The dreaded "G" word

[M00ka]

Yes fellow Commanders, this is yet another post about that terrible word "GRIND"!

It seems never every new thread here has at least one post that complains about the grind factor (whether legitimate or not) of ED. This has me a little confused, every game, especially online games, have a grind factor don't they?
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First up, let me see if I have the definition of GRIND right: The condition of repetitious actions to gain some reward within the game. Does that meet the criteria?
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Looking at the games I have played online, I can identify that condition in everyone of them. I played BF2 for a long time (probably too much lol) and that definitely had grind. You had to play, you had to meet objectives, yes even for the squeamish here, you had to kill other players to advance in the game. There were ranks and badges to aim for and to achieve those rewards you had to complete certain actions for a predetermined amount of time. Yet the strange thing is you rarely heard anyone complaining about it in the various forums.
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Back to ED now. Yes there are repetitious actions required to advance, pray tell how else are you going to advance? Nearly everyone is a little proud of what ranking they have achieved, they just don't like admitting they participated in the alleged grind to get there. For those who are most vocal against the grind factor, how else do you expect to earn the credits to buy that next ship you want? There are so many different ways the developers have come up with for a player to make credits and advance in the game. Yet people still complain, I just wonder how many have tried everything in the game or just took the one path and played that to death.
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Unfortunately, I suspect some who do complain were expecting things in the game to be given to them for little or no effort. Once they found out they actually had to put some time in before they could buy the A Class Anaconda or Python, the crying started.
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Anyway, this is my opinion, I know many will disagree but that is the beauty of the forums, one can express their opinion if they are willing to support it.

 

[Robert Maynard]

Oh, you meant "grind" - that's fine then, carry on!

 

[NVNM]

Unfortunately, I suspect some who do complain were expecting things in the game to be given to them for little or no effort. Once they found out they actually had to put some time in before they could buy the A Class Anaconda or Python, the crying started.

You willfully conflate effort with dull and repetitive gameplay.

 

[Steve50]

Personally I believe it's a simple mindset thing. Let's be honest ANYTHING repetitive in life could be seen as "Grinding" having to sleep every day.. Having to work , having to eat.. etc etc.

I see it this way, if I'm enjoying myself and having fun then nothing else matters. As long as I'm enjoying the game it doesn't matter if I'm making 10m cr per hour or 10cr per hour. If I'm in the mood for mining,I'll mine.. If I'm in the mood for trading I'll trade. What I'm earning has no really importance to me. (No, I'm not rich)

The day I see a game not as fun and entertaining but a boring and dull "grind", then that is the day I'll stop playing.

Thankfully after 30 years that's not happened with Elite yet

 

[TheDude1972]

I never had a GRIND in this game, it's not the way I play and I'm in an ASP without the grinding so it's possible! I do think the variations are to little with what you can actually do (mission and PP wise). But grinding never, that is a choice you make and yes it's in every game or else gameplay hours in games would be in minutes

But the game could use much more content, that is something I will always say

 

[Banana's_Are_Good_For_You]

Okay, so the thing about this game is you have to "grind" missions to get anywhere.
But like has been said, there is grinding to every game.

The simple solution to games that have "grinding" at their core is to offer distractions. Something that takes you off your boring existence and offers you something of interest. It's a content thing.
Another thing that makes things less "grindy" (not even a word but w/e) is variety. Branching missions with variable outcomes can make so much of a difference.
From 1.3, I've seen a mission where it's not just one ship you kill, 2 others appear. If they can elaborate on that and add mission text options then things could become far more interesting. So, I hope they're working on that because multiple encounters seem possible. If variable options can be added as well then things may get a bit more interesting.

 

[M00ka]

You willfully conflate effort with dull and repetitive gameplay.

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It is only dull and repetitive if you let it be that, if you get bored with one thing, try something else, or make it more difficult for the challenge. I was getting bored with my Vulture, found nothing was giving me a challenge, so I swapped out the weapons to lower grade ones. Now I have to try that little bit harder.

Personally I believe it's a simple mindset thing. Let's be honest ANYTHING repetitive in life could be seen as "Grinding" having to sleep every day.. Having to work , having to eat.. etc etc.

