game mode where death does not means to lose sometimes weeks of painstaking work.

Edit; That angers people and with a pretty good reason!

 

[GreyAreaUK]

I agree, OPEN = PVP

Not exclusively.

It would be more accurate to say that Open is the primary mode in which PVP occurs.

 

[Crank Larson]

Here's a list of some proposed changes to avoid unnecessary arguments and duplicate threads

Yeah, good luck with that. Because this thread isn't a duplicate with unnecessary arguments already... In fact, in my opinion, all of your proposals would be awful.

 

[Crank Larson]

You are responsible for providing a stable internet connection that meets the requiernments of Open Play (and all disadvanatages of P2P). If you experience frequent DCs then don't play Open. I don't care if it is intentionally or not. DC or log, rebuy screen period. If I'd experience a combat DC when I am losing I'd show up and let myself be killed because I was losing. It's just fair. I am responsible for providing a stable connection and if I fail in doing so I must face the penalties.

What a ridiculous statement. When I'm responsible for something, it is my fault if it fails. I pay for my internet connection - the responsibility to provide it lies with my ISP. Fortunately, mine is pretty good. But it still goes flaky sometimes. To suggest that flaky internet could be used as an excuse to penalise players is daft (and fortunately, FD will not do this).