I see it this way, if I'm enjoying myself and having fun then nothing else matters. As long as I'm enjoying the game it doesn't matter if I'm making 10m cr per hour or 10cr per hour. If I'm in the mood for mining,I'll mine.. If I'm in the mood for trading I'll trade. What I'm earning has no really importance to me. (No, I'm not rich)

The day I see a game not as fun and entertaining but a boring and dull "grind", then that is the day I'll stop playing.

Thankfully after 30 years that's not happened with Elite yet

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Well said Steve, and you said what I was trying to express better than I did - thank you!
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I think too many players think they have to follow the combat/bounty hunter/piracy path as it is probably the fastest money earner and that is all they have done before complaining here about the grind. I wonder how many tried the other aspects or just discounted them because they weren't 'kewl enough'!

 

[Parmo]

Oh, you meant "grind" - that's fine then, carry on!

Biting my tongue here!

 

[Wicz]

Unfortunately, I suspect some who do complain were expecting things in the game to be given to them for little or no effort. Once they found out they actually had to put some time in before they could buy the A Class Anaconda or Python, the crying started.

In my opinion the game is a grind fest and the grind appears to increase with each patch. I have all the available ships that I want and money in the bank. I didn't expect things for little or no effort, I simply expected some variety and depth to have been added by now. Unfortunately we appear to have been given more grind instead.

I haven't really played since a few weeks after wings was released.

 

[Ben Ryder]

I see your "Grind" and raise you "Immersion Breaking"

 

[PhanttoM]

Any game that has some kind of progression can be viewed as having grinding.
Whether that be a new gun to unlock (or simply find) in a First Person Shooter, or a new ship in Elite.

Games can of course remove all kinds of grinding, at the cost of gameplay and/or immersion — In Elite: If everyone could start with a fully upgraded Federal Corvette (when it comes out), with no reputation requirements.
A.- How immersive would it be that the Federal military just hands out Corvettes to random people for free?
B.- How much challenge or gameplay would we have skipped if we started with that?

 

[NVNM]

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It is only dull and repetitive if you let it be that

Each of the typical activities in ED follows the same pattern. Spending little time on each activity individually doesn't break that pattern.

 

[PiLhEaD]

I want to share a revelation I had recently.

I had been busy chasing credits, trading rares, first in a T6, and then an Asp. And I confess I wasn't really enjoying what I was doing, as all I was doing was crawling my way ever closer to getting the Python I desire - yet every <snip> time I checked my balance it was always an impossibly l-o-n-g way to go.

The first change came when I removed a hold from my Asp, replacing it with a 'super-duper' scanner, and upgraded the fuel scoop to be 'mega-super', and then, whilst I was still trading rares, I found that I had suddenly stopped thinking about the credits per hour, or indeed any financial reward, and I was simply enjoying being in space. So, when I found an unexplored system with (in one case 40+ bodies) I was stopping to scan each and every darn thing, no matter how long it took, and even popping into a nearby station just to have a look at it.

Then, I realised I had plenty credits for a very slippery Diamondback Scout. So now I am kitted for 12 tons of cargo, with some very naughty weapons, and I've since been taking every mission I can find (preferrably smuggling morally reprehensible 'goods'), and I have long since stopped even thinking about credits. I submit to every interdiction, and if I get toasted (and I haven't yet) 'so what!' it's cheap to replace and only my pride gets hurt.

So, what am I saying? Well to paraphrase The Matrix, 'there is no grind', except that which you put on your own shoulders. There is no winning. There is only the journey.

[/trite]

 

[marx]

In my experience, if you're doing something that you enjoy doing, it's "progression", but if you're doing something that you don't enjoy doing, it's "grinding". Often enough, people grind because they want to get somewhere where they think they'll enjoy something.
For example: in Generic MMORPG, you unlock the Fun Activity only at max level, and until then, your only option is to do the Other Activity until you get there, and you don't enjoy it. But you're still doing it, so you're grinding.
Now, in Elite, the only activity that's locked out until a certain requirement is reached is Power Play, since you need to get to Mostly Harmless (if memory serves).

Of course, you might think that if you want to explore, you'll need over ten million credits to get an Asp, but you're not actually locked out from it - you could start exploring even in a basic Sidewinder. Would you get to an Asp faster if you went trading? Of course. Are you forced to trade to start exploring? Nope.

So basically, whenever somebody's complaining about grinding here, they are doing so because they want to get to their imagined goals in the quickest way possible, which is currently trading, and they don't enjoy that. The problem is forcing yourself to do something you don't enjoy because you're impatient, and it's not because the game locks you out of your desired activity.

 

[AsukaZ]

The secret to avoid "The Grind" in my mind is to mix things up, don't keep doing the same thing for a long time.

I'm guilty of the Grind, grinding trade routes to earn my first few tens of millions.
First I got bored. Then I got annoyed. Then I started to resent doing it.
I believed I 'had' to do it. Then I just didn't want to play anymore.

Then I stopped trading completely, took what I had and went off and did something else.
(Exploring in my case). Then I did want to play again.

Now I'm just taking it slow and casual. No rush. And I'm enjoying myself.
And I'm progressing nicely. I never did 'have' to do that grind in the first place.

That's my experience anyway.

 

[Colonel North]

I prefer a bit of 'twerking' but at my age 'grinding' is the best I can manage :-(

 

[Ghostickles]

...ooops thought this was about Guilds.

 

[Scudmungus]

Street Fighter 2
Syndicate
Counter Strike
Neverwinters Nights
Hotline Miami 1
Civilization
Mario Kart

Bein but some examples of gamin wid strong core game mechanics. Strength meanin designers not needin to pump up de 'experience' wid tricks, like achievments, tread mills an time sinks.

Grind be arbitary. Designer choosin to use it. Askin, wot de intent? Few tings to give in game. Overcome obstacle? Defeatin challenge? Pretty picture. Lovely noise. Text sayin, 'Yuh gud!'. Empowerment.

All dem yah tings can be part of de 'experience' wid no grind. All bein somting dat achieve wid meaninful choices.

Grind be lazy developer trick to extend gamin hours. Trick to add space between content, delay reward. Fatten up de chicken wid water - not enuff meat.

Mi sorry wi educatin new gamers wid poor lessons. Bad design not makin gud teachers.

 

[Hurricane Moon]

Street Fighter 2
Syndicate
Counter Strike
Neverwinters Nights
Hotline Miami 1
Civilization
Mario Kart

Bein but some examples of gamin wid strong core game mechanics. Strength meanin designers not needin to pump up de 'experience' wid tricks, like achievments, tread mills an time sinks.

Grind be arbitary. Designer choosin to use it. Askin, wot de intent? Few tings to give in game. Overcome obstacle? Defeatin challenge? Pretty picture. Lovely noise. Text sayin, 'Yuh gud!'. Empowerment.

All dem yah tings can be part of de 'experience' wid no grind. All bein somting dat achieve wid meaninful choices.

Grind be lazy developer trick to extend gamin hours. Trick to add space between content, delay reward. Fatten up de chicken wid water - not enuff meat.

Mi sorry wi educatin new gamers wid poor lessons. Bad design not makin gud teachers.

every one of your posts is brilliant.....i just cant help reading it back in my head in a jamaican accent mate lol...

you roleplayin or for real?

 

[Jukelo]

There is a rather simple difference between grinding and simply progressing towards your goal: whether you enjoy it or not. This is a gameplay issue. If the gameplay is simply not up to snuff (which is the problem of ED), then it will feel like a grind, because you simply wont enjoy doing it.
And there is almost no escaping it in ED: the gameplay for most professions is underdeveloped, shallow (I'm sure you've heard that one before), uninspired. Meaning, whatever you do, it is down to grinding. You can try and jump from trading to BHing to exploring to tradi- er I mean smuggling to mining, it's all down to doing, over and over again, the same basic tasks which betrays the fact ED doesn't have anybody whose job it is to design engaging and long lasting game mechanics, or that this person doesn't have the power to make decisions.
Piracy brings a bit of hope, but it's a shame that it's the only one, and engaging in it will have lots of players throw OOC abuse your way, in-game and on the forums